Introduction and quick question

[sludge7]

Hi, my name is Jessica and I live on a small farm in South West Wales although I am originally from Boston/New York. I've been a fan of Ayn Rand for many many years and like to think that I live my life according to Objectivist values.

Now for the personal bit and the question: I have a bit of a problem with my temper, to put it mildly, and have recently been seeing somebody for some "anger management counselling". This sounds a bit bizarre to me put down in writing like this, but I think the crux of the matter is as follows: I cannot deal with irrational people and irrationality. I have a very logical mind, and don't have any coping mechanism for dealing with the illogical. Consequently, when put in such situations where I have to deal with illogical and irrational things/people, I explode...

In Atlas Shrugged, when Ayn Rand's characters are faced with an illogical world, they choose to deal with it by withdrawing from it. This of course is unfortunately not an option in real life! So how do people deal with illogical and irrational people and/or situations?

[Rich Engle]

Read Nathaniel Branden's work on self-esteem, you will find your own answers.

Short and sweet, it's all him: You can't control the behavior of others, but you certainly can control your own.

(paraphrase)

Personally, I find controlling my own behavior to be a full-time job.

best,

rde

[Laure]

In Atlas Shrugged, when Ayn Rand's characters are faced with an illogical world, they choose to deal with it by withdrawing from it. This of course is unfortunately not an option in real life! So how do people deal with illogical and irrational people and/or situations?

How do I deal with it? I laugh about it. Keep a sense of humor.

[Rich Engle]

In Atlas Shrugged, when Ayn Rand's characters are faced with an illogical world, they choose to deal with it by withdrawing from it. This of course is unfortunately not an option in real life! So how do people deal with illogical and irrational people and/or situations?

I gather any kind of crowd I can around them. Then, we point, laugh, and occasionally poke at them with sharp sticks.

It doesn't always change things, but it's definitely good for a night out.

rde

Empathy, Schmempanthy

[Barbara Branden]

Now for the personal bit and the question: I have a bit of a problem with my temper, to put it mildly, and have recently been seeing somebody for some "anger management counselling". This sounds a bit bizarre to me put down in writing like this, but I think the crux of the matter is as follows: I cannot deal with irrational people and irrationality. I have a very logical mind, and don't have any coping mechanism for dealing with the illogical. Consequently, when put in such situations where I have to deal with illogical and irrational things/people, I explode...

In Atlas Shrugged, when Ayn Rand's characters are faced with an illogical world, they choose to deal with it by withdrawing from it. This of course is unfortunately not an option in real life! So how do people deal with illogical and irrational people and/or situations?

Jessica, I wonder if you are correctly identifying the cause of your explosions, that is, that they are your reaction to irrationality. I suspect that, rather, they are your reaction to your own sense of helplessness in dealing with irrationality. I have the sense from your post -- and please correct me if I'm mistaken -- that you think it somehow is your job to make irrational people see reason. It can't be done. You can't, like the people in Atlas, withdraw from the world, but you can do an equivalent: withdraw emotionally from them. Understand that irrational people are not your problem and not your responsibility; if they truly are irrational, they can't be dealt with. Your concern should be with people who can be reached by reason.

But be very careful not to pass the judgment of irrationality easily. It's a very damning conclusion to reach, and should never be reached simply because someone does not accept what to you might seem like a logical argument. In this regard, you might be interested in a talk I gave this summer, which has been posted to Objectivist Living: Objectivism and Rage.

Further, do you see that by exploding, you are allowing others to cause you to behave irrationally? You are handing the controls to them.

Barbara

[Judith]

I can certainly understand your frustration, Jessica. There are situations, especially in a work environment, where one simply has to work with irrational people. One finds it impossible to convince them of things by rational argument, and withdrawal is not an option. It can lead to feelings of burnout eventually. All I can suggest is finding sympathetic people to whom you can vent and trying to minimize the situations in which you have no choice but to interact with such people as much as you can.

Judith

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jessica,

Welcome to OL.

I guess we all have our own demons to live with. I don't know what to tell you about anger management except to say that if you are seeing a person, you must consider the problem to be serious enough to deal with it.

In my own case, I used to have a problem with bitterness toward others. Since I was well-meaning and rational toward them, I expected them to be the same. When they were callous to me or purposely try to hurt me, the hurt would multiply way beyond normal and the bitterness in my soul would harden.

