God or No God or Something Else?

[Guyau]

4 hours ago, tmj said:

I. . . In practical terms any masking/blocking measures below the level of positive pressure  suits would serve no actual medical benefit.

. . .

So my never getting Covid 19 could not have been due to me wearing a mask?

Politically motivated libertarians (lower govt. expenditure) took to the libertarian press in the early 1990's urging HIV-infected people like me to not listen to government information on the cause of AIDS. Citing Dr. Duesberg, they maintained the syndrome was not caused by a virus, but by poor lifestyle (doing drugs, not sleeping, not eating right). I didn't have any such lifestyle, but they really didn't care to listen to that. I trusted Dr. Fauci et al. and my doctor, and I still do, having been rescued from death by AIDS these last three decades by following their recommendations.

John Steinbeck once quipped "A man can be proud of most anything if it's all he's got." So whereas in the era of my political activism, we had the weighty government tyranny of mandated service in the Army (where at that time one would be trained to kill and maim and be at risk of bing killed or maimed yourself) to banner in our call for liberty; now we have mandates to wear a mask. No. Wait. Today we have some States setting up irrational mandates of personal service by pregnant women through irrational, science-ignoring criminal proscriptions of abortion.<—(1, 2)

 

[tmj]

10 minutes ago, Guyau said:

So my never getting Covid 19 could not have been due to me wearing a mask?

 

 

Have you verified that you do not have any antibodies to the WuFlu ? I think it is reasonable to assume that practically everyone has been exposed and that in most cases the course of the infection was relatively mild, perhaps you did become infected but didn't notice.

Early in the pandemic I was paying attention to discussions of mitigation , cuz self preservation, but I was always skeptical about the idea that masking could contain viral spread given the nature of cloth masks in particular. I did see a demonstration in support of the argument that it could block transmission, the logic of the argument was that layered cloth , like a folded handkerchief or bandana could stop particles the size of virons based on the demonstration that light could not penetrate the weave and since photons are smaller than virus particles , the virons would be blocked, too. I almost accepted that was workable/ worth it, but in about two minutes I realized that my breath still escaped around the edges of a bandana and even around the edges of the n95s we had ( I have 'my aunt's' nose, the family bump/crook doesn't play nice with seal fitting regimens ). Photons are still smaller than virus particles , but they only go in a straight lines so the layering of the threads in a weave create a lattice or matrix sufficient enough to block enough of the paths of the photons that not enough get through to be detected by the eye , my gaseous exhales swirl all around and the giant in comparison virons hitch a ride on the flow.

I don't think masking kept you from getting covid.

 

[Guyau]

 

Tad, there could be other reasons, such as blood type and social distancing (and stopping going to the gym and attending dinner parties) and vaccination, that I did not get covid. However, it is a stretch to claim to know that masking provided no protection for me. 

[tmj]

Stephen

A stretch based on what?, and I ask about masking in particular , because that is all I’m discussing , I didn’t raise any other possibilities as to how you were not infected.

[Guyau]

 

Yes, you are missing what I am saying.

The stretch is going to "I Tad know such and such could not be your case," which latter is an instance of your claim that "In practical terms any masking/blocking measures below the level of positive pressure suits would serve no actual medical benefit." The sense of "know" so as to apply to a particular case cannot be established with statistical results of a population (unless you're getting into the 5-sigma sort of confidence levels). And the claim "I Tad don't think masking kept you from getting Covid" is a step down in certitude from your starting claim of knowledge: "In practical terms any masking/blocking measures below the level of positive pressure suits would serve no actual medical benefit."

I mentioned the other behaviors and conditions that may have prevented me from getting Covid only by way of illustrating that I do not know if masking did the trick. I wouldn't rule it out as part of the protective bundle, but I do not claim knowledge it was so, only confidence in the experts I chose.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll take my advice from my scientific doctor, and urge others to do the same, and not from people, from any quarter, having overarching political agendas or political analyses and conjectures in play. Reality and survival are not attained by making politics the decisive interest and paramount lens in every matter.

