The Real 7 Wonders Of The World (From raelianews.org)

[Richard Uhler]

We are obviously already on a spaceship, of course.

...

--Brant

Sure, but this one keeps going around in circles. I want to see what's going on over at Gliese 581c!

Seriously, I think that humanity has a need for a frontier built into it - not in all humans, but enough that it's an active factor. And we don't really have a frontier at the moment; sooner or later we'll have to create one.

[Richard Uhler]

Many phycisits dreamed of Nuclear powered space craft, designers of the Orion envisioned a 10 story tall building with payloads of thousands of tons which could get to Jupiter in a few months. The nuclear test ban treaty killed that. ...

What if it were built and launched from a sufficiently high orbit - would this legally circumvent the treaty?

You can simulate gravity through acceleration or through rotating. One need not build elaborate ring spaced stations for that though, many plans are in the works to have a 'dumb bell' like module that rotates. An existing craft extends a boom or teather with a counterweight and begins turning. (etc.)

Your post pretty much answers my previous question on this general topic; thanks.

[BaalChatzaf]

I agree with you that today's space program is attrocious and NASA and it's programs have been stifling development in space technology since Apollo.

Burt Rutan, and his Scaled Composities company of 20 employees, designed, built, tested, and flew to space IN 3 YEARS an entirely new kind of space craft. *that* is a wonder, and it is a wonder today how magnificently wastefull and incompetent NASA is. Ultimately the survival of the human species depends on us migrating out into space.

Rutan and his buddies still have to -burn shit- and blow the gas out to lift their craft. There has been very little progress beyond the solid rockets used by the Chinese 2000 years ago. There was a low power ion propelled craft to visit a comet, but the heavy lifting is still done by rockets. That a lot of fuel to lift a relatively small payload and it also means burn and coast. Too much time spent in zero g. Also the necessity of making a craft heavy with sufficient shielding against solar and cosmic radiation makes the rocket an unattractive mode of heavy lifting. You need to have some kind of reaction machine that can accelerate the vessel for long periods then decelerate it near the destination. Zero g coasting is not good for the health of the crew.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

7. Google search

Organizing the world's information and making it universally

accessible and useful!

This item makes the Library of Alexandria seem quaint. A worldwide library that is virtually accessible to all and cannot be easily burned down. The various web-browsers (Google included) are as Oracles. Ask and you will receive an answer. The only problem is separating the Good Stuff from the Nonsense.

The only advantage I can see in a physical library is that it is a location in the real world where flesh and blood humans can meet face to face and interact on in a subtle way that cannot be captured (yet, anyway) in a computerized interconnection. Even video conferencing leaves out the touch and smell of others.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Matus1976]

Rutan and his buddies still have to -burn shit- and blow the gas out to lift their craft. There has been very little progress beyond the solid rockets used by the Chinese 2000 years ago. There was a low power ion propelled craft to visit a comet, but the heavy lifting is still done by rockets. That a lot of fuel to lift a relatively small payload and it also means burn and coast. Too much time spent in zero g. Also the necessity of making a craft heavy with sufficient shielding against solar and cosmic radiation makes the rocket an unattractive mode of heavy lifting. You need to have some kind of reaction machine that can accelerate the vessel for long periods then decelerate it near the destination. Zero g coasting is not good for the health of the crew.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Yes they are still burning shit, but their design elimates all the re-entry problems associated with the Shuttle and will significantly reduce launch costs, and, again, Zubrin's Mars Direct plan is feasible with current technology. Space craft of all kinds will probably continue to 'burn shit' for a long time, especially for reaction thrusters, because the specific impusle is so damn high for chemical engines, though the NSWR has some potential to replace those. But what kind of thruster is even on the horizon that will continue to provide a .5g acceleration for months on end? A 'reaction' machine?

I do a lot of work for the Lifeboat Foundation, which seeks to mitigate the existential threats humanity faces and ensure the continuation of intelligent life. A long term goal of theirs is to faciliatate the construction of self sufficient space stations which can travel to other planets and solar systems. They are hosting an electromagnetic launching competition, I think such a system is one of the best steps we can take for making launches to space less expensive, since the majority of the crafts escape velocity can come from electricity on the ground.

http://lifeboat.com/ex/em

You might be interested in them, a primary goal is facilitating and expanding access to space. Check out the members of the Space Settlement board

The Lifeboat Foundation is a nonprofit nongovernmental organization dedicated to encouraging scientific advancements while helping humanity survive existential risks and possible misuse of increasingly powerful technologies, including genetic engineering, nanotechnology, and robotics/AI, as we move towards a technological singularity.