So I made my internal adjustment. I accepted the fact that human nature included an element of ill intentions. This meant everyone. It was a LONG time before I took a look at myself in this manner, but I did and I am glad I did.

Now I fish with people. I try to fish for their good side and simply ignore the irrational. I have trained myself to be blind. I used to produce pop singers, so this attitude was really tested hard. But a flash of genius nowadays brings me pleasure instead of the bitterness that an irrational act used to bring.

I also learned that the most precious word in the world is serenity. No lasting joy is possible without it. I do hope you find yours.

There are lots of really good people on OL. Make yourself at home and get to know some of them. I assure you they are worth it. It's great to have you aboard.

Michael

[Ross Barlow]

Jessica, you have shared something personal here, so I will reply in kind.

I come from a violent past, and anger has always simmered below the surface of my psyche. Anger over irrational students – especially, violent ones -- was contributing to my health problems and a factor in my early retirement as a high school teacher of history and philosophy.

Stress and anger were killing me physically, and sometimes I really felt like doing extreme violence to several students. Anger like this translates for me into intense physical pain, high b/p, troubled sleep and bad dreams, so I have become more meditative and learned to let it go.

In Vietnam, while back in the relative safety of our hilltop firebase where we could often unload our weapons and kick back, I once got into an altercation with a fellow Marine who was drunk and still pissed off at me for humiliating him in an earlier argument over the existence of God. Days before, I had made him look like the intellectual fool he was, and I had been arrogant and showed him no mercy.

He was trying to make me angry enough to fight him by insulting me in every possible way he could think of, with no success. Then he finally did it when he grabbed my copy of *Atlas Shrugged* (the only copy I knew of in Southeast Asia and which would take weeks to replace from the States). He said, “This book is rotting your mind. I’m going to burn it.” And he held out his lighter.

I got rather alarmed and angry very quickly. I grabbed my M-16 and an ammo magazine (clip) and said, “Joe, if you burn that book, I’m going to shoot you.”

(This is a true story. I remember it like it was yesterday.)

Our eyes were locked on each other. He took one step back and flicked the flame of the lighter, holding it to the book’s edge. I responded by slamming the magazine into the well of my rifle. The next step of loading it would have been to pull back the bolt and let it spring back, which would load a round into the chamber making it ready to rock and roll, but I didn’t have to do this because Joe stopped his book-burning threat and flung the book into my face instead.

(I would *not* really have shot him. I maybe could have tried to shoot the lighter out of his hand, but muzzle blast at that range could have blinded him or I could have actually hit his hand by mistake in my rage or a stray bullet at that angle could have hit a buddy elsewhere behind us. I was angry, but not insane. I could have shot between his feet. I don’t know what I ultimately would have done, but I wasn’t going to let him destroy my only copy of a favorite book.)

I am slow to anger; I mean you really have to push me. I do cool down very quickly, but the immediate rage that I am capable of scares me to this day. I should have just let it cool down after he ended the threat to the book, but something about book-burners in principle and this asshole in particular made me unable to. As soon as the book hit my face, I took the magazine out of my rifle (and there was nothing in the chamber) and I replied to his book-throwing by hurling my rifle at him. He threw it back at me, and that’s when I made a big mistake. Instead of letting the anger go, I got into a fist fight with him.

I grew up with boxing gloves and was a really decent boxer, as well as studying a lot of Asian martial arts and receiving USMC infantry close-combat training. But my anger had been fading fast once the book was out of danger, and I found out quickly that this fight was definitely a loser for me. I was only a Welterweight then (about 135 lbs) and Joe was not only a Light-Heavyweight, but he was a good one. Damn good, fast, strong, hard-hitting and mean. I still have a scar on my face today from where I had to get stitched up after this fight. I just could not let my contempt for this idiot allow me to damage myself even more, so I just said, “Joe, I’m not doing this anymore,” and I walked away.

Joe beat me bloody in our fist-fight, but I had earlier kicked his ass intellectually. I guess we came out even. And my copy of *Atlas Shrugged* survived.

To help deal with my anger, I have found great counsel and solace in reading the Stoic philosophers, especially Marcus Aurelius, who I used to read every morning before students entered my school. As Barbara pointed out above, we cannot always change people that much and at some point we must just accept that they are irrational. The Stoics would say that we should concentrate on changing that which is within our sphere of control: our own thoughts, attitudes, perspectives and reactions toward the people and events that are outside our control. Michael mentioned the word “serenity,” which was a great Stoic value, one to pursue and cherish.