A philosophy scholar at the master's level wrote a book titled Critique of Patriarchal Reason. He held forth a script of all Western epistemology and metaphysics being really about quashing feminism. It is junk and did nothing to advance thought in epistemology or metaphysics. A site headlined by the names Objectivist or Objectivism or Rand need not have every subject lead to politics, rather than steady on the named philosophy area of the philosophy sectors of the site. If the headline were Libertarian or Equitarian or some other political philosophy or party, that would be different; then it would be true to the advertisement to turn most everything taken up into the political.

[tmj]

It is not political for me , it’s more about the weave, photons and air flow, but mainly the air flow.

[Strictlylogical]

14 hours ago, Guyau said:

 

Yes, you are missing what I am saying.

The stretch is going to "I Tad know such and such could not be your case," which latter is an instance of your claim that "In practical terms any masking/blocking measures below the level of positive pressure suits would serve no actual medical benefit." The sense of "know" so as to apply to a particular case cannot be established with statistical results of a population (unless you're getting into the 5-sigma sort of confidence levels). And the claim "I Tad don't think masking kept you from getting Covid" is a step down in certitude from your starting claim of knowledge: "In practical terms any masking/blocking measures below the level of positive pressure suits would serve no actual medical benefit."

I mentioned the other behaviors and conditions that may have prevented me from getting Covid only by way of illustrating that I do not know if masking did the trick. I wouldn't rule it out as part of the protective bundle, but I do not claim knowledge it was so, only confidence in the experts I chose.*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll take my advice from my scientific doctor, and urge others to do the same, and not from people, from any quarter, having overarching political agendas or political analyses and conjectures in play. Reality and survival are not attained by making politics the decisive interest and paramount lens in every matter.

A philosophy scholar at the master's level wrote a book titled Critique of Patriarchal Reason. He held forth a script of all Western epistemology and metaphysics being really about quashing feminism. It is junk and did nothing to advance thought in epistemology or metaphysics. A site headlined by the names Objectivist or Objectivism or Rand need not have every subject lead to politics, rather than steady on the named philosophy area of the philosophy sectors of the site. If the headline were Libertarian or Equitarian or some other political philosophy or party, that would be different; then it would be true to the advertisement to turn most everything taken up into the political.

I also attempt to follow doctors who attempt to follow science as opposed to those who purport to follow it.

You note politics is a major force in todays culture, and excoriate a student of objectivism for possibly succumbing to its evading and biasing influences and yet you perhaps underestimate those very effects on the mainstream doctor who may or may not be as self aware about such things nor as conscientious about checking premises as that student of objectivism.

Since we are not in possession of all the information a question of the science is largely moot or irrelevant, it comes down to who you trust… people are not science, in fact scientists are not science… we all are subject to information scarcity, political biases and yes, believe it or not some deception and evasion. 

I have heard of some studies that show masking is ineffective… and a minority of doctors and scientists, let’s call them skeptics of the narrative, have been trying to inform the public in face of monolithic obedience to the so called consensus.

In a few years you might find out getting the virus would have been better than getting mRNA injections… but those studies are still not getting attention.

Do not project your honesty and integrity and respect for human life on everyone in power… no matter how much better that might make you feel.

[Strictlylogical]

14 hours ago, Guyau said:

A site headlined by the names Objectivist or Objectivism or Rand need not have every subject lead to politics, rather than steady on the named philosophy area of the philosophy sectors of the site. If the headline were Libertarian or Equitarian or some other political philosophy or party, that would be different; then it would be true to the advertisement to turn most everything taken up into the political.

This sounds like a plaintive premised either on the lack of necessity or relevance of the current political climes to the deeply held morays, convictions, and beliefs of a good Objectivist.

As a normie or an Objectivist, I have no doubt whatever, that something has been poked, agitated, and unleashed in the wake of the whole "drain the swamp" MAGA DT election and win of 2016... and the reactionary waves of censorship, top down lying, wokeism, the pandemic itself, and the subsequent lurches to totalitarianism and warmongering, ecoterrorism and eco-authoritarianism, ...  all of this is TRULY exceptional... and exceptionally bad for freedom loving individualists.

