Did you hear the BBC on Rand and Branden today?

[S-E]

heard this on the history of ideas today. 

(quote the BBC,  ''high self esteem correlates with racism''  end quote)

 

link to the show its only 12 min long

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

S-E,

Thanks for posting that, even though listening to it was a bit like hearing fingernails scraping across a blackboard.

 

It's funny how they mentioned NB's six pillars, but then blanked ALL of them out as they talked about the self-esteem movement in public schools and, by implication, pinned that on NB. The way the self-esteem movement developed in the government and NGOs (and even some spinoff therapists) had nothing to do with NB's concept. What they developed was more in line with Marcuse and the old hippy movement (if it feels good do it) without the sex and drugs.

They fared a bit better on Rand, but, frankly, not much.

Still, it's good to see her and him discussed outside the community.

btw - I fixed the spelling of Branden in your title.

Michael

 

[william.scherk]

BBC blurb and MP3 file ...

Quote

Ayn Rand and Selfishness
A History of Ideas

The Russian-American novelist Ayn Rand believed that behaving rationally meant putting your own interests first: you actually have a moral duty to be selfish. Altruism or self-sacrifice are immoral, she claimed, as is asking for help from others. Clearly this goes against most traditional views of ethics, but Rand's views have become influential, particularly in some corners of American politics.

Rand's protege, Nathaniel Branden, developed her ideas to stress the importance of self-esteem - the route to personal fulfilment was feeling good about yourself. Many people, even those who would reject Ayn Rand's core philosophy, have subsequently believed that low self-esteem is at the root of social problems such as crime and educational underachievement, and that we should aim to boost it.

But is self-esteem really such a good thing? As Paul Broks discovers, the research suggests that some people have too much self-esteem, not too little. Maybe the route to a good life is not through feeling good about yourself, but being resilient to knocks that fate deals you.

 

[S-E]

I couldn't bear it alone...

don't know much about the self esteem movement,  is it part of the ''every body gets a gold meddle''  type policy's in schools and the like? 

I loved the ending with the young man who found his self esteem in serving others,  its like they were shoving it in Rands face.  I mean out of all the examples of ''positive altruism'' surly he was not seriously being held up as one of them.

 

 

Cheers William, this is my first forum post in a while, i'm after getting rusty....

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

18 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

btw - I fixed the spelling of Branden in your title.

S-E,

I just caught another.

So I fixed "here" to "hear" in the title, also.

I should have caught that the first go around, so even I'm getting rusty.

17 hours ago, S-E said:

don't know much about the self esteem movement,  is it part of the ''every body gets a gold meddle''  type policy's in schools and the like? 

Yup.

And they think that is what NB was about.

Reading used to be a skill practiced widely when I was younger.

Apparently this is becoming an evolutionary relic in the human race over at the BBC.

 

As to the guy they interviewed who found the deepest joy in life by throwing his away, I wonder how much of that was fiction and how much fact...

It sounded staged to me, a little too neat and pat, and he didn't sound sincere.

Michael

[S-E]

What do you mean he didn't sound sincere? surly your not suggesting the great BBC would hire an actor just to plug there agenda 

[S-E]

Thanks Micheal  I'm sometimes guilty of typos, ''and maybe a few misspellings''    I'll try my best not to drop literary crumbs on your forum.

[BaalChatzaf]

16 hours ago, william.scherk said:

BBC blurb and MP3 file ...

 

the priority of rational and reasonable self interest  was not invented by Rand. 2300 years ago R. Hillel  said  If I am not for myself then who is for me?  If I am only  for myself  what am I?  If not now,  then when?  (Of course he said  it in Hebrew.  

אִם אֵין אֲנִי לִי, מִי לִי. וּכְשֶׁאֲנִי לְעַצְמִי, מָה אֲנִי. וְאִם לֹא

עַכְשָׁיו, אֵימָתַי

Of all the Abrahamic religions, Judaism is the most rational (as religions go)  and the least altruistic.

 

 

Live long and Prosper \\//

[S-E]

That is interesting,  Funny that Jews are also the most successful religion in business and academia.  Although as for altruism, ''from my understanding'' Jews seem to have an altruistic approach to fellow Jews, but a very none altruistic approach to none Jews, this  is what I think makes it such a strong religion for its size.

[Brant Gaede]

On 9/15/2018 at 5:18 AM, BaalChatzaf said:

the priority of rational and reasonable self interest  was not invented by Rand. 2300 years ago R. Hillel  said  If I am not for myself then who is for me?  If I am only  for myself  what am I?  If not now,  then when?  (Of course he said  it in Hebrew.  

אִם אֵין אֲנִי לִי, מִי לִי. וּכְשֶׁאֲנִי לְעַצְמִי, מָה אֲנִי. וְאִם לֹא

עַכְשָׁיו, אֵימָתַי

Of all the Abrahamic religions, Judaism is the most rational (as religions go)  and the least altruistic.

 

 

Live long and Prosper \\//

And it wasn't invented by that fellow either. Maybe the formulation was but it probably came out of his social/intellectual context. It actually comes out of human biology and necessity. The formulation is akin to the identification of a law of physics albeit without Newtonian rigor.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

 

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 1:30 PM, S-E said:

I couldn't bear it alone...

don't know much about the self esteem movement,  is it part of the ''every body gets a gold meddle''  type policy's in schools and the like? 

I loved the ending with the young man who found his self esteem in serving others,  its like they were shoving it in Rands face.  I mean out of all the examples of ''positive altruism'' surly he was not seriously being held up as one of them.

 

 

Cheers William, this is my first forum post in a while, i'm after getting rusty....

Self esteem is a consequence of making right choices, integrity and perseverance--rationality. NB has never received---to my knowledge--a proper critique of his self esteem ideas.

---Brant

[william.scherk]

8 hours ago, S-E said:

Jews seem to have an altruistic approach to fellow Jews, but a very none altruistic approach to none Jews

There is no monolith of Jewishness. The celebrated Jew (agnostic) Albert Einstein was an exemplar of Jewish anti-racialism. He went to bat for the 'Negro' of his time, teaching physics and appearing at traditionally black colleges and universities -- speaking out against segregation and other harms of the Jim Crow era. 

One of the arguments made by arch-racialist Kevin MacDonald is that The Joo is all-too-often committed to anti-racialism across the board, making common cause with other minority groups ... MacDonald's thesis suggests that The Joo is all-too-involved in "Civil Rights" coalitions, hiding Joo perfidy under cover of universalism, agitating for a 'color-blind' immigration policy ... that apparently led to all sorts of awful things, from MacDonald's perspective..

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by william.scherk
Added link

[BaalChatzaf]

5 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

And it wasn't invented by that fellow either. Maybe the formulation was but it probably came out of his social/intellectual context. It actually comes out of human biology and necessity. The formulation is akin to the identification of a law of physics albeit without Newtonian rigor.

--Brant

All of Hillel's  commentaries were made in an ethical and religious context.  I suspect R. Hillel accepted the Genesis count of the beginnings of things  as correct.  R. Hillel lived, thought and wrote in a pre-scientific time.