Type Talk

[Kat]

Yesterday I attended a meeting at work where we had a guest named Otto Kroeger. He is an expert on Myers-Briggs personality typing. He has written several books and he signed a copy of Type Talk at Work for me. I went through the scantron questionnaire a couple of weeks ago and I am a type INTP (Kinsey-NT). It seems pretty spot on.

I'm just curious, have others done this? Thoughts?

Kat

[James Heaps-Nelson]

I am an INTP too, but I lean toward INTJ.

Jim

[Kat]

Type Talk at Work

Here is the Amazon link to the book I was referring to. The author seems to be a cool old guy and a very entertaining speaker. He said that types usually do not change and that opposites attract as mates and same types make good friends.

Kat

[Roger Bissell]

Kat, I have been interested in MBTI personality type and Jungian personality type and Keirsey temperament theory for nearly 20 years now. I have written and lectured quite a bit on it. Some of my material is posted on my "Achilles Tendencies" web site. You can find it by googling, or by accessing it from the link on my home page at:

http://members.aol.com/REBissell/index.html

Some of the material is pretty advanced or abstract -- not much concretizing. I'd suggest looking at the piece about "Stodginess" for a peek at how I think about this stuff.

REB

[JennaW]

Is it strange to oscillate between several types depending on circumstance? I don't have a type especially, since I am 50/50 or pretty near to it on a couple of the domains...

[Ellen Stuttle]

Is it strange to oscillate between several types depending on circumstance? I don't have a type especially, since I am 50/50 or pretty near to it on a couple of the domains...

No, it isn't strange; it's good. The Jungian desideratum was to achieve a smooth interplay of all the function methods, which for most people requires learning to develop the opposite function to one's dominant function. But a person as creative and non-compartmentalized as you come across in your writing as being would be expected to flow more freely amongst the functions.

Ellen

___

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here are some posts that were recovered from a Google search cache from the July 17-27 black hole.

Michael

I have a preference for The Enneagram as a personality type indicator. I have found it to be more conducive to my self-growth and self-understanding than Myers-Briggs. The Enneagram has 9 types:

1. The Reformer

2. The Helper

3. The Achiever

4. The Artist/Individualist

5. The Observer/Inestigator

6. The Loyalist

7. The Adventurer/Enthusiast

8. The Challenger

9. The Peacemaker

What I like about the Enneagram is that it provides insights into your unconscious coping strategies, and this new self-awareness means you can choose not to play-out these strategies, but to find more life-enriching ways of dealing with situations.

People's behaviour according to their type is split up into unhealthy, average and healthy - with descriptions for how people are at each level, which is why I find it useful for self-growth.

I'm a 4 on the Enneagram - a friend who is a whizz at the Enneagram half-jokingly describes the Four as the "Tragic Romantic Drama Queen" but Fours at their best are profoundly creative, aesthetic, compassionate and highly personal. This is why I find the Enneagram inspiring - it gives me something to aim for.

One of the best websites for the Enneagram that I've come across is the Enneagram Institute: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

My favourite Enneagram book is called the 'Wisdom of the Enneagram'.

It's been a while since I've read an Enneagram book, but it is a facinating typology. Not sure what the basis of some of it was. I came out as a strong 5.

Jim

Hello Jim

It's great to be talking with you again after the conference

I know you're a 5 - your '1' brother, Tom, told me. He typed me as a 4 first time, I alas went through nearly every number and still didn't get him.

BTW does he post here?

Fran

Tom's 1 doesn't surprise me at all, but then I've seen him start several different O'ist clubs, come within a hair of getting his Eagle Scout badge in boy scouts and various other things that wouldn't be obvious from meeting him. Tom doesn't do much online Objectivism, too impersonal for him.

I, too found Enneagram more useful than Myers Briggs, when it comes to Objectivists it's often how many INTJ's can you fit in a Volkswagen Bug .

Glad you could make it across the pond two years in a row, that's quite a trip!

Jim

Fran, is the Enneagram on the Internet? If so, where?

I'm sorry I saw you only so briefly at the Summer Seminar. I looked for you after that, but I couldn't find you.

