Ignore Islam, 'ex-Muslims' urge

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ignore Islam, 'ex-Muslims' urge

By Dominic Casciani

BBC News

June 21, 2007

Ms Namazie urged governments to stop dealing with Islamic organisations that were pushing their values on other people and limiting free speech.

"We are taking a stand for reason, universal rights and values, and secularism. We are quite certain we represent a majority in Europe and a vast secular and humanist protest movement in countries like Iran," she said.

"People can have their beliefs but they must be kept in the private sphere."

I'll bet this is a group funded as a result of efforts like the Rand Corporation study on establishing moderate Muslim networks.

This is great to see and it is the direction I predict the Muslim world will end up following.

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

She is arthur of "Infidel" and now living in the US.

Michael;

Your post is interesting as always and I wish the group well.

Another event on C-Span has been an appearance by Ayan Hirsi Ali at the National Press Club. Ms Ali actually as the audacity to complain about the bad treatment of atheists when asked about the treatment of Muslims.

When Ms. Ali was a young girl she read a lot of Western literature. It might be interesting to find out he she ever read Ayn Rand.

She is a very heroic figure.

Edited June 21, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[bmacwilliam]

She is a very heroic figure.

Big time.

Bob

[Aggrad02]

She is arthur of "Infidel" and now living in the US.

Michael;

Your post is interesting as always and I wish the group well.

Another event on C-Span has been an appearance by Ayan Hirsi Ali at the National Press Club. Ms Ali actually as the audacity to complain about the bad treatment of atheists when asked about the treatment of Muslims.

When Ms. Ali was a young girl she read a lot of Western literature. It might be interesting to find out he she ever read Ayn Rand.

She is a very heroic figure.

I just got finished reading Infidel last week, and it is a really incredible book. She talked a lot about the books that she read when she was a child/teenager and they were mostly cheap romance novels and Nancy Drew type stuff, she didn't mention any political/historical/philosophical type books, just novels that the Christian girls in Nairobi passed around. But she said that it gave her insight into American culture, and showed how women were free to make their own decisions. It became a fantasy for her to be able to live in such a free culture.

Another women who spoke out against Radical Islam and the passive invasion of Europe was Oriana Fallaci of Italy. She was never a Muslim, but was also very courageous, had death threats against her, and also came to live in New York.

Dustan

[Aggrad02]

Also it is very interesting that both Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Oriana Fallaci both came to the conclusion independently that the only way to combat Radical Islam was with reason, never did they mention Christianity or Democracy.

--Dustan

Edited June 24, 2007 by Aggrad02

[Aggrad02]

She is arthur of "Infidel" and now living in the US.

Michael;

Your post is interesting as always and I wish the group well.

Another event on C-Span has been an appearance by Ayan Hirsi Ali at the National Press Club. Ms Ali actually as the audacity to complain about the bad treatment of atheists when asked about the treatment of Muslims.

When Ms. Ali was a young girl she read a lot of Western literature. It might be interesting to find out he she ever read Ayn Rand.

She is a very heroic figure.

Actually Ayaan Hirsi Ali wrote Infidel, not Maryam Namazie.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Actually Ayaan Hirsi Ali wrote Infidel, not Maryam Namazie.

Dustan,

Correct. Namazie is Muslim. Hirsi is not.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Also it is very interesting that both Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Oriana Fallaci both came to the conclusion independently that the only way to combat Radical Islam was with reason, never did they mention Christianity or Democracy.

--Dustan

Yodah says: Do not your breath hold, until Muslims reasonable are, else blue turn you will.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

Bob;

The point that Dustan is trying to make is that reason is the fundamental not Democracy or Christianity. Ayn Rand said you have to go back to the fundamentals.

If you have two people one who says the Koran says something and another who says that reason and reality command it. I know who I would like to deal with.

Edited June 24, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[Judith]

Some people have an inner commitment to reason even if they subscribe to a particular religion, and appealing to their reason will be useful. Those are the Moslems to whom we should be speaking. The kind of people of any religion who say, "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!" aren't worth arguing with. They might be converted to a less toxic form of religion, but the fundamental attitude toward that religion will not change.