Honestly, Asian meditation techniques are the best help for me to cool the fires of anger when they are hot, as well as being an instant stress reliever. They really can work dramatically and quickly, once practiced and habituated, helping both physiologically and psychologically.

The old tried-and-true classic that works for me is the simple focusing of awareness on one’s breathing. Breath in slowly, fully and deeply, letting all awareness concentrate on that simple action. Breath out slow and full, letting all the anger and stress flow out of you. Do it again and again until you have regulated your breath, your bodily responses and your emotions back to normal. It relaxes the body and soothes the mind.

We breathe both automatically and volitionally, i.e., although breathing is natural and we do it even while sleeping, while we are conscious the quality or nature of each distinctive breath is potentially under our control. When the world around us seems insane and infuriating, we can take a deep slow controlled breath, let it out and take another one. This is within our control, and sometimes, when in the grip of a powerful emotion such as anger, it is the only thing in our control. Once it is learned and habituated, it is easy. Serenity on demand.

-Ross Barlow.

[Wrighty]

Ross - That is such a visually and emotionally powerful account I'm not suprised it remains with you like it was yesterday. I totally agree with your advice regarding breathing as it brings one back to one's grounded centre in a physical way and the mind/body link should do the rest.

I'd also use some reframing to accompany the breathing control as you need some means of breaking the perceived dominant position of the annoying and irrational person. Then when you are calm you can move them towards calmness much more easily.

Not long ago I worked for two brothers (who at times were their own worst enemies). One was totally logical, the other irrational. At first they both annoyed me in different ways: I coped with the logical one by assuming the role of "Jeeves" - which he, like Bertie Wooster, was totally unaware of. With Mr Irrational it was a much more daunting task. I tried the reframe of seeing him without clothes on in the middle of one of his ranting episodes which worked well (he couldn't figure out why I was smirking). The auditory reframe was to hear his voice as if he had just taken a large breath of helium before launching into his diatribe. This too took the emotional sting out of my anger at him. If I hadn't used these devices to assist my emotional reactions to these guys I would not have coped too well, and would have probably left their employ - taking with me a whole raft of unsure feelings about my ability to work with and for others.

Jessica, I guess your anger management therapy probably follows these lines as they are part of a well trodden path. You may also heard of Thought Field Therapy (developed by Roger Callahan). There was an episode of a recent series by Paul McKenna where he used TFT on a client who had intense and continuous road rage every time he sat in a car, either as a driver or passenger. It was a very effective and simple form of treatment.

[Chris Grieb]

Jessica; You may think I'm stupid but what country is South West Wales in?

Edited March 25, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[Judith]

Ross, that's an amazing story, amazingly vividly told. I can even feel the M-16 in my hands.

Any particular readings of Marcus Aurelius you can recommend for a beginner? Stuff like that is often available free on the internet, as I've discovered to my delight over the years. There are occasions at work when I'm faced with indifferent stupidity of such vast proportions that I'm left speechless, and all I can do is rage and whine to my co-workers about it for sympathy.

Judith

[bmacwilliam]

Jessica; You may think I'm stupid but what country is South West Wales in?

South West ____________.

Fill in the blank.

Bob

[sludge7]

Wow. Firstly I would like to thank everybody who has posted here for taking the time to reply to me, and with such insight and clarity! Sorry it's taken me so long to reply -- my work doesn't involve sitting in front of a computer, so although I have looked at everybody's replies over the last week, this is the first chance I've had to sit down and property formulate my thoughts.

Read Nathaniel Branden's work on self-esteem, you will find your own answers. Short and sweet, it's all him: You can't control the behavior of others, but you certainly can control your own.

Funnily enough, this book has been sitting on my bookshelf for years although I have never read it. It belonged to an ex-boyfriend and he left it behind when he moved out -- and I think that negative associations with him have prevented me ever taking it off the shelf! Will try to read it now and let you know what I think.

Re controlling behaviours: I may be able to control my behaviour outwardly, but I have immense difficulty controlling the emotions behind it in certain instances, and that is what is causing me trouble...

Jessica, I wonder if you are correctly identifying the cause of your explosions, that is, that they are your reaction to irrationality. I suspect that, rather, they are your reaction to your own sense of helplessness in dealing with irrationality. I have the sense from your post -- and please correct me if I'm mistaken -- that you think it somehow is your job to make irrational people see reason. It can't be done. You can't, like the people in Atlas, withdraw from the world, but you can do an equivalent: withdraw emotionally from them. Understand that irrational people are not your problem and not your responsibility; if they truly are irrational, they can't be dealt with. Your concern should be with people who can be reached by reason.