Barbara

David Meril and Roger Reid developed a four quadrant personality model that is useful when looking at interpersonal communication. The model has also been expanded in various ways, one being here:

http://www.kalarhythms.com/ip/ip.thestyles.htm

Barbara Branden wrote:

Fran, is the Enneagram on the Internet? If so, where?

Barbara

Hi Barbara

Here's a link to the Riso-Hudson site http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

Their site is pretty comprehensive and includes a test to determine which type you are, if you want to take it, and costs about $10. If you Google "free Enneagram Test", you'll find lots of other free tests. I've done both, the Riso-Hudson test and free ones, and I've come out as the same type. Here's links to two free tests that I've tried: http://similarminds.com/test.html

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php

I regret not talking with you more at the conference I found your excellent talk on rage to be fascinating and a huge relief as it reflected many of my own thoughts about Objectivism.

[JennaW]

I'm a really obvious type 8 according to the "eclectic energies" site. It also says SX for sexual instinct and I have a "7 wing". I have no idea what that means.

Enneagram type 8 - The Challenger

Taking charge, because they don't want to be controlled

People of this personality type are essentially unwilling to be controlled, either by others or by their circumstances; they fully intend to be masters of their fate. Eights are strong willed, decisive, practical, tough minded and energetic. They also tend to be domineering; their unwillingness to be controlled by others frequently manifests in the need to control others instead. When healthy, this tendency is kept under check, but the tendency is always there, nevertheless, and can assume a central role in the Eight's interpersonal relationships.

Eights generally have powerful instincts and strong physical appetites which they indulge without feelings of shame or guilt. They want a lot out of life and feel fully prepared to go out and get it. They need to be financially independent and often have a hard time working for anyone. This sometimes necessitates that the Eight opt out of the system entirely, assuming something of an outlaw mentality. Most Eights however, find a way to be financially independent while making their peace with society, but they always retain an uneasy association with any hierarchical relationship that sees the Eight in any position other than the top position.

Eights have a hard time lowering their defenses in intimate relationships. Intimacy involves emotional vulnerability and such vulnerability is one of the Eight's deepest fears. Betrayal of any sort is absolutely intolerable and can provoke a powerful response on the part of the violated Eight. Intimate relationships are frequently the arena in which an Eight's control issues are most obviously played out and questions of trust assume a pivotal position. Eights often have a sentimental side that they don't even show to their intimates, such is their fear of vulnerability. But, while trust does not come easily to an Eight, when an Eight does take someone into the inner sanctum, they find a steadfast ally and stalwart friend. The Eight's powerful protective instincts are called into play when it comes to the defense of family and friends, and Eights are frequently generous to a fault in providing for those under their care.

Eights are prone to anger. When severely provoked, or when the personality is unbalanced, bouts of anger can turn into rages. Unhealthy Eights are frankly agressive and when pushed, can resort to violence. Such Eights enjoy intimidating others whom they see as "weak" and feel little compunction about walking over anyone who stands in their way. They can be crude, brutal and dangerous.

Female Eights are far more likely to mistype than male Eights, as many of the traits typical to the type Eight personality have been discouraged in females. For the most part, however, it is other types who mistake themselves for Eights. This is especially common in male counterphobic Sixes who fail to recognize that their agression is a cover for a very deep seated anxiety. Sevens too, are prone to mistype as Eights, but Sevens lack the intensity of focus typical of the type Eight, and while both Sevens and Eights have high energy personalities, Eights have a physically based energy whereas the Seven's energetic pattern has a nervous, mental quality to it.

[sujane]

I think many who are attracted to Objectivism would be NT's - intuitive thinkers. I am INTP too - or INTJ depending on the situation. Hubby is ENTP. We get along great. The people we DON'T get along with are Sensor-Feelers - and we can spot one in a heart-beat.

I'm also a 5 on the Ennegram scale.

[Judith]

I think many who are attracted to Objectivism would be NT's - intuitive thinkers. I am INTP too - or INTJ depending on the situation. Hubby is ENTP. We get along great. The people we DON'T get along with are Sensor-Feelers - and we can spot one in a heart-beat.

I'm an I*N*T*p (with the asterisks representing very strong traits on those continua and the small letter representing being very weak on that continuum). I can appreciate just about anyone except for an SJ who won't tolerate creative people who won't follow strict rules (and therefore won't tolerate ME) and an SP who thinks that life is just about action and people like me who like to talk theory are "boring". Mind you, I like lots of SJs and SPs -- it's just the SJs and SPs who are intolerant of NTs that I don't get along with well.