Judith

[BaalChatzaf]

Some people have an inner commitment to reason even if they subscribe to a particular religion, and appealing to their reason will be useful. Those are the Moslems to whom we should be speaking. The kind of people of any religion who say, "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!" aren't worth arguing with. They might be converted to a less toxic form of religion, but the fundamental attitude toward that religion will not change.

Judith

The Muslims to whom we should be speaking (by your reckoning) are in grave danger from the Muslims with whom we should not speak. Free thinking Muslims tend to be silent or dead (at least in the middle east).

Think of Salman Rushdie (now Sir Salman OBE). He had a contract put out on his life for publishing his satirical book -Satanic Verses-. In addition unreasonable Muslims (is that one or word or two?) threatened death and destruction to bookstores and booksellers who sold the book.

If you wait for enough "reasonable" Muslims to stand up and be heard, you will probably die of old age.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

I know and know of many free thinking Muslims who are neither silent nor dead. Some are in the Middle East, too.

This trend is growing and will grow more rapidly since an influx of funding has started. I know that possibility bothers you, but that is reality.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob,

I know and know of many free thinking Muslims who are neither silent nor dead. Some are in the Middle East, too.

This trend is growing and will grow more rapidly since an influx of funding has started. I know that possibility bothers you, but that is reality.

Michael

Before or after the Wahabites blow up a nuclear device in New York City or Washington?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

I thought your view of knowledge did not allow for that kind of statement.

Anyway, somebody has to build the world and make it safe for the grouchy. Complaining and saying "Kill 'em all" won't make anything at all happen, good or bad. Just grouchy bitching and it stops there. The ancient savage custom of wiping out an enemy tribe for the aggressions of some of its members is no longer with us, except under dictatorships and in certain criminal gangs. (This was a very popular practice among Indians.)

Those were the days, weren't they?

The only course I see that will develop in reality with the Islamic world is intellectual persuasion to increase moderates added to military containment of fanatics. In fact, this is not the only one I see that will play out in the real world, it is the only rational one I see. Maybe another "surgical" war (specific pre-planned targets aimed at minimum loss of civilian life), like with Iran, to dismantle it's military apparatus and nuclear weapons production.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob,

I thought your view of knowledge did not allow for that kind of statement.

I put forth a question, not a statement. Do you care to answer it?

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I put forth a question, not a statement. Do you care to answer it?

Bob,

Well, it is one of those kinds of questions like, "Do you still beat your wife?" as it is drawn up to make you agree with something against your will (thus the statement), but sure, I'll answer it.

I know that possibility bothers you, but that is reality.

Before or after the Wahabites blow up a nuclear device in New York City or Washington?

Will that possibility and reality bother you before or after an explosion?

I don't have any solid information that the Wahabites will blow up a nuclear device in New York City or Washington, but if they did, I think the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community would bother you both before and after the explosion.

To be complete, I think that the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community will bother you if there is no explosion.

I think you are bothered now by the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community and will continue to be bothered by it in all scenarios.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

To be complete, I think that the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community will bother you if there is no explosion.

I think you are bothered now by the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community and will continue to be bothered by it in all scenarios.

Michael

I think you are unrealistically optimistic. The Muslims have been in the Dark for the last seven hundred years. I expect they will be in the Dark for the next seven hundred years. In short, I do not think the possibility exists. You do, I don't.

I am guided by the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 72a -If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first-.

Attack first, apologize later.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bob,

The only advice I can give you is to stay away from New York City and Washington. You will find me at both there at times.

I don't imagine you are well connected enough to send our armed forces on a wipe-out mission.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob,

The only advice I can give you is to stay away from New York City and Washington. You will find me at both there at times.

I don't imagine you are well connected enough to send our armed forces on a wipe-out mission.

Michael

Alas! I am not well connected at all. I do write to my congress critter,

Short of that all I can do is await the next major attack by Evil Muslim Extremists (is that one word or three?) and tell the world "I told you so!".

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Judith]

The ancient savage custom of wiping out an enemy tribe for the aggressions of some of its members is no longer with us, except under dictatorships and in certain criminal gangs. (This was a very popular practice among Indians.)

Those were the days, weren't they?