But be very careful not to pass the judgment of irrationality easily. It's a very damning conclusion to reach, and should never be reached simply because someone does not accept what to you might seem like a logical argument. In this regard, you might be interested in a talk I gave this summer, which has been posted to Objectivist Living: Objectivism and Rage.

Further, do you see that by exploding, you are allowing others to cause you to behave irrationally? You are handing the controls to them.

Barbara -- you are completely correct in saying that it is my own sense of helplessness in the face of irrationality that is causing my temper/explosions/frustration/unhappiness. And I do know that I can't make these people see reason, but I continue to find myself in situations where I have no choice but to deal with these people. It is like the scene in Atlas Shrugged where Dagny is trying to persuade Mr Mowen to manufacture switches of Rearden Metal: "...hour upon hour of speaking quietly, evenly, patiently, trying to hit the centerless target that was the person of Mr Mowen..."

I have read "Objectivism and Rage," and you make some very good points which will serve me well to remember, but what does one do when the person one is trying to deal with doesn't even express an opinion? I am generally fairly good at dealing with people who have differing opinions to me; what I can't understand though is people who fail to form an opinion at all, whether through wilful refusal to do so or simply apathy and not caring.

And yes, I do see that I am allowing others to cause me to behave irrationally-- and I am very unhappy about this which is why I am trying to find a solution! But although I can rationally understand that I should not allow others to make me so upset, that it is not helping me achieve my goals, that it makes me unhappy, etc., all this rational thought seems unable to actually enable me to control my emotions...

In my own case, I used to have a problem with bitterness toward others. Since I was well-meaning and rational toward them, I expected them to be the same. When they were callous to me or purposely try to hurt me, the hurt would multiply way beyond normal and the bitterness in my soul would harden.

So I made my internal adjustment. I accepted the fact that human nature included an element of ill intentions.

I am very reluctant to believe this. I strongly believe that people are fundamentally good, and that their ill intentions are a product of their upbringing or (mis)education. If I were to believe that people were not fundamentally good, I don't think there would be much hope for the future of the world. Sorry if I am being a bit melodramatic here...

You may also heard of Thought Field Therapy (developed by Roger Callahan).

I hadn't, but have just looked it up now and it looks quite interesting. Do you have any personal experience of TFT?

The woman I am seeing currently is trained in Human Givens therapy -- see http://www.hgi.org.uk/ for more info. I don't know much about it (other than what I have read on the website) but she seems intelligent and to understand what I am feeling and experiencing which is more than I can say for some other people I have seen in the past.

Jessica; You may think I'm stupid but what country is South West Wales in?

Officially Wales is not it's own country, it is part of the United Kingdom, but most Welsh people believe otherwise! Wales was conquered by England in the 16th century, and quite a large percentage of the Welsh would like their independence back.

Edited March 27, 2007 by sludge7

[Dragonfly]

You may also heard of Thought Field Therapy (developed by Roger Callahan).

I hadn't, but have just looked it up now and it looks quite interesting. Do you have any personal experience of TFT?

TFT is a quack treatment. See for example here, here or here. If anyone knows all about TFT it is Monica Pignotti, who has been a staunch supporter of TFT for years and a close collaborator of Callahan, until she realized that it all was built on quicksand.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

In my own case, I used to have a problem with bitterness toward others. Since I was well-meaning and rational toward them, I expected them to be the same. When they were callous to me or purposely try to hurt me, the hurt would multiply way beyond normal and the bitterness in my soul would harden.

So I made my internal adjustment. I accepted the fact that human nature included an element of ill intentions.

I am very reluctant to believe this. I strongly believe that people are fundamentally good, and that their ill intentions are a product of their upbringing or (mis)education. If I were to believe that people were not fundamentally good, I don't think there would be much hope for the future of the world. Sorry if I am being a bit melodramatic here...

Jessica,

I want to be clear because I possibly didn't communicate well. I don't believe human beings are fundamentally bad. On the contrary, they are fundamentally good. This site is proof that even Objectivists are fundamentally good!

What I had to accept is that all people have a negative side that pops up at times (sometimes for no reason whatsoever) and often they are so into their own little world that they don't even realize that there are others around them who do not deserve to be the butt of their negative side.

