Going Galt

[moralist]

First of all, just what constitutes "enough money"?

You'll never know.

Greg

If it is unknowable, then your theory is useless and inane.

Don't concern yourself, Frank

It'will never work for you,

because you don't have

what it takes

to make it work.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Enjoying rights is the exercise of rights and you have rights to exercise depending on your ability. A baby doesn't have a right to fly an airplane but has a right to life so she can grow up and fly an airplane. The moral and philosophical question of where the mere right to life actually starts--before or after birth--is a separate conversation. It's "mere" only in that the new-born baby isn't doing much but his parents are going nutzo to take care of her especially when she starts crying for you know whats.

--Brant

the baby rules the household

[Selene]

It all

depends on what each of us has already chosen.

Greg

Greg:

A serious question...in your way of thinking, generally, how early in life can an individual chose?

I realize there are exceptions, however I am looking for the "general" answer.

A...

In my opinion, people generally choose as a result of becoming self aware of the moral accountability of their actions. For Jews, it's traditionally at the age of 12 (bar or bat mitzvah ). But life changing events can always happen to change that choice.

Every child in America starts out as a liberal with the need to be cared for, the need for indemnification so as to feel safe and secure, and with the feeling of being entitled to getting everything free because someone else pays for it...

...but in America not every child grows to mature into an American. Today, less and less do. This is why the government will never stop growing until it experiences its own life changing event... collapse. But that collapse will not be a cause. It will be only as a consequence of the collapse of the lives of hundreds of millions of children who never grew into adults.

Most all changes of view are from European liberal (child) to Conservative American (adult)... and only the pain of objective reality from getting the clubbing we deserve from the consequences of our actions has the power to make us change our chosen view. But even that is a choice between acknowledging out moral accountability for our actions... or angrily blaming (unjustly accusing) anything external... rich people, big corporations, the Federal Reserve, international bankers, or the government.

Greg

Interesting.

Barring an early life changing event, you feel that the transition point, or choosing point between manhood/womanhood, is generally around puberty?

A...

[Brant Gaede]

First of all, just what constitutes "enough money"?

You'll never know.

Greg

If it is unknowable, then your theory is useless and inane.

Don't concern yourself, Frank

It'will never work for you,

because you don't have

what it takes

to make it work.

Greg

You keep shooting arrows into the side of the barn on the assumption you're hitting Francisco each and every time. It's practically a tautology for you, but it's only a barn he seems to be standing in front of--so big a target to you he seems to completely hide the barn. However, it's a huge barn, Greg, but I think he's only 5'10" based on the average height of today's Americano.

--Brant

[Francisco Ferrer]

That's why Frank so desperately needs to argue... and I don't.

Argue: "to present reasons for or against a thing."

It is true, Morrie. You do not argue because you have no reasons.

[moralist]

It all

depends on what each of us has already chosen.

Greg

Greg:

A serious question...in your way of thinking, generally, how early in life can an individual chose?

I realize there are exceptions, however I am looking for the "general" answer.

A...

In my opinion, people generally choose as a result of becoming self aware of the moral accountability of their actions. For Jews, it's traditionally at the age of 12 (bar or bat mitzvah ). But life changing events can always happen to change that choice.

Every child in America starts out as a liberal with the need to be cared for, the need for indemnification so as to feel safe and secure, and with the feeling of being entitled to getting everything free because someone else pays for it...

...but in America not every child grows to mature into an American. Today, less and less do. This is why the government will never stop growing until it experiences its own life changing event... collapse. But that collapse will not be a cause. It will be only as a consequence of the collapse of the lives of hundreds of millions of children who never grew into adults.

Most all changes of view are from European liberal (child) to Conservative American (adult)... and only the pain of objective reality from getting the clubbing we deserve from the consequences of our actions has the power to make us change our chosen view. But even that is a choice between acknowledging out moral accountability for our actions... or angrily blaming (unjustly accusing) anything external... rich people, big corporations, the Federal Reserve, international bankers, or the government.

Greg

Interesting.

Barring an early life changing event, you feel that the transition point, or choosing point between manhood/womanhood, is generally around puberty?

A...

Yes I do, Adam.

It's also my opinion that all evil acts flow from angry blame, which is the unjust accusation of others, where the perpetrator views themselves as the victim. It's one reason Satan is also referred to as the Accuser... with the tacit inference that the accusations are lies. Evil acts can only be intellectually justified with lies... which are frequently clever cunning complex and convoluted. This is why it's a mistake to confuse intelligence with morality. Some of the most vile wicked subhuman monsters to ever slither on the Earth were as smart as whips.