As I understand it, the N-S difference is the hardest gap to bridge between people.

I've found Myers-Briggs/Jungian personality theory to be extremely useful in understanding people and valuing people who are different from me. I'd think that a lot of Objectivists who run around calling other people "evil" all the time might do well to study the theory and understand that many people will never be like them and that those people are valuable in their own right.

Many of Rand's writings about children were assuming an NT child, and were quite true -- for an NT child. She was introspecting. Those assumptions wouldn't hold true for other children.

Judith

[Ross Barlow]

I have never been able to complete any of the survey-questionnaires for determining psychological types, and I think I have tried them all many times. I do not like the way the questions and alternatives are phrased. I feel that they do not really address *me*.

Many questions seem to be answerable equally well by several choices or else by none listed. It seems that these attempts to pigeonhole me are severely limited and lacking in imagination.

It is the same sort of frustration I often feel when someone offers me to participate in a poll on politics in which the only choices available are the ones appropriate for only conservatives, “liberals” or greens. Just as those surveys make me feel politically homeless, these psychological polls make me feel more alien than usual.

I know that I am extremely introverted and quite hermit-like. Of course, I have always known this. But that is as far as these classification scales can measure.

Maybe I am from another planet. That would explain a lot.

-Ross Barlow.

[Fran]

Hi Ross

I hear your dislike of being 'pigeonholed' and would like your individuality to be more taken into account by these questionnaires? I have experienced dislike of these personality type indicators in the past, too, for similar reasons. I think part of my frustration stemmed from the fact that we are all unique and far more complex than can be explained in just a page or two of a personality profile.

If this is something that would be of interest to you, you may find that reading the explanations for each profile provides you with useful insights. I found it particularly helpful to read the Keirsey Temperaments - it gave me clarity as to why, as an NF (INFP or Healer as Keirsey calls them), I felt like such an alien growing up in an SJ household.

Here's a link if you are interested and the temparements I'm referring to are listed down the left hand side:

http://www.keirsey.com/

Warmly,

Fran

[Ross Barlow]

Thanks, Fran. I will check out your link when I get a chance later.

-Ross Barlow.

[Judith]

If this is something that would be of interest to you, you may find that reading the explanations for each profile provides you with useful insights. I found it particularly helpful to read the Keirsey Temperaments - it gave me clarity as to why, as an NF (INFP or Healer as Keirsey calls them), I felt like such an alien growing up in an SJ household.

I second Fran's recommendation. Even reading the descriptions of "S" versus "N" and "T" versus "F" will then help you understand where the questions in the survey are coming from and help you answer them better.

And yes, I suspect that many, if not most of us NTs and NFs who grew up in SJ households are now celebrating our survival! Sometimes I wish I could find NT kids in such situations and mentor them. If I'd had just ONE sympathetic NT adult to help me understand the world on my own terms, it would have made a HUGE difference to me. SJ adults can be very hard on little Ns.

Judith

[Roger Bissell]

If this is something that would be of interest to you, you may find that reading the explanations for each profile provides you with useful insights. I found it particularly helpful to read the Keirsey Temperaments - it gave me clarity as to why, as an NF (INFP or Healer as Keirsey calls them), I felt like such an alien growing up in an SJ household.

I second Fran's recommendation. Even reading the descriptions of "S" versus "N" and "T" versus "F" will then help you understand where the questions in the survey are coming from and help you answer them better.

And yes, I suspect that many, if not most of us NTs and NFs who grew up in SJ households are now celebrating our survival! Sometimes I wish I could find NT kids in such situations and mentor them. If I'd had just ONE sympathetic NT adult to help me understand the world on my own terms, it would have made a HUGE difference to me. SJ adults can be very hard on little Ns.

Judith

Hi, folks. I certainly second what Fran and Judith have said here. I have been interested in personality type (and temperament) theory for nearly 20 years and have written quite a bit on it (some of delivered to local and international conferences).