ANY political view, party, or movement which is inimical to life becomes an issue FOR Objectivists when they come to prominence, in fact I am appalled how silent most so-called "representatives" of Objectivism have been in the face of all the attacks on what is left of an America that could and should be.

[Guyau]

 

SL, "beliefs of a good Objectivist"

The fictional ideal human characters of Rand's—Howard Roark, John Galt, and Dagny Taggart—spent how much of their time being political activists? Is that "none" a good example for the youth of our nation, who, like those heroes, value individual freedom? Yes, and I wish I had always followed their example in that. 

You sound young. The imposition of wage and price controls by the President in 1971 was a more grave threat to freedom in America than all the present items you mentioned and their combined weight were we to add in all the anti-freedoms put forth by today's "right" as well. It was THEN that we were closest (since WWII) to the Directive 10-289 of Atlas Shrugged. You mentioned warmongering of the present. That is nothing compared to the devastation of freedom in America that occurred during the warmongering in America during the WWI era. Vigilante groups deputized by law enforcement could come in and search your home for any signs of disloyalty towards America (meaning any dissent to Wilson entering America in the war against the Kaiser's aggression). My grandmother showed me the bureau, still in the dining room of the farm house in the 1960's, where she would keep things like the properly folded American flag and copies of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution for the intruders to find. Her husband's brother was tarred and feathered for speaking German on the telephone (party-line phone system). He could not speak English. A year ago last autumn, we drove from Virginia to Colorado to visit my older sister (the only other survivor from my family). As we drove past the penitentiary at Ft. Leavenworth, I couldn't bear to look at it because of the history there during WWI. German Americans of a Christian faith in which pacifism was part of the faith were imprisoned there, brutally tortured to death, and their bodies dressed in US Army uniforms for their relatives to come and reclaim. 

Did you get called up for pre-induction physical for being drafted into the Army in America, land of the free? I don't think so. I think your eligible-age years were after that. That draft for that war was abolished before your turn, pretty sure. A few years later, the government debated and passed reinstatement of draft registration. My comrades and I campaigned heavily against reinstatement, but we failed. There have been tremendously terrible anti-individual-freedom currents in this country a long time. And what about the FDR years? No, I do not see the recent years in America as containing "exceptionally bad" currents against freedom in America that have occurred.

One might make politics the raison-d'etre of the whole philosophy that is Objectivism, given these "exceptional" times in America. Let your roads and interests lead there. I've a different vista and travel plans.

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On 3/12/2023 at 3:38 PM, Guyau said:

I trusted Dr. Fauci et al. and my doctor, and I still do...

Stephen,

Just on the logic, not on the hot-button issue, it is possible for Fauci to do good things and bad things at the same time, just like any human being.

You report good results from following his advice. However, The Dallas Buyer's Club was made for a reason and Fauci was one of the villains.

One of the best pieces of advice I believe Fauci ever gave to people during the pandemic was to wash their hands with soap for 20 seconds. That kills viruses. I still do this until today and I believe my health thanks me for it.

I, myself, did not see any value in the mask thing, though. Breathing in residues from my own snot and vaporized spit for hours on end did not appeal to me.  Also, peer reviewed studies (for those who like these things) are appearing more and more these days talking about the negligible to zero effect they have and have had in public places in terms of halting contagion.

 

People are free to believe what they want, though.

As to the excessive public quarantining during the pandemic, which is a freedom issue, I think it was a good idea in the early days, and then lost it's medical reason to exist as the political reason (and the moolah reason from massive government contracts) kicked in.

Fauci-wise, I don't want to offend you, but I am no fan. In fact, I think he has massive numbers of deaths at his feet and he did it for money. See Robert F. Kennedy Jr's. book on him, The Real Anthony Fauci, for many examples. You will find countless footnotes documenting everything from the beginning of his career up to the present. (btw - I read that thing in audiobook. It's not a short read. Lots and lots of facts with sources for them all.)

But I took one thing Fauci said to heart. I believe washing my hands for 20 seconds with soap works great in preventing contagions in general and I follow it with benefit until today.

I can't resist a quip.

Since this is a thread on whether God exists, let me state for the record that, despite what Fauci may believe, I say he's not God and I stand by that.