The only course I see that will develop in reality with the Islamic world is intellectual persuasion to increase moderates added to military containment of fanatics. In fact, this is not the only one I see that will play out in the real world, it is the only rational one I see. Maybe another "surgical" war (specific pre-planned targets aimed at minimum loss of civilian life), like with Iran, to dismantle it's military apparatus and nuclear weapons production.

Question for you, Michael:

Suppose your proposed solution doesn't work, and it is found that it can't work. Suppose your only choices are to wipe out the enemy tribe completely or to see that tribe take over yours, with its way of life.

What would you choose?

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Judith,

Do you mean like prison gangs: skinheads versus the blacks versus the Hispanics? Why, you fight for your tribe, of course. You have no other choice.

If you wish to transpose this thinking to cover a billion and a half human beings in many different countries, I find the idea too far removed from reality to entertain seriously. I would answer that in the same manner as what I would do if little green men from Mars started overrunning the earth.

Michael

[Judith]

If you wish to transpose this thinking to cover a billion and a half human beings in many different countries, I find the idea too far removed from reality to entertain seriously. I would answer that in the same manner as what I would do if little green men from Mars started overrunning the earth.

That head-in-the-sand attitude is what will lead to the downfall of Western Civilization.

These days I'm glad I have no children. I'm also relieved at the thought of my own mortality, which is a very sad thing.

As Francisco D'Anconia said, what will happen to us is what we deserve.

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Judith,

The downfall of the entire Western Civilization is a little large for my plate. I can't fit it all on my largest platter.

I do not share your pessimism. I also don't share the standard Objectivist line that the world is perishing from an orgy of this or that.

This old world, despite dire prophesies of doom from Objectivists since the 1950's has stubbornly insisted on being a wonderful place for the majority of mankind and is only getting better. We seem to be gradually containing the bad guys in all cultures and an explosion of manufactured goods is providing a wealth never before seen in all of human history.

Michael

EDIT: By one of those weird coincidences, this link arrived in my email inbox at this moment from an NIF member. (Apologies to the religious. The fear-mongered End-of-Days-style preaching is basically what is being lampooned there.)

[Aggrad02]

The ancient savage custom of wiping out an enemy tribe for the aggressions of some of its members is no longer with us, except under dictatorships and in certain criminal gangs. (This was a very popular practice among Indians.)

Those were the days, weren't they?

The only course I see that will develop in reality with the Islamic world is intellectual persuasion to increase moderates added to military containment of fanatics. In fact, this is not the only one I see that will play out in the real world, it is the only rational one I see. Maybe another "surgical" war (specific pre-planned targets aimed at minimum loss of civilian life), like with Iran, to dismantle it's military apparatus and nuclear weapons production.

Question for you, Michael:

Suppose your proposed solution doesn't work, and it is found that it can't work. Suppose your only choices are to wipe out the enemy tribe completely or to see that tribe take over yours, with its way of life.

What would you choose?

Judith

Judith,

How many Muslims do you think the American/British policy of controlling Mid East oil has killed since oil was discovered there the early 1900's. By your logic they are justified in trying to wipe us out.

I am not saying they are justified though. As fan's of Ayn Rand, can't y'all see that we have been violating their property rights and liberty for more than 70 years as well as directly or indirectly killing millions of them . Maybe it is our foreign policy of interventionism that has caused the hatred and not our freedom. I think it is funny that we call them fascist but go to war to take their oil from them for our corporations. We must confront the Muslims with reason about their beliefs but we must also apply the same litmus test to our own government actions.

Dustan

BTW: Saying such things as wipe out their tribe sends shivers down my back as that is as collective as it gets.

[Aggrad02]

To be complete, I think that the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community will bother you if there is no explosion.

I think you are bothered now by the possibility and reality of a growing moderate Muslim community and will continue to be bothered by it in all scenarios.

Michael

I think you are unrealistically optimistic. The Muslims have been in the Dark for the last seven hundred years. I expect they will be in the Dark for the next seven hundred years. In short, I do not think the possibility exists. You do, I don't.

I am guided by the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 72a -If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first-.

Attack first, apologize later.

Ba'al Chatzaf

How do you apply your little Talmud quote when we attacked them first?

--Dustan