Stephen Speicher's ill health

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Folks,

I have a beef with many Objectivists I have interacted with and/or read. They do not value the good. They only value the bad, or value it much more than they do the good.

For instance, a man does 1,000 good and productive things and 50 bad ones. The bad ones are nothing like killing and torturing people. They are more in the category of being rude and unfair in wielding a small bit of power. So the people I object to blank-out the good and trump up the bad as if that were all the man did.

I am not saying that anyone is like that here, but that spirit is starting to descend on this thread, so I have put all new posts to this thread under moderation.

I am trying to encourage a nicer form of Objectivism. Valuing the good for being the good and not letting the bad—when it is small—affect you is not altruism. It is proper valuing.

If anyone has bad things to say about the deceased at a moment like this, please do not comment at all. Or better still, comment elsewhere. I don't expect agreement, but I don't want any more conflict here. The man is dead. Kicking his corpse serves no good purpose.

I mentioned Stephen Speicher's passing for a very personal reason. This is not a discussion, but an homage. Stephen Speicher did many good things in life in spreading many of the values that are my own and I admire him for that. This thread is to honor him for it. No one is required to participate in this homage or agree with it, but I do expect my guests to respect it as such.

And those who do agree, I invite them to make their own homage here as some others have done.

Michael

NOTE: I just tried to set up the thread moderation and could not find how to do it without moderating the entire section, so I will have to do this by hand. So here is my criterion: Any negative comments about the deceased from this point on will be removed, either within the post or the entire post will be deleted.

[Dragonfly]

I agree with Michael. There has been ample time for criticizing the person (I can't remember much criticism however), but this is not the time. If you don't feel like offering condolences you just should shut up now.

[Brant Gaede]

I don't think "sanction of the victim" applies regardless, because the deceased cannot use that sanction to do any harm or anything else. If anyone wants to discuss this, Michael can move it to another thread.

--Brant

[Barbara Branden]

[N]o one, I assume, believes that the appropriate penalty for Stephen's attitude is death -- and so we can wish him good health. Life is precious, and it is not the sanction of the victim to hope for its continuance, even among people who have treated us badly.

Barbara: I have a lot of respect for you, as I've long stated, but I have a few disagreements with you too, as you well know. Pretty much all of them have to do with the phenomenon of cultism. So too here. Still, I'm happy to have your views on just about any topic you care to discuss.

When you say "Life is precious, and it is not the sanction of the victim to hope for its continuance, even among people who have treated us badly," that sounds to me exactly like the sanction of the victim. It's evocative of Christian tolerance, forgiveness, and love. I wonder: How rotten does a person have to be before we're allowed to wish them ill? What about Jerry

Falwell and Al Sharpton? What about Kim Jong-Il and Mahmoud Ahmadinijad? I think self-esteem and the specialness and holiness of our own values, prosperity, and existence demand more. I think society demands more.

I wonder -- does anyone actually see this issue for what it is? I'm pretty sure I can channel Ayn Rand with complete accuracy from the grave: Sympathy for the evil is treason to the good.

Kyrel, Steve and Michael have answered much of your post as I would have answered, so I'll add only a couple of thoughts. I am remarkably short of Christian tolerance, particularly when people I care about are unfairly attacked. So I do not spend my time wishing that such people have endless success, happiness, wealth, and acclaim, And if Jerry Falwell and Al Sharpton are stewing in their own juices, that's fine with me. But I don't wish them a lingering and painful death; the punishment would not fit the crime. I'm content to let reality work its own justice, to the extent that it does so. But someone like Ben Laden? The sooner he and those like him are wiped off the face of the earth, the better; that punishment would certainly fit their unspeakable crimes, and you would hear nothing about sympathy or tolerance from me; the mere thought of sympathy for such sub-humans is repugnant to me.

Yes, sympathy for the evil can be treason to the good. But as you know, I think many Objectivists tend not to be nearly careful enough about who and what they damn as evil. I want to quote a section of my talk on "Objectivism and Rage" in this regard:

"We cavalierly dispense with most of the human race for not agreeing with our philosophy. Socialists are evil, theists are evil, determinists are evil, so are Democrats and so are Conservatives and so are Libertarians, so is anyone who has read Rand and is not an Objectivist, and so are many who call themselves Objectivists but who don’t think ideas can be evil. As someone once said, 'That leaves you and me, my friend . . . and I’m not so sure about you!'

"I have seen lifelong friendships end, families bitterly divided, savagely cruel things being said that cannot be forgotten or remedied because of such an easy ascribing of evil. Yes, momentous issues sometimes are at stake, but that does not automatically turn one’s intellectual opponents into moral monsters."

I have yet to meet an Objectivist who has not gone through an early period of semi-fanaticism, in which he hurls moral accusations like thunder-bolts at anyone who dares question what he, the new Objectivist, learned yesterday. We at Objectivist Living appear to have learned better. We have learned that it is incumbent on us to try to judge, as best we can, the total of a person, not a single position or action or policy that may be misguided, even harmful. So let us remain true to what we have learned, even if the true-believer Objectivists consider us evil.

Kyrel, I understand your concern. And if you'd like to further discuss the philosoophical issue involved,, let's go to another thread and do so. Why don''t you set it up, and name the problem as you see it?

Barbara

[Chris Grieb]

Barbara; Excellent post. The idea of seeing a person's whole life in judging them is such an important idea and I am thankful for your pointing it out. Thank you again.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here is Betsy's tribute to her husband and information on the memorial service.

Stephen Speicher - 1939 - 2007

Michael

[John Dailey]

Barbara, MSK:

~ Well said, for whatever alleged intellectual 'crimes' perceived by others (presumably beyond perceived 'rudeness' and mere disagreements about issue 'X'.)

~ Unfortunate that the 'moral-castigation knee-jerk bug' has bitten some here in this forum; like, some don't accept that there's a time-and-place for everything...including one's dis-likes (not to be confused with 'objective judgements' rational-others would agree with) about another, alive or just-deceased.

~ "Respect" is a little understood concept amongst most "O'ists", methinks. Too many of the latter are ready to drop it...at the drop of a disagreement interpreted as a perceived insult. This is getting obvious re Mr. Speicher. Unfortunate.

LLAP

J:D

[zantonavitch]

I have yet to meet an Objectivist who has not gone through an early period of semi-fanaticism, in which he hurls moral accusations like thunder-bolts at anyone who dares question what he, the new Objectivist, learned yesterday....

Kyrel, I understand your concern. And if you'd like to further discuss the philosophical issue involved, let's go to another thread and do so. Why don't you set it up, and name the problem as you see it?

Barbara

Barbara: I'm going to take your -- as well as Michael's -- suggestion on this, and try to deal with some of the controversial issues raised here in a seperate discussion thread. I just finished writing a brief, but fiery (as always!), article on various related points, and hopefully it will be available some place in OL in a day or two.