 

On a personal note, I never knew you suffered with the virus and I am glad you found a way to deal with it that kept you alive. Had I had the problem in the same context you did, I would have followed the doctors as you did rather than the bullshit about lifestyle.

Michael

[Strictlylogical]

11 hours ago, Guyau said:

 

SL, "beliefs of a good Objectivist"

The fictional ideal human characters of Rand's—Howard Roark, John Galt, and Dagny Taggart—spent how much of their time being political activists? Is that "none" a good example for the youth of our nation, who, like those heroes, value individual freedom? Yes, and I wish I had always followed their example in that. 

You sound young. The imposition of wage and price controls by the President in 1971 was a more grave threat to freedom in America than all the present items you mentioned and their combined weight were we to add in all the anti-freedoms put forth by today's "right" as well. It was THEN that we were closest (since WWII) to the Directive 10-289 of Atlas Shrugged. You mentioned warmongering of the present. That is nothing compared to the devastation of freedom in America that occurred during the warmongering in America during the WWI era. Vigilante groups deputized by law enforcement could come in and search your home for any signs of disloyalty towards America (meaning any dissent to Wilson entering America in the war against the Kaiser's aggression). My grandmother showed me the bureau, still in the dining room of the farm house in the 1960's, where she would keep things like the properly folded American flag and copies of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution for the intruders to find. Her husband's brother was tarred and feathered for speaking German on the telephone (party-line phone system). He could not speak English. A year ago last autumn, we drove from Virginia to Colorado to visit my older sister (the only other survivor from my family). As we drove past the penitentiary at Ft. Leavenworth, I couldn't bear to look at it because of the history there during WWI. German Americans of a Christian faith in which pacifism was part of the faith were imprisoned there, brutally tortured to death, and their bodies dressed in US Army uniforms for their relatives to come and reclaim. 

Did you get called up for pre-induction physical for being drafted into the Army in America, land of the free? I don't think so. I think your eligible-age years were after that. That draft for that war was abolished before your turn, pretty sure. A few years later, the government debated and passed reinstatement of draft registration. My comrades and I campaigned heavily against reinstatement, but we failed. There have been tremendously terrible anti-individual-freedom currents in this country a long time. And what about the FDR years? No, I do not see the recent years in America as containing "exceptionally bad" currents against freedom in America that have occurred.

One might make politics the raison-d'etre of the whole philosophy that is Objectivism, given these "exceptional" times in America. Let your roads and interests lead there. I've a different vista and travel plans.

 

Your exposition is excellent evidence for the position that things for a very long time (perhaps almost always) have been far worse than what we all have been brought up to believe.  That we, those relatively younger or more naive or trusting of mainstream media, should discover the Deep State is older, deeper, wider, and that America and indeed all of the West is so much farther from what it should and could be, is it no wonder we should show indignation and alarm?  Every time has its vices, and by your account, the Thing has a different incarnation or shows a different appendage of oppression every season and century.

You are not wrong by any means… but whether the tide is inward or outgoing, your words are good motivation and yes, reason enough for freedom lovers and individualists of all kinds to keep talking… and by God to speak up oh so much louder and stronger.

[Guyau]

5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

personal note,

A, B, C

[Strictlylogical]

On 3/13/2023 at 10:33 PM, Guyau said:

The fictional ideal human characters of Rand's—Howard Roark, John Galt, and Dagny Taggart—spent how much of their time being political activists?

So this is in the spirit of honest interest.

I note you use the term “political activist” and imply John Galt was not one or spent little time being one.  This is somewhat interesting because Galt is a man of action, in the face of culture, philosophy, politics, all of society going down the wrong paths he vowed in front of a room of witnesses to stop the motor of the world and he spent years pursuing, persuading and getting the Atlases of the world to shrug.  He wasn’t merely an ethicist or personal guru, spreading ideas and wisdom to whomever would come to his shrine, he actively went incognito and set out to literally change the world which he did through long and laborious effort.

If his actions, motivation, and time spent did not constitute or include being politically active or activist, I wonder just what to you (directly and concisely) would constitute “political activism” as you use the term?

