fiscal insanity...

[BaalChatzaf]

40 minutes ago, moralist said:

...but you're a slave as long as your living in them instead of the real world. That's the curse of the government educated intellect... thinking without doing. It's why your government has you under its thumb.

 

Greg

You are the one living in fantasy land,  not I.  

[moralist]

7 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

You are the one living in fantasy land,  not I.  

My life isn't a government educated intellectual fantasy like yours, Bob.  And that's why you're always complaining about the government's power over you. Funny part is that the government isn't strong... you're weak.

I learned something from living in the real world, that your government could never teach you while you were sitting like an inert blob in school.

...and it's the government answers to exactly the same higher moral law that I do. So as long as I do what's morally right, the government leaves me alone to enjoy my life as a free American.

In contrast, your government's control over you is directly proportional to your own failure to do what's morally right.

 

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, moralist said:

My life isn't a government educated intellectual fantasy like yours, Bob.  And that's why you're always complaining about the government's power over you. Funny part is that the government isn't strong... you're weak.

I learned something from living in the real world, that your government could never teach you while you were sitting like an inert blob in school.

...and it's the government answers to exactly the same higher moral law that I do. So as long as I do what's morally right, the government leaves me alone to enjoy my life as a free American.

In contrast, your government's control over you is directly proportional to your own failure to do what's morally right.

 

Greg

I have designed weapon systems that have killed thousands of people.  If that isn't living in the real world what is?  I have blood on my hands up to my armpits. How many people have you killed, Mr.  Living in the Real World? 

[jts]

1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said:

I have designed weapon systems that have killed thousands of people.  If that isn't living in the real world what is?  I have blood on my hands up to my armpits. How many people have you killed, Mr.  Living in the Real World? 

Interesting measure of accomplishment. 

[BaalChatzaf]

36 minutes ago, jts said:

Interesting measure of accomplishment. 

I am merely asserting that I am very much in the  real world.  I decided in 1968 that I would no longer do any work for governments or corporations working under government contracts.  I cannot undo the damage I did,  but I was very much in the world  when I did my damage and I am still in the Real World.

[SteveWolfer]

53 minutes ago, jts said:

I have designed weapon systems

 

Designing a weapon system shouldn't be equated with serial killers.  Wouldn't that be like making a moral equivalency between Samuel Colt and Osama Bin Laden or Charles Manson?

 

Doesn't it matter who the weapons were designed for, and that designing, say a gun, is different from firing a gun at an innocent person?

 

Weapons are good things when used to defend individual rights.  The problem is that we've gone so far down the road of political correctness that even a mention of weapons is like a condemnation.

[moralist]

5 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

I have designed weapon systems that have killed thousands of people.  If that isn't living in the real world what is?  I have blood on my hands up to my armpits. How many people have you killed, Mr.  Living in the Real World? 

You're just a bootlicker, Bob. That's what the government educated you to be. Your own failure to do what's morally right is what gives your government the control over you that you complain about.

You're the one who complained about it. I'm only explaining why.

 

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Morally right has two components: to yourself and to others. Ideally you want both working the same morally right way and to the practical maximum.

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

10 hours ago, SteveWolfer said:

 

Designing a weapon system shouldn't be equated with serial killers.  Wouldn't that be like making a moral equivalency between Samuel Colt and Osama Bin Laden or Charles Manson?

 

Doesn't it matter who the weapons were designed for, and that designing, say a gun, is different from firing a gun at an innocent person?

 

Weapons are good things when used to defend individual rights.  The problem is that we've gone so far down the road of political correctness that even a mention of weapons is like a condemnation.

It was MY mind babies that shed blood.  I made the weapons for the front line warriors and at the time I did so willingly and with enthusiasm.  I have the weakness many technological folks have.  Offer me a tough problem and a chance to solve it and I will jump at the chance.  That was a me when I was much smarter than I am now,  but a lot less wiser.  I was played by the system.  Some of the work I did I would have done even if I were not paid to do it.  The doing is the fun and the joy.  Back then I did not see anything wrong with the consequences.  I actually was patriotic and happy to do the work!  In short,  I was an idolator and I served strange gods.   Those days are passed.  Now I question very rigorously what I do, and what the consequences are. 