Lifeboat Foundation is pursuing a variety of options, including helping to accelerate the development of technologies to defend humanity, including new methods to combat viruses (such as RNA interference and new vaccine methods), effective nanotechnological defensive strategies, and even self-sustaining space colonies in case the other defensive strategies fail.

[BaalChatzaf]

a .5g acceleration for months on end? A 'reaction' machine?

Yes. But not a shit burner. Right now we have no other means of applying force than Lorenz Force (which requires a magnetic field) or some kind of engine that tosses mass out the back. Frank Herbert's fictional Heigh Liner which bends space. But that is pure science fiction and has no counterpart in physical theory current or speculative. The most interesting speculation I have seen is the Alcuberre gravity bubble which is the closest thing to "warp drive" have at least some relation to possible physical theory.

I do a lot of work for the Lifeboat Foundation, which seeks to mitigate the existential threats humanity faces and ensure the continuation of intelligent life. A long term goal of theirs is to faciliatate the construction of self sufficient space stations which can travel to other planets and solar systems. They are hosting an electromagnetic launching competition, I think such a system is one of the best steps we can take for making launches to space less expensive, since the majority of the crafts escape velocity can come from electricity on the ground.

A magnetic rail gun (which is really a linear motor not unlike a maglev) is excellent for launching inanimate and not fragile cargo. That will take care of launching pieces of a ship to be assembled in orbit. If the thing is designed it will not be by NASA which is a bloated gummint abomination rooted in the last century.

By the way, why do you care whether humanity survives in the distant future? Unless your descendants are potential beneficiaries what does it matter? Once you are dead you will not care. Our species is an accident and a blip. We will be here a while then we will be gone. In the long run the cosmos will become cold and dead so all futures are dismal and futile. Only the near term can be meaningful in that one can relate to it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Matus1976]

By the way, why do you care whether humanity survives in the distant future? Unless your descendants are potential beneficiaries what does it matter? Once you are dead you will not care. Our species is an accident and a blip. We will be here a while then we will be gone. In the long run the cosmos will become cold and dead so all futures are dismal and futile. Only the near term can be meaningful in that one can relate to it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Is this a serious question? My descendants would be potential beneficiaries, but I don't only care about my *genes* (is that seriously your only source of value?) but life is more valuable to me than non life, a universe in which life exists is one I regard of a higher value than one which it does not, and similiarly a universe where intelligent life exists is something of more value than one where no intelligent life exists. Same for technologically advanced life.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Is this a serious question? My descendants would be potential beneficiaries, but I don't only care about my *genes* (is that seriously your only source of value?) but life is more valuable to me than non life, a universe in which life exists is one I regard of a higher value than one which it does not, and similiarly a universe where intelligent life exists is something of more value than one where no intelligent life exists. Same for technologically advanced life.

Michael,

We are 100% on the same page here. In Brazil, they say I make your words mine. (In the good sense, of course.) That is an excellent summation of valuing on a primary level.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

By the way, why do you care whether humanity survives in the distant future? Unless your descendants are potential beneficiaries what does it matter? Once you are dead you will not care. Our species is an accident and a blip. We will be here a while then we will be gone. In the long run the cosmos will become cold and dead so all futures are dismal and futile. Only the near term can be meaningful in that one can relate to it.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Is this a serious question? My descendants would be potential beneficiaries, but I don't only care about my *genes* (is that seriously your only source of value?) but life is more valuable to me than non life, a universe in which life exists is one I regard of a higher value than one which it does not, and similiarly a universe where intelligent life exists is something of more value than one where no intelligent life exists. Same for technologically advanced life.

When you talk about your descendants your are talking about your genes. That is how humans have descent. By passing genes to their children and their descendants.

And you cannot know for certain whether you line will continue until extinction/destruction or hit a dead end sooner.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Matus1976]

Is this a serious question? My descendants would be potential beneficiaries, but I don't only care about my *genes* (is that seriously your only source of value?) but life is more valuable to me than non life, a universe in which life exists is one I regard of a higher value than one which it does not, and similiarly a universe where intelligent life exists is something of more value than one where no intelligent life exists. Same for technologically advanced life.

Michael,

We are 100% on the same page here. In Brazil, they say I make your words mine. (In the good sense, of course.) That is an excellent summation of valuing on a primary level.

Michael

Thanks MSK. What is the word you use to say that? I have a close friend who is Brazilian and enjoy learning some of the language.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Michael,

Faço das suas palavras minhas.

Michael

[Matus1976]

Is this a serious question? My descendants would be potential beneficiaries, but I don't only care about my *genes* (is that seriously your only source of value?) but life is more valuable to me than non life, a universe in which life exists is one I regard of a higher value than one which it does not, and similiarly a universe where intelligent life exists is something of more value than one where no intelligent life exists. Same for technologically advanced life.