Maybe an example will help. When I achieve something I am proud of, I don't expect anyone to be happy for me. I used to, but now I hope for it and take joy in it when it comes, but I no longer expect it, even from someone I jump up an down for when he does something admirable.

It's a cliche, but now I hope for the good and expect the bad. But this is the part that needs to be really clear.

I don't expect the bad all the time. The sense of "expect" I use here is more like being prepared if it comes. I now have an antenna in the air ready to receive vibes of envy, callousness, hostility, etc. As I have accepted the fact that anybody and everybody is capable of this at almost any time, I no longer get my feelings hurt when it comes. If it is someone who cares about me, I know it was probably more from some problem of his than an intent to attack me. If it is someone I don't know or know very slightly, let's say I start forming a more defined opinion of that person. If it is an enemy, of course I expect it.

I have seen people who care about me deeply be absolutely cruel and not even be aware of it, but since they cared about me, they changed immediately the moment they realized what they were doing. As I used to expect people to be nice if I was nice to them almost as payment, this kind of thing used to hurt me terribly, even after they apologized and changed. I used to think, "How could they do that (or think that about me, or whatever)?" I didn't understand it. Now I think I do. (As an aside, I have found over time that by being nice, I often pull the nice out of others, even when they don't want to be.)

With people more distant, I now factor in that there are many influences in a person's life. There is no one size fits all. For instance, here is a typical problem that arises and people react to it with differing degrees.

As I am a public kind of person, I am used to people gossiping about me. This has followed me my entire lifetime. More times than I can count a person has started out very hostile with me for no reason at all, then has become my friend after he knew me. Only then did he tell me about the gossip. I have learned that it's OK to let this go. Should people be influenced by gossip against someone they don't know? Nope. Not at all. But are they. Yep. Almost everybody—some more than others. But it is good to let it all go without harboring hard feelings when the bad influence has stopped.

I have also have had people next to me professing they cared about me, but then turn envious and vicious from one minute to the next. These people usually have not been in my life very long. I rarely let them hurt me. Well, there is shock and sudden anger and some hurt, but then it passes quickly. I can allow it to pass because I prepared myself.

But nobody can be either-or in their emotions all the time, so obviously I do have some expectations with my intimates and I do get upset with a sustained attack. Who doesn't? But nowadays I cut intimates a hell of a lot of slack before I allow myself to get hurt and, when under sustained attack, I tend to hit back hard and where it hurts, and only then ask why (if I ever do). I am much happier this way. My close relationships are extremely strong and upbeat with hardly any bickering, ever. Let's say I believe people are fundamentally good (and God knows I nurture plenty when I can) but now I factor in a safety zone for irrational behavior. Even the best of us slip at times.

There is more, but that's enough for now. I hope my meaning is clearer.

And once again, welcome to OL. You sound like a very good person. I hope you enjoy yourself here.

Michael

[Ross Barlow]

Ross, that's an amazing story, amazingly vividly told. I can even feel the M-16 in my hands.

Any particular readings of Marcus Aurelius you can recommend for a beginner? ...<snip>...

Judith

Judith, *The Meditations* by Marcus Aurelius is the one to look for. It is not a big book, and it can be found in most decent bookstores. I had a bunch of great quotations from this work that I used as assigned readings in my high school philosophy class, but I left them in the States along with the computer files. But I did buy a copy of *The Meditations* here, so I will post the good ones if I can locate them in the book.

-Ross Barlow.

[Wrighty]

Ross - thanks.

I've just ordered up Meditations and await with interest. One of the reviews on Amazon recommended Seneca instead.....any thoughts?

Dragonfly - I looked up your references to TFT being quackery. Seems Monica Pignotti identified the quicksand with her misgivings regarding VT, the cost of trainings thereof, and the perceived subterfuge surrounding that particular side of the overall therapy. Yes, most of the authentication of the effectiveness of TFT (and indeed NLP) is anecdotal and therefore any provable efficacy is somewhat difficult.

Jessica - your HG lady will certainly have your best interests at heart. I hope you get some resolution to your issues. If you still want to find out more about TFT without breaking the bank, get Tapping the Healer Within. For under a tenner you can read about it and make up your own mind.

[Ross Barlow]

*Meditations* by Marcus Aurelius is a book for browsing, with a highlighter or pencil to mark your favorite aphorisms. He was writing it for/to himself as a record of his musings.