[Guyau]

SL,

Main Thing about John Galt

John Galt's "activism" of the collective strike is not one that is possible in the real world. That sort of strike is not possible, just like "What if there were a war, and nobody came?" or "I might not ever die."

There are plenty of things John Galt does that are possible in the real world. Among the things possible in the real world, one thing Galt does not do is political activism, in the usual meaning, which are the things I did beginning a dozen years after AS was issued: march in demonstrations, write letters to the editor and to your Congressional Representative and to your Senators (in Galt's day and mine, that was on paper), contribute money and time to the party of liberty, i.e, The Libertarian Party (I used the project of getting signatures from the public for our candidates to be on the ballot as a way of telling about 3,000 individuals the word and brief meaning of "libertarianism" [very few people in those days had heard of it; I would hand to them a pamphlet, written by Roy Childs, titled Libertarianism, which had the closing line: "We aim to abolish the power of governments all over the world, including the American government, to conscript, loot, and kill."]). 

Galt's Speech would be the closest to some political activism by him possible in the real world. At least you could publish it in the real world. It contains political philosophy, and it could be sensibly read as containing political advocacy. Of course that would be rather understating the contents of the tract. As anyone here would know, it lays out a moral revolution at odds with the dominant moral outlook of the previous two thousand years. And later, Rand would learn from one of her young philosophy PhD candidates that what she thought of as her "completion" of Aristotle in metaphysics was actually far more significant in the history of philosophy than she had known. So if you handed that tract (say, as in For the New Intellectual) to people, were they to read it, it might be taken as an advocacy of radical capitalism, although that would leave unsaid the real dynamite.

The climax of the novel to me is Dagny's climax, the writing from her seeing him in the crew of workers she is addressing, to "he will follow" to "nothing more was possible" with her cape across the rails and the man at the end of the rails at last lying beside her. That plane of the novel and the plane of Galt's engineering/physics achievement are big attractions to fans of the book; many people I encounter who love the book remain with politics quite different from Rand's.

The actions of Ragnar might be seen as political activism, but that is incorrect. In the real world, Ragnar's acts would be only attempts. The US Navy would make short work of him. If captured alive, he would reside in Federal prison, which, contra Rand in fiction, would be just. The police sometimes gave me trouble over my posting of campaign bumper stickers in public places. But any illegality I was involved in was by way of political activism (specifically, advertising). The violence of a Ragnar is not political activism.

[Strictlylogical]

2 hours ago, Guyau said:

John Galt's "activism" of the collective strike is not one that is possible in the real world.

 

2 hours ago, Guyau said:

Galt's engineering/physics achievement

 

I would have characterized the result of his activism as merely “implausible” and his fantastical invention as literally “impossible”.

In any case I think I see now what specific meaning you ascribe to political activism… and it seems limited to public persuasion in the so called public political sphere.

I grant in that sense Washington himself was not a political activist… such would be far too small a label for him and his achievements… which in retrospect were quite implausible.

 

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:31 AM, Guyau said:

A, B, C

Stephen,

Jerry looks a lot like a friend I had in Brazil, Azevedo. He also died of AIDS.

I had an actress girlfriend at the time. She had come to São Paulo from a small instate town and was worried about being in the big city. Then she found a group of young gay men who idolized her. They treated her like princess, constantly dressed her with things they bought and made, and she was always on hand to wag her finger in their noses as she laid down shoulds and should nots.  They could not get enough of her nor she them.

Obviously, I became friends with all of them. Azevedo used to cut my hair and he was good at it. I was directing dubbing back then and one guy in particular, Marcus, ended up being a fine dubbing artist even though he never dubbed before. I called him back several times. We all did lots and lots of visits. We teased each other constantly, too. They used to tell me to be careful because they didn't know anyone on their side who went straight, just as they didn't know anyone on my side who crossed over and went back.  

I probably should let the following story die, but I find it so cute, I have to write it some where. Azevedo had a lifelong longing to be a singer. Since I was a producer, I thought, why not? I was doing a show and, during a rehearsal of one of the artists I was producing, I had the singer give the mic to Azevedo. He looked terrified. I told him to show me what he's got. The band did an intro, Azevedo put the mic in front of his face, took a deep breath and fainted.