When you talk about your descendants your are talking about your genes. That is how humans have descent. By passing genes to their children and their descendants.

And you cannot know for certain whether you line will continue until extinction/destruction or hit a dead end sooner.

Ba'al Chatzaf

What is the source of things you value Ba'al? To assert that only your descendants are of value to you essentially means that you base what you value on how many genes they share with you. That is not what I base my values on, and I don't particularly care whether my 'line' will continue until an extinction/destruction event, as I said, technological intelligent life *in general* (regardless of it's genetic relation to me) is something of whose existence I find value in. To use a popular philosophical thougth expriement, lets say you had access to a button that, 1000 years hence, from the time you pressed it, it would prevent a cataclysmic destruction event which destroyed all complex life in the universe. You would be dead, your descendants would be dead or so distantly related as to be irrelevant, and if you don't press the button, all life will end 1000 years from now, if you do press it, it would prevent that event from happening. Would you press it? I would, in fact, risk my life in order to press that button. Now even though this is a metaphysically impossible scenario, it serves to illustrate the point that I think you would press it, and thus you do place some value on the existence of intelligent complex life.

[BaalChatzaf]

What is the source of things you value Ba'al? To assert that only your descendants are of value to you essentially means that you base what you value on how many genes they share with you. That is not what I base my values on, ......

The source of my joy is find days, a good road to ride my bike on and my grandchildren to play with at the end of the ride. That is where I get my jollies. I do not consider things a thousand years from now. That is thirty generations down the line and I can't conceive of what or who they might be. By that time I will be dead, dust and most likely, forgotten. In the long run, I am dust in the wind. In the shorter run I am a grandpa and I may have ten or so years left to call my own and teach my grand children a few neat tricks I have learned.

Ba'al Chatzaf.

[Matus1976]

The source of my joy is find days, a good road to ride my bike on and my grandchildren to play with at the end of the ride. That is where I get my jollies. I do not consider things a thousand years from now. That is thirty generations down the line and I can't conceive of what or who they might be. By that time I will be dead, dust and most likely, forgotten. In the long run, I am dust in the wind. In the shorter run I am a grandpa and I may have ten or so years left to call my own and teach my grand children a few neat tricks I have learned.

Ba'al Chatzaf.

These are not only things which should concern one a thousand years from now. For starters a highly contagious and deadly disease could easily spread throughout the world in our age of global inter continental flights. In 1918 the spanish flew popped up out of nowhere, killed millions of people, then dissappeared just as suddenly. The Lifeboat Foundation sponsored a white paper at Richard Bransen's request to investigate technologies which would mitigate the chances of pathogens spreading on transcontinental flights. Bill Bryson in "Short History of Nearly Everything" paints the picture much better

Swine flue (or Spanish Flue) arose as a normal non lethal flue in the summer of 1918, mutated into something more severe. A fifth suffered only mild systems, most became gravely ill and died. The epidemic spread to all parts of the country after starting in Boston. Schools closed, transportation and entertainment shut down, people wore masks. Between Aututmn 1918 and spring 1919, over 500,000 people died. No one knows the global total, but it was not less than 20 million and probably more like 50 million. Little is understood about the 1918 flue. It erupted suddenly, all over the world, at virtually the same time. It appeared in Madrid, Philadelphia, and Bombay in the same week. A big mystery of the 1918 flue was that it targeted the healthy the most, the young and elderly, usually the biggest victims of flues, were mostly spared. Young healthy adults, however, suffered the most. No one can rule out the possibility that the swine flue could spring up veraciously again, and take hundreds of millions of lives with it. Our life styles invite epidemics as air travel allows infectious agents to spread across the globe quickly. In 1919 a Nigerian contracted Lacerian fever but did not exhibit systems until he came back to Chicago. He died with one of the most lethal and infectious diseases ever known, luckily it did not spread. Even in normal outbreaks about 10 percent of people have the flue but don’t know it because they feel no ill effects. They tend to be the ones that spread it the most because they are not aware they even carry it, this is why it is good to get a flue shot.

Consider also that HIV is currently absorbed by a mosquitoes metabolism, but it is conceivable that it could mutate and then mosquitoes would spread AIDS. Mosquitoes are all ready the primary vector for some 10 of the 12 worst diseases that kill people, and yet our best weapon against them, DDT, is banned because it might have thinned egg shells (which was never proven) Mosquitoes are thought to have killed half of the human beings that have ever existed on the planet. I have read that estimate is some 90 billion, so 45 billion people were killed by a mosquito borne illness. Even today 1 - 3 million people die every day from malaria, the victims mostly children in Africa. When DDT was at the height of it's use, the global deaths due to malaria numbered in the double digits. Banning DDT has probably killed 30 - 50 million people. (it has been banned for over 30 years) and now in the US we must again worry about things like the West Nile Virus. The self replicating flying used needles may very well wipe out a huge portion of the human population.