One of the intriguing things that type theory helps clarify is family dynamics. In my childhood home, the head of the household was my staunchly SJ mother. Being a T (thinking) type of SJ (ESTJ), rather than an F (feeling) kind of SJ, she was (and is) a very judgmental person, very controlling, very planning, very directive. Hell, she could have been a member of ARI, except that she only approved of selfishness in herself. :-/ (I'm only partly kidding here.)

Anyway, I am an INTP, and my sister is some sort of E*FJ, either ESFJ or ENFJ. She's very artistic and intuitive and nurturing; she tends to view herself as an S(F)J, while I see her more as an NF(J). In any case, her more tender and creative SFJ nature rubbed considerably against our mother's harsher STJ nature. And my more intellctual and theoretical NTP rubbed consdiderably against her more practical, concrete-level STJ. So, both Sis and I were at odds with Mom a lot growing up. But enough details about us.

Our dad was a softie, a nurturing, nature-oriented farmer, not great with either machinery or bookkeeping the farm business, but in love with the soil and the animals. He also loved history (especially genealogy) and would chat a lot about political issues, including ideology (e.g., whether communism was a noble idea that just didn't work -- his position). He also loved to travel and to socialize with people, as well as to get involved in "causes" to help others. He loved art and music, and he went to considerable lengths to help me get my musical training and to pick me up late at night after my high school music gigs (before I was able to drive). In general, he was a very "benevolent" guy, much more so than I am (or my mother is), for instance, and a lot more like my sister.

My sister and I view him as some sort of E*FP, and we are trying to settle it (or perhaps just entrench our impressions more firmly) by each taking the Temperament Sorter, giving the answers on his behalf. I just finished it, and he came out an Idealist (NF), and he was very clearly extraverted (E) and open-ended (P), so that translates to ENFP. I won't be surprised if my sister's results show him as an Artisan (SP), which would mean: ESFP. Either way, we're in the ballpark, because E*FP's tend to be pushovers for controlling ESTJs. Needless to say, I didn't get much guidance from Dad in how to deal with controlling women!

And my own aversion to the idea of going to New York c. 1970 and studying under Ayn Rand was fueled by this dynamic, too. I "sensed" even then, before knowing much about what happened between her and other people she was trying to "correct" or judge, that she was not the kind of person I wanted to be around. I'm not denying that I could have learned a great deal from her. I'm just saying that, for my personality type, it would have been very uncomfortable. (I think Leonard Peikoff is an INTP, too, and for the life of me, I don't see how he stuck it out that long. He was a better man than I am.)

Judith -- you said that you think Ayn Rand projected her preferred mode of functioning, NT, onto children in her writings. (The Comprachicos?) I think this is correct. However, although many people seem to think Rand was an INTJ (I think this is one of the two most likely guesses), my wife and I both suspect she was instead an INFJ. NFs are very hero-worshipping and literary-minded, and it is interesting to speculate that Rand was idealizing the NT type that was her ideal man -- the intuitive-thinking, inventing, theorizing, project-directing type -- and building her ethics -- and her stories -- around that type. (Most of the heroes in Atlas Shrugged were clearly NTs. I think Howard Roark was, too.)

Well, there's some food for thought. I'm off to breakfast now, then to the Magic Kingdom for another day of fun in the sun, making musical kewpie dolls with my trombone. :-/

REB

[cjsmall]

For an earlier discussion of this topic on the SOLO/RoR list see: Myers-Briggs Personality Test

[Judith]

Judith -- you said that you think Ayn Rand projected her preferred mode of functioning, NT, onto children in her writings. (The Comprachicos?) I think this is correct. However, although many people seem to think Rand was an INTJ (I think this is one of the two most likely guesses), my wife and I both suspect she was instead an INFJ. NFs are very hero-worshipping and literary-minded, and it is interesting to speculate that Rand was idealizing the NT type that was her ideal man -- the intuitive-thinking, inventing, theorizing, project-directing type -- and building her ethics -- and her stories -- around that type. (Most of the heroes in Atlas Shrugged were clearly NTs. I think Howard Roark was, too.)

Oooh. I LOVE discussions like this one!