The other Stoics are great too. Seneca, Cicero, and especially Epictetus. They all seemed to have such a calm and solid perspective on the big picture.

-Ross Barlow.

[sludge7]

In my own case, I used to have a problem with bitterness toward others. Since I was well-meaning and rational toward them, I expected them to be the same. When they were callous to me or purposely try to hurt me, the hurt would multiply way beyond normal and the bitterness in my soul would harden.

So I made my internal adjustment. I accepted the fact that human nature included an element of ill intentions.

I am very reluctant to believe this. I strongly believe that people are fundamentally good, and that their ill intentions are a product of their upbringing or (mis)education. If I were to believe that people were not fundamentally good, I don't think there would be much hope for the future of the world. Sorry if I am being a bit melodramatic here...

I want to be clear because I possibly didn't communicate well. I don't believe human beings are fundamentally bad. On the contrary, they are fundamentally good. This site is proof that even Objectivists are fundamentally good!

What I had to accept is that all people have a negative side that pops up at times (sometimes for no reason whatsoever) and often they are so into their own little world that they don't even realize that there are others around them who do not deserve to be the butt of their negative side.

Thank you for that clarification! I suppose that I often think the same way... But to further expand on what I said earlier, it's not so much people who are intentionally or otherwise trying to hurt me really that's such the problem -- it's more the people who are completely indifferent, and couldn't care if I live or die, and also don't care about the impact and result of their actions -- these are the people I am having a problem dealing with...

[Wrighty]

I have read "Objectivism and Rage," and you make some very good points which will serve me well to remember, but what does one do when the person one is trying to deal with doesn't even express an opinion? I am generally fairly good at dealing with people who have differing opinions to me; what I can't understand though is people who fail to form an opinion at all, whether through wilful refusal to do so or simply apathy and not caring.

Jessica -

How important is it to you that they have an opinion?

Do you equate the holding of an opinion as caring and a lack of opinion (or apathy) as not caring?

Have you tried investigating whether they have a reason for choosing to not have an opinion?

I'm sure you will have already been asked these questions, but I would be interested to hear your answers!

[Judith]

Thank you for that clarification! I suppose that I often think the same way... But to further expand on what I said earlier, it's not so much people who are intentionally or otherwise trying to hurt me really that's such the problem -- it's more the people who are completely indifferent, and couldn't care if I live or die, and also don't care about the impact and result of their actions -- these are the people I am having a problem dealing with...

First and foremost, don't for a moment try to change them or help them. They are what they are, and they may or may not be helped by interacting with you. But it's not your job to save the world. You have better things to do. Think about doing whatever it is you have to do in the best, most efficient way possible whilst still preserving your own sanity.

Try not to moralize about them in your own mind. It will help your own sanity. Accept that they are what they are, and deal with them as simple obstacles in your path. It's important to distinguish between the metaphysical and the man-made, and never to accept that kind of thing as an act of nature, but for the moment, it can help your sanity simply to see them as a river you have to cross, or a storm you have to weather. That way you won't waste time tearing up your own guts over the evil of others when instead you might be turning your energies to overcoming or working around the problem and then forgetting about it.

Remember what Lillian Rearden said to James Taggart about Hank when James asked her what Hank thought of James? "He thinks life is too short to notice your existence." It is; think about them as little as possible.

Judith

[Judith]

Judith, *The Meditations* by Marcus Aurelius is the one to look for. It is not a big book, and it can be found in most decent bookstores. I had a bunch of great quotations from this work that I used as assigned readings in my high school philosophy class, but I left them in the States along with the computer files. But I did buy a copy of *The Meditations* here, so I will post the good ones if I can locate them in the book.

Found it! Here:

http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html

Thank you!

Judith

[Danneskjold]

Jessica, simple, quit caring about them, what they think or do not think, and in general their opinions. I'm the same way as you are which makes things quite interesting some of the time. I used to be at least, now I just don't care. I'm pretty sure I have the rep for being the biggest asshole in the school due to my honesty and lack of caring for the people who I don't like. But what do I care? Read The Fountainhead (again?). Probably the most applicable fiction with a good role model for the situation.

Ross, great story. My teammates actually found my copy of Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal in my carry on while we were heading down to Arizona on sunday along with The Communist Manifesto that I keep around in case I need some tinder (really it's there because I wanted to make a comparison until I realized that there is none).