Think of this scene:  Dr Strangelove, can you build a weapon that will target only enemies  of the Reich and the Fatherland?   Dr. Strangelove answer:  Ja, mein Fuhrer!!!  When do I start!!!??????

Ayn Rand believed all the intelligent and productive people would go on strike and head for Galt's Gulch.  Not so.  Young techno dweebs (I was one)   see primarily the work, the problems and the glory of solving them.  Morality is the last thing they have in mind.  

As long as government and industry offer computers,  really neat problems  and the chance to solve them,  the techno dweebs will line up  around the block to do it. 

[Peter]

Ba’al wrote: I actually was patriotic and happy to do the work!  In short, I was an idolater and I served strange gods.  end quote

You are sounding as loopy as Greg. While you were working you were using your reason and rationality for a country that has a Constitution designed to protect individual rights. You have been brainwashed by the social justice warriors. If you are an American and you lob an artillery shell or drop munitions on the enemy from a jet you are doing a moral thing. If you are a doctor and a patient dies . . . ? Bob, you should reread AS. Of course, we don't aim for civilians but it happens that some die.

Ba’al wrote: Ayn Rand believed all the intelligent and productive people would go on strike and head for Galt's Gulch.  Not so.  Young techno dweebs (I was one)  see primarily the work, the problems and the glory of solving them.  Morality is the last thing they have in mind.  end quote

You are dropping the entire context of your and their decisions (you were in a Free, moral country) and the premise of Doctor Strangelove. The Progressives who made that very funny movie, were mocking and drawing parallels between Nazi Germany and patriotic Americans.  That doesn’t hold up to the “Check Your Premises” code of logic.

Peter

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

Ba’al wrote: I actually was patriotic and happy to do the work!  In short, I was an idolater and I served strange gods.  end quote

You are sounding as loopy as Greg. While you were working you were using your reason and rationality for a country that has a Constitution designed to protect individual rights. You have been brainwashed by the social justice warriors. If you are an American and you lob an artillery shell or drop munitions on the enemy from a jet you are doing a moral thing. If you are a doctor and a patient dies . . . ? Bob, you should reread AS. Of course, we don't aim for civilians but it happens that some die.

Ba’al wrote: Ayn Rand believed all the intelligent and productive people would go on strike and head for Galt's Gulch.  Not so.  Young techno dweebs (I was one)  see primarily the work, the problems and the glory of solving them.  Morality is the last thing they have in mind.  end quote

You are dropping the entire context of your and their decisions (you were in a Free, moral country) and the premise of Doctor Strangelove. The Progressives who made that very funny movie, were mocking and drawing parallels between Nazi Germany and patriotic Americans.  That doesn’t hold up to the “Check Your Premises” code of logic.

Peter

I realize now that I was suckered and used.  The Suits who manage corporate projects and government projects are masters of deception.  The only excuse I can claim is lack of wisdom (at that time).  I have wised up since. 

Let's see now.  The U.S had slavery until 1865.  Large scale murder of the aboriginal peoples  in the 19 th century (we don't do that any more on this continent),  The U.S. has be fighting wars with no constitutional authorization from Congress ( a crew of whores who have abdicated their Constitutional authority),  and you call this a moral nation?????  Well the people of the country may be a decent lot (many are)  but the government is corrupt and rotten to the core and has been so for over 100 years. 

 

Better that you check your premises.....

[Peter]

Ba’al wrote: Well the people of the country may be a decent lot (many are) but the government is corrupt and rotten to the core and has been so for over 100 years. end quote

Seriously Bob Kolker, you are very mistaken and hyperbolic. I want to bring our country back to its “roots” but without the defect of a lack of rights for minorities and women. And how many who work for, or are elected to governmental positions, want to bring back those specific bad traits of American Government? How many voters? The number is so few it can be rounded off from zero to five percent. Is America great in a strict constructionist, Trumpian or Randian sense? Not yet but we were never Nazi Germany. Instead of being previously duped I would say you are currently self propagandized and SOUR. Walk on the sunny side of the street. From a philosophical standpoint, our founding document was substantially for individual rights and not for foreign wars of entanglement.  