Yes, I was thinking mostly of "The Comprachicos" when I made that statement, although Rand also made shorter comments of that type elsewhere, and referred to conflicts between children and adults in at least one essay in "The Romantic Manifesto" that suggested an "S" adult scolding an "N" child (I'm thinking of the "Buck Rogers never gets a cold" essay). Those essays resonated strongly for me when I read them, because they described my own childhood experiences pretty exactly (and they probably were based on her own experiences to a degree, and on projection to the degree that she was describing modern education). But after reading about personality theory and then re-reading Rand's essays, I realized that the essays DIDN'T describe the experiences of a good number of my little classmates.

I must respectfully disagree with your and your wife's assessment of Rand as being NF. "T" versus "F" refers to whether one uses thinking or feeling as the way one intuitively decides what is true in the world, and what one relies on first and primarily to figure out what is true. Think about how Rand phrased her sentences. Think about her rabid aversion to statements like, "I feel this is true." Think about her statement, reported in Nathaniel Branden's "Judgment Day", (approximate paraphrase) "if the truth will slay them, then let them die"; I can't imagine any NF ever saying anything like that. NFs are primarily people-oriented, while NTs are primarily idea-oriented. Above all, NFs are supremely tactful and are terribly, terribly worried about hurting other people's feelings. Was that Rand? I don't think that someone who was simply trying to emulate an ideal man or to project such a character would behave this way so consistently; it was an integral part of her nature. Admittedly, NFs are literary and hero-worshipping, but not all literary and hero-worshipping people are NFs, and the rest of the picture simply doesn't fit. NTs have extremely intense emotions; they simply "don't see them as tools of cognition" (at least theoretically! that's not to say that they're not sometimes overwhelmed by them to the point where they don't see reason). As I said, the big picture points overwhelmingly to INT(something, probably J).

Judith

[Fran]

Ooh, me too - I also love discussions like this one.

Roger, I'm intrigued by your evaluation of Rand as an INFJ. At first I was sceptical, but after having re-read a profile for INFJ - it does fit to some extent.

Judith, with regard to your comments about NFs not wanting to hurt people's feelings; I would say that as an NF this brings me a lot of turmoil. I don't want to hurt people's feelings, but frequently do, and often this is in response to what I perceive as their lack of consideration for my feelings. Harsh treatment puts me under stress and I react differently when under stress than I would do normally. With people who are compassionate towards me, I am compassionate towards them.

Back to assessing Rand's profile. I understand that one way to unravel somebody's type is to see how they react when stressed, so I'm curious to see how this translates for AR. Here's something I copied off the web (emphasis mine):

http://www.discoveryourpersonality.com/new...chor-INFJ-32127

"One common way to tell that INFJs are feeling stressed is when they limit their options to just one. They might insist there is only one solution to a problem. Others become extremely critical or angry, often blaming people for their troubles. Some INFJs accuse other people of failing to help, while some will make even the simplest task unnecessarily complex. There can be paradoxical behavior: some INFJs might extravert a great deal, saying harsh things with little regard for the feelings of others. In contrast, some INFJs can become rather introspective and shut themselves off from the world or outside help. Still other INFJs set unrealistic goals for themselves, which just makes matters worse. Finally, some INFJs might eat or drink too much.

What are possible stressors for INFJs? Well, being forced to learn or retain vast amounts of detailed information can often have that affect. Being around too many people, particularly those whom the INFJ considers shallow can be stressful. If the INFJ feels like he or she is under great critical scrutiny, they can feel overwhelmed. Finally, if people are underappreciated or emotional charged conflict is not resolved, INFJs can feel stressed."

Another site suggests that INFJs under stress can be compulsive and hypercritical, becoming obsessed with detail and go over and over an issue without making headway [not pasted here due to copyright].

From reading MYWAR - the hypercritical does sound like Rand, it seems she did make a lot of harsh comments with little regard for people's feelings, and NB mentioned how they would discuss either his psychology endlessly, or the 'state of the nation' without resolution.

Comparing to INTJs under stress:

http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/Island/6653/intj.htm#badfit

INTJ Under Stress

Under great stress, people tend to "snap" and "flip" over to their non-preferred style. For INTJs this means:

Overindulges in Sensing activities -- eating, watching TV,

Becomes overly focused on their environment -- housecleaning, organizing cupboards

Which doesn't sound at all like Ayn Rand! Nowhere in MYWAR do I recall NB talking about Rand's obsessive tidying - she barely remembered to feed herself or Frank.