These are definately not things that should only concern you a thousand years from now, especially since in a very short amount of time, perhaps a decade or two, a motivated individual with a good education and modest resources will be able to construct pathogens from scratch with standard lab equipment.

We are lax and complacence in our routines, living in blissful ignorance of the multitudes of existential risks. We are so far removed from the struggles of existence that when they come, full force, unexpected, out of nowhere, millions will die. The world is not as secure and safe as we like to think it is, and life perpetually hovers on a precipitous balance against both the forces of nature which are indifferent to life and the living few who seek to end the lives of others.

[Dragonfly]

In 1918 the spanish flew popped up out of nowhere, killed millions of people, then dissappeared just as suddenly.

The Spanish flew: is that the past version of the Spanish fly?

[BaalChatzaf]

These are definately not things that should only concern you a thousand years from now, especially since in a very short amount of time, perhaps a decade or two, a motivated individual with a good education and modest resources will be able to construct pathogens from scratch with standard lab equipment.

Aside from developing effective pesticides, vaccines and other treatments, what do you propose we do? Worrying is useless. Acting rationally and evaluating the risks is a much better way to use our energy.

As to what happens a thousand years from now, how can that possibly concern me. By then I will be dead, dust and forgotten. It will be as though I never was.

We can only "worry" about what is in our domain of effective actions. What is it we can do NOW? That is the question.

Let each generation guard itself against whatever hazard that will will emerge in their time.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Matus1976]

Aside from developing effective pesticides, vaccines and other treatments, what do you propose we do? Worrying is useless. Acting rationally and evaluating the risks is a much better way to use our energy.

Visit the Lifeboat Foundations web page, which is outlining effective strategies for every major class of existential threat. www.lifeboat.com

As to what happens a thousand years from now, how can that possibly concern me. By then I will be dead, dust and forgotten. It will be as though I never was.

Refer back to the discussions on value

We can only "worry" about what is in our domain of effective actions. What is it we can do NOW? That is the question. Let each generation guard itself against whatever hazard that will will emerge in their time.

Did you ever hear the line "The better the mind the longer the range" ? A famous author I admire once wrote that. You axiomatically presume that all threats could be handled by and only by the generation immediately affected by it. Do you think that would be the case with a KT level asteroid impact or a caldera volcanic eruption? Hardly, some of these things may have *no* warning and may wipe out ALL LIFE, including not just you and your grandchildren but every plant and animal as well. Ah, but don't let reality interfere with your blissfull short sighted ignorance!

Let's extend that line of reasoning down, each generation should handle only the threats they directly face. Well, each person should handle and prepare for only the threats they face. For each week of life we should handle and prepare for only threats we might face in that week. Each second of life we should prepare for only threats pertinent to that very second. etc. Obviously problems we face can and actually almost always will transcend the amount of time it takes for the actual problem to occur. A bullet in the head might only take a microsecond, but preventing the rise to power of the murderous dictatorship which will fire that bullet might be a multi generational effort. What then is your dividing line for preparation? A generation? An individual's life? A families life? A species life time? The lifetime of intelligent sentient life?

[BaalChatzaf]

Let's extend that line of reasoning down, each generation should handle only the threats they directly face. Well, each person should handle and prepare for only the threats they face. For each week of life we should handle and prepare for only threats we might face in that week. Each second of life we should prepare for only threats pertinent to that very second. etc. Obviously problems we face can and actually almost always will transcend the amount of time it takes for the actual problem to occur. A bullet in the head might only take a microsecond, but preventing the rise to power of the murderous dictatorship which will fire that bullet might be a multi generational effort. What then is your dividing line for preparation? A generation? An individual's life? A families life? A species life time? The lifetime of intelligent sentient life?

Worrying out to Forever is absurd and insane. It is beyond our capability to know -in detail- how the world will be in the far future. Since people are guided by -choice- we cannot possibly know what they will -chose- to do in the future. At best we can deal with physical properties and conditions of the world (that is the job of physics) but we cannot even begin to cope with future social and economic conditions. Neither you nor I know, or even can know what people will be thinking and choosing ten, a hundred or a thousand years from now.

Every vision of the future put out by Utopians and Sci-Fi writers has turned out to be largely wrong. As Avery Brookes said in the T.V. ad --- where are the flying cars?

You are assuming a capability we simply do not have.

Ba'al Chatzaf