Peter

From Wikipedia: The yellow badge (or yellow patch), also referred to as a Jewish badge (German: Judenstern, lit. Jews' star), was a cloth patch that Jews were ordered to sew on their outer garments to mark them as Jews in public at certain times in certain countries, serving as a badge of shame.

[moralist]

5 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

Morally right has two components: to yourself and to others. Ideally you want both working the same morally right way and to the practical maximum.

--Brant

Precisely put, Brant.

Greg

[moralist]

4 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

 I was played by the system.  

Only people who try to play the system can get played by the system, Bob. That can be a valuable lesson to learn because it can prevent the same thing from happening again..

"You can't cheat an honest man."

Greg

[moralist]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:45 PM, KorbenDallas said:

The phrase "endowed by their Creator" gives way too many people "proof" the US is a theocracy.

Just another thought on your comment...

"Endowed by their Creator" negates the government as a source of rights and puts the source of right where they rightfully belong. This had originally removed the government as peoples' god...

...however, the secularist majority in America have demanded the government be their god as the source of all rights and benefits... and that is why it is a bloated corrupt bankrupt bureaucracy today... a perfect match to the thoroughly rotten values of the parasites it governs.

 

Greg

[moralist]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 7:02 PM, Brant Gaede said:

My late sister lost her job because she refused to sign off on fraudulent accounting by a firm that subsisted on a state government contract. The idea was to keep the government money flowing into the company. She needed the employment.

--Brant

...and she had become more of an American by exercising her right to choose. It is impossible to place a value on moral character, for it is more precious than gold and silver. I found that there are always plenty of decent people with whom to do business. People with matching values always find each other.

 

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

1 hour ago, moralist said:

Just another thought on your comment...

"Endowed by their Creator" negates the government as a source of rights and puts the source of right where they rightfully belong. This had originally removed the government as peoples' god...

...however, the secularist majority in America have demanded the government be their god as the source of all rights and benefits... and that is why it is a bloated corrupt bankrupt bureaucracy today... a perfect match to the thoroughly rotten values of the parasites it governs.

Greg

Great point!

--Brant

and you need not believe in God for "Creator" can be abstracted differently, but GOVERNMENT did not create you (you can say "endowed by Nature")

[KorbenDallas]

2 hours ago, moralist said:

Just another thought on your comment...

"Endowed by their Creator" negates the government as a source of rights and puts the source of right where they rightfully belong. This had originally removed the government as peoples' god...

...however, the secularist majority in America have demanded the government be their god as the source of all rights and benefits... and that is why it is a bloated corrupt bankrupt bureaucracy today... a perfect match to the thoroughly rotten values of the parasites it governs.

 

Greg

Greg,

Some people when they choose not to believe in god they abandon morality, too.  Some become secular humanists for morality (it seems a lot of the liberal left exhibit this trait), and then you have subjective judgments based off of "injustices" that "happen."  These people become so lost in trying to determine morality, often taking the form of "what's fair and what's not fair."  Everyone starts pointing fingers at what becomes their authorities, their neighbor, their mother-in-law, their boss, that guy on the highway that cut them short in traffic, the sunrise, life itself.  But there's another option, one that doesn't derive morality from authority...

Objectivism.  (And I bet you knew I'd say that at some point )  I think Jefferson had a vague idea of this in his original draft for the Declaration.

But we are free to practice religion, or not practice it, and I think life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is a good starting point, one that pertains to the individual, and should help coexistence with others...

But there's another interpretation for life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness--one that people don't have to work to achieve these things, and unfortunately it seems this is becoming the idea of what America is today... and a bureaucracy reflecting that... government as authority...

 

[KorbenDallas]

2 hours ago, moralist said:

Just another thought on your comment...

"Endowed by their Creator" negates the government as a source of rights and puts the source of right where they rightfully belong. This had originally removed the government as peoples' god...

...however, the secularist majority in America have demanded the government be their god as the source of all rights and benefits... and that is why it is a bloated corrupt bankrupt bureaucracy today... a perfect match to the thoroughly rotten values of the parasites it governs.