It does also talk about INTJs in a bad fit:

INTJ in a Bad Fit

If INTJs find themselves in a frustrating work situation where their contributions and talents are not used or not appreciated, they may:

Become aloof and abrupt, processing internally

Be critical of those who do not see their vision

The latter sounds like Rand, but not so much the former.

I've checked the above on another site with similar results (scroll down to bottom for information on reactions to stress):

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/mb-types/intj.htm

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/mb-types/infj.htm

Looking at AR's profile under stress, adds weight to your ascertion, Roger, that Rand was an INFJ and not an INTJ - this surprises me as I was so sure that she was an INTJ.

[Judith]

Judith, with regard to your comments about NFs not wanting to hurt people's feelings; I would say that as an NF this brings me a lot of turmoil. I don't want to hurt people's feelings, but frequently do, and often this is in response to what I perceive as their lack of consideration for my feelings. Harsh treatment puts me under stress and I react differently when under stress than I would do normally. With people who are compassionate towards me, I am compassionate towards them.

Yeah, one of my best friends is an INFJ, and I sometimes inadvertently step on her toes. At work, I have to be aggressive to be heard at all; it's often a bit of an effort to remember that with her, a very soft whisper and a mild suggestion is all that's needed to get my point across, and if I forget and speak in my "work" manner, I can cause pain without intending to.

Back to assessing Rand's profile. I understand that one way to unravel somebody's type is to see how they react when stressed, so I'm curious to see how this translates for AR. Here's something I copied off the web (emphasis mine):

http://www.discoveryourpersonality.com/new...chor-INFJ-32127

"One common way to tell that INFJs are feeling stressed is when they limit their options to just one. They might insist there is only one solution to a problem. Others become extremely critical or angry, often blaming people for their troubles. Some INFJs accuse other people of failing to help, while some will make even the simplest task unnecessarily complex. There can be paradoxical behavior: some INFJs might extravert a great deal, saying harsh things with little regard for the feelings of others. In contrast, some INFJs can become rather introspective and shut themselves off from the world or outside help. Still other INFJs set unrealistic goals for themselves, which just makes matters worse. Finally, some INFJs might eat or drink too much.

What are possible stressors for INFJs? Well, being forced to learn or retain vast amounts of detailed information can often have that affect. Being around too many people, particularly those whom the INFJ considers shallow can be stressful. If the INFJ feels like he or she is under great critical scrutiny, they can feel overwhelmed. Finally, if people are underappreciated or emotional charged conflict is not resolved, INFJs can feel stressed."

Another site suggests that INFJs under stress can be compulsive and hypercritical, becoming obsessed with detail and go over and over an issue without making headway [not pasted here due to copyright].

From reading MYWAR - the hypercritical does sound like Rand, it seems she did make a lot of harsh comments with little regard for people's feelings, and NB mentioned how they would discuss either his psychology endlessly, or the 'state of the nation' without resolution.

Comparing to INTJs under stress:

http://www.geocities.com/tokyo/Island/6653/intj.htm#badfit

INTJ Under Stress

Under great stress, people tend to "snap" and "flip" over to their non-preferred style. For INTJs this means:

Overindulges in Sensing activities -- eating, watching TV,

Becomes overly focused on their environment -- housecleaning, organizing cupboards

Which doesn't sound at all like Ayn Rand! Nowhere in MYWAR do I recall NB talking about Rand's obsessive tidying - she barely remembered to feed herself or Frank.

It does also talk about INTJs in a bad fit:

INTJ in a Bad Fit

If INTJs find themselves in a frustrating work situation where their contributions and talents are not used or not appreciated, they may:

Become aloof and abrupt, processing internally

Be critical of those who do not see their vision

The latter sounds like Rand, but not so much the former.

I've checked the above on another site with similar results (scroll down to bottom for information on reactions to stress):

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/mb-types/intj.htm

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/mb-types/infj.htm

Looking at AR's profile under stress, adds weight to your ascertion, Roger, that Rand was an INFJ and not an INTJ - this surprises me as I was so sure that she was an INTJ.

Hmmm. Interesting. I've seen Rand listed by the experts in the books in the "lists of famous people" as INTP or INTJ, but never as NF, and my gut just leans against it; I just can't see her as that people-oriented.