 

This really happened.

I'm not sure he ever lived that one down.

I had a lot of fun with those guys. And every fucking one of them died from AIDS within a short period. The entire group of about 12 friends. I remember my girlfriend trying to give them hope and taking them back and forth to the hospital, especially Paulo who cried a lot and constantly said he was too young to die. He was studying to be a lawyer.

But they all went.

I didn't pay much attention to treatments at the time as all this AIDS stuff was new and health care had never been my thing, but I do remember the word AZT being bandied about among them with a lot of hope. 

But they all died, and died quickly.

That quickness with the entire group stuck with me as one of those things you encounter and can't explain. The oddness never went away in my mind.

A lot of people I knew kept their distance from me back then when that happened. Some even asked me if I was afraid of being infected from being around them. I never was. In fact, I always felt the question weird. Sort of like someone asking me if I was terrified of being run over by a car. I understood the question and why they would ask it, but I never could resonate with it on any level. In fact, fear was far from my emotional life about this. I was angry that they had died. I still am.

My deepest condolences for Jerry's passing, even at this late date.

Michael

[Guyau]

 

Thank you, Michael, and thank you for sharing those stories.

Friends of Jer and I began to die in about 1984. By the end of the decade, it was, I think, about a dozen friends per year. We knew I was infected when we learned late in '87 that Jer had AIDS (he came down with the pneumonia, which was a death sentence). For the last 6 months of his life, we stopped attending memorial services, though he was still able until going to the hospital; it was not good for him, and they had become horribly frequent. He had to be in the hospital only at the beginning and at the end. I did not think much about my pending death as long as he was alive. I was consumed with each step of fighting against his current diseases and afflictions. I would not stop fighting. Finally one doctor at the hospital called me at home and told me the facts (and my feelings be damned, thank goodness) and answered my questions straight. That was about a week before Jer's death, and it was after that talk with that doc that I had the order changed to "Do not resuscitate."

I was pretty far behind Jer on destruction of my immune system by the disease. That may have had something to do with genetics, as he was half Choctaw, but it was most likely because I was infected by him and each generation of the virus became less virulent. Jer thought they would find a cure in time to rescue me, and he was horrified by the thought that he might cause my death. It turned out that the medical breakthrough was coming, although it took 6 more years, much longer than he had hoped for. My doctor was getting each new medicine to me that reached clinical trials. My worst depth was in '94-'95 when my pertinent T-cell count fell way below 200 per cu. mm., the level that had come to be taken as mark for diagnosis as AIDS. My doctor ordered a medicine I could inhale at home, by a machine I got hold of, a medicine that could help against getting the lung infection. I never knew anyone who got that infection and was not dead by a couple of years later.

That I was on a definite course for dying was a bit of consolation to me in the death of Jerry. Continued company of friends also helped. I cried twice a day for a year. Then I was a step better emotionally and a little able to get memory out of that hospital scene at his death, which you read about. After 3 years, I was emotionally ready to find new love, but did not take up a search. On the fifth anniversary of his death, when I brought the annual flowers to the spot at the lake at sunrise where I had spread his ashes, I thought, even though I was very sick, "this is wrong, I might still be coming here after ten years." I resolved to take time to try to find someone and make it happen again. Several months later, I met Walter through a section of Personal ads reserved for HIV people in search of HIV people. He understood profoundly that Jerry was in me, and he helped me in getting to the lake.* For the 20th sunrise, I took the train from Lynchburg to Chicago. Soon we planted peonies at our place and let my old ritual go. As Brant also quoted here: "There is a land of the living and a land of the dead, and the bridge is love."

[Peter]

A while back Stephen wrote something that really made me think: Stephen Boydstun wrote: "But he was dishonorably discharged, there in the Mediterranean. He was flown off the ship, then back to the States. He returned home, told his father that he was gay and had been discharged. His father never spoke to him again as long as he lived." end quote

That is awful and unfair. And I hope this is appropriate to say, Mister Stephen Boydstun. Stay around as long as possible. Peter

[william.scherk]