 

Greg

Apropos... from Brietbart: "Independence Day, RIP":  http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/07/02/independence-day-rip/
 

Edited July 4, 2016 by KorbenDallas
happy 4th, everyone

[moralist]

3 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

 

and you need not believe in God for "Creator" can be abstracted differently, but GOVERNMENT did not create you (you can say "endowed by Nature")

As I experience God... He is infinitely subtle and abstract. I can know his effects by observing the world and by the direct effect of physical and moral law upon my life.

There is also something else... but that is completely up to God and has absolutely nothing to do with anything that anyone could ever possibly do. I can say that it does involve loving what's morally right, but even that is not within anyone's power as it is not even our love.

As I experience nature living here on the border of its raw edge, it's just another set of physical effects that don't rise to the level of an essence. This is because nature can only obey a higher governing order of physical laws without originating or designing them. So it points beyond itself to Something Else.

I don't consider this to be an point important, however... as acknowledging the effect of physical and moral law is sufficient for a need-to-know basis of living.

I don't need to know what electricity is to intimately work with it. I only need to know what it does.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

If there is a Real God  we can almost be certain It is nothing like the priesst, preachers, imams, rabbis,  gurus,  prophets and fanatics  say It is. 

What we get from Organized Religion is  disinformation  fed to us,  to mislead us,  swindle us,  or get us to lay down our sovereign right to make decisions for ourselves.  

[Brant Gaede]

7 hours ago, moralist said:

As I experience God... He is infinitely subtle and abstract. I can know his effects by observing the world and by the direct effect of physical and moral law upon my life.

There is also something else... but that is completely up to God and has absolutely nothing to do with anything that anyone could ever possibly do. I can say that it does involve loving what's morally right, but even that is not within anyone's power as it is not even our love.

As I experience nature living here on the border of its raw edge, it's just another set of physical effects that don't rise to the level of an essence. This is because nature can only obey a higher governing order of physical laws without originating or designing them. So it points beyond itself to Something Else.

I don't consider this to be an point important, however... as acknowledging the effect of physical and moral law is sufficient for a need-to-know basis of living.

I don't need to know what electricity is to intimately work with it. I only need to know what it does.

Greg

You are merely treating "God" as a metaphysical axiom. Period. He does not travel for all your blather. In Objectivism, axioms cover metaphysics and epistemology making rationality possible. Thus when you talk of "God" you are irrational for you're stuck on him, like a tar baby. When you leave Him out of the conversation you have many interesting and true things to say, but  then you are as much a secularist as any of us albeit with less gravitas. Since you are actually a pantheist, your use of "God" is merely a hijacking off the monotheistic religions making you a parasite on both faith and reason. That's why your tea is so weak.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

7 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

If there is a Real God  we can almost be certain It is nothing like the priesst, preachers, imams, rabbis,  gurus,  prophets and fanatics  say It is. 

What we get from Organized Religion is  disinformation  fed to us,  to mislead us,  swindle us,  or get us to lay down our sovereign right to make decisions for ourselves.  

To which moralist would say, that's your government--and you.

--Brant

[moralist]

8 hours ago, Brant Gaede said:

You are merely treating "God" as a metaphysical axiom.

You got that right, Brant.

I don't believe.

I know.

...and yes, I'm stuck on Him. "The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want..." While a nice little poetic phrase, it's actually a lot more than just that. It's a promise. A rock solid statement of fact. As long as I do what's morally right I'll never want for anything. So far that promise has worked flawlessly for 68 years, and there's no logical reason it won't continue to hold true for the rest of my life and beyond.

Quote

Since you are actually a pantheist

I'm actually not. I experience God through His Creation, but don't equate God as being nature.

A Pantheist would say "reality is God"... while I say "God created reality"... in that He conceived of, designed, created, and set into motion all of the laws governing the operation of physical and moral reality.

 

Greg

[moralist]

15 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said:

If there is a Real God  we can almost be certain It is nothing like the priesst, preachers, imams, rabbis,  gurus,  prophets and fanatics  say It is. 

What we get from Organized Religion is  disinformation  fed to us,  to mislead us,  swindle us,  or get us to lay down our sovereign right to make decisions for ourselves.  

Only swindlers can be swindled, Bob. So if you regard yourself as a victim of being swindled... you have most certainly swindled others. This is because only swindling others can set you up to be a swindled as you rightfully deserve.

 

Greg