I looked up the URLs you listed, and found the following for INTP:

"http://www.discoveryourpersonality.com/newsletter32.html:

"Let's start with INTPs. What are the signs that an INTP is under stress?

"Some things to watch for include being overly sensitive, becoming disorganized and unproductive, or focusing on minor logical inconsistencies to the point of excluding all else. Other INTPs can become caustic with their comments, with snide remarks or sarcasm. Some will display passive-aggressive behavior or have emotional outbursts. Finally, some INTPs will procrastinate, withdraw from others, and resent others who make demands upon them.

"Stressors for INTPs include people they consider incompetent, particularly if they cause delays or trouble for the INTP. Other stress factors include irrational acts by others, or when people become emotional in response to an INTP's calm, rational evaluation of a situation or problem. If an INTP feels out of control in a situation, particularly when others are giving orders or instructions, and the INTP has little or no input into how the situation will be resolved, they can feel stress. Many INTPs feel time spent discussing personal issues or emotions is wasted time."

Speaking as an INTP myself, I can say that that's certainly true of the type. It sounds reasonably consistent with what I've read about Rand as well.

From the "Team Technology" web site, I found the following about INTP:

"Recognising Stress

"As stress increases, 'learned behaviour' tends to give way to the natural style, so the INTP will behave more according to type when under greater stress. For example, in a crisis, the INTP might:

"withdraw to think about the central issue that needs attention

"suggest various ideas, and use the feedback received to support the intellectual analysis

"debate the issue from an intellectual point of view, and leave it very late before making a decision

"criticise others efforts and ignore their feelings

"Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the INTP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ESFJ. Example characteristics are:

"expressing intense negative emotions towards others

"being very sensitive to criticism

"becoming preoccupied with details, without any logical basis

"interpreting facts or events in a very subjective way

"The shadow is part of the unconscious that is often visible to others, onto whom the shadow is projected. The INTP may therefore readily see these faults in others without recognising it in him/her self. "

That also sounds like Rand.

Judith

[Judith]

You know, I did some more reading on types over the weekend, and on reconsideration, I don't think there's any way Rand could have been INTP. More specifically, I don't think there's any way Rand could have been a "P". Her dislike of surprises and her proclivity for pronouncing a liking or disliking for things (having "favorite" everythings, etc.) suggests, in fact, that she was probably a very strong "J".

Judith

[Danneskjold]

I'm an INTJ loud and proud. Except my introvertedness is weird. You get me with enough people and i go extraverted but other than that I'm strong on all those. I like it. However, it's a little weird when I go on trips with my baseball team and such. I tend to be the butt of most jokes because I act unusually. For instance foruming when I could be getting with girls. O well, all in the life of a high schooler.

[studiodekadent]

Im a borderline ENTP/INTP... can be introverted or extroverted but am certainly an NTP type. So Im either an Inventor or an Architect. I especially love how as an ENTP I am described as being able to "display a charming capacity to ignore the standard, the traditional, and the authoritative." And as an INTP, Im likened to Howard Roark (Yes! Yes! Yes!) and Adam Smith (not my favorite, but a very respectable economist nonetheless).

In Enneagrams, Im very much a typical type-8. Basic fear of being controlled... that is right on the head of the nail. Its an absolute phobia in my case. Although the E-gram has a kind of mystic approach to personal growth, I dont see why I cant take the good bits out.

[Fran]

Although the E-gram has a kind of mystic approach to personal growth, I dont see why I cant take the good bits out.

I like the Enneagram for this reason too. There are some useful and insightful bits in Buddhism which I'm quite keen to learn more about.

[Faust06]

I've had quite an obsession with typology once. Tried to understand myself as thoroughly as possible.

I'm INTP, and frequent the intpcentral forum.. it can get interesting talking to others so like yourself. If I had to guess, Rand was probably somewhere between an INTP and INTJ.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Faust06

[Laure]

I'm an ISTJ, the S being the weakest (lots of N mixed in). I wonder if we've got Rand right. Couldn't she have been an ENTJ? Do introverts typically have people over to the house and stay up with them until 3 in the morning? Might all we introverts be projecting this trait onto her?