A person can have a superb intellect and be highly educated... and still be as crooked as a dog's hind leg.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Well, Hitler angrily blamed the Jews and made it a big part of applied Nazi ideology.

But it's evil to angrily complain in turn about Hitler? About the Nazis? What ever happened to the just accusations? Does all angry blame result in evil acts? The assumption that all one need do to evil is not to sanction it and it goes away only lasts until the black van arrives.

There seems to be a huge hole in Greg's cosmology.

--Brant

[moralist]

That's why Frank so desperately needs to argue... and I don't.

Argue: "to present reasons for or against a thing."

It is true, Morrie. You do not argue because you have no reasons.

That's correct, Frank.

None that would ever be of any value to you.

Greg.

[moralist]

Well, Hitler angrily blamed the Jews and made it a big part of applied Nazi ideology.

But it's evil to angrily complain in turn about Hitler?

Someone has to break this to you, Brant.

So I guess it'll be me.

Hitler's dead.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Well, Hitler angrily blamed the Jews and made it a big part of applied Nazi ideology.

But it's evil to angrily complain in turn about Hitler?

Someone has to break this to you, Brant.

So I guess it'll be me.

Hitler's dead.

Greg

Take a deep breath.

Now: abstract.

--Brant

[Selene]

Argue: "to present reasons for or against a thing."

Love the way you cherry pick - Here is the touchy feely way to "argue"...

"1

Play fair. Odds are you know exactly how to push the other person's buttons, but it's important to resist if you want to have a civil argument. Resolve that no matter how upset he or she makes you, you will not say the one thing you know would push the argument over the edge.

2

Respect the other person. Respect what the other person has to say. An argument has to be two-sided; if you fail to hear the other side out, they will return the gesture and not listen to you. Refuting a person's opinion is fine, but refusing to hear it makes a debate pointless.

You should always be respectful when arguing with another person. Remember, that's what they are: another person. Treat them the way that you would want to be treated. Don't immediately dismiss their ideas just because they don't agree with you. Listen to them.

3

Attack ideas, not the person they're attached to. When you argue with someone, you should remember to only attack that person's ideas, not the person themself. That means you shouldn't call the person stupid for thinking what they think, and you shouldn't devolve to attacks on their physical appearance either.

4

Admit when you are wrong. When you make a mistake, admit it. Admit that you misunderstood or were misinformed. Being wrong doesn't make you a lesser person but admitting you're wrong does make you the bigger person.

5

Apologize when appropriate. If you've hurt someone or your argument caused problems, you should apologize. Be the adult in the situation and take responsibility for your actions.

6

Be open to new ideas. The best way to argue positively is to be open to new ideas. You don't want to be wrong in an argument again, do you? Open yourself to the possibility of a better way of thinking or new, fascinating information."

The cartoonish look gets even more pitiful later in the "article."

http://www.wikihow.com/Argue

[Brant Gaede]

Hey! Where's the fun?

[moralist]

Well, Hitler angrily blamed the Jews and made it a big part of applied Nazi ideology.

But it's evil to angrily complain in turn about Hitler?

Someone has to break this to you, Brant.

So I guess it'll be me.

Hitler's dead.

Greg

Take a deep breath.

Now: abstract.

--Brant

I'm literal...

...and so my frame of reference is the present moment and actual direct personal contact. Operating from this vantage point, complaints are no longer impotent after the fact looking backwards, because you have the power to actually do something about them right now.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Well, Hitler angrily blamed the Jews and made it a big part of applied Nazi ideology.

But it's evil to angrily complain in turn about Hitler?

Someone has to break this to you, Brant.

So I guess it'll be me.

Hitler's dead.

Greg

Take a deep breath.

Now: abstract.

--Brant

I'm literal...

...and so my frame of reference is the present moment and actual direct personal contact. Operating from this vantage point, complaints are no longer impotent after the fact looking backwards, because you have the power to actually do something about them right now.

Greg

"Primitive" might be the better word.

--Brant

but not to argue (in a million years I'll be thought of as primitive too--you just got there first)

[Francisco Ferrer]

http://www.wikihow.com/Argue

The first sentence in the link: "Arguments don't have to be hurtful, but they can easily turn that way if you're not careful."

Yes, let's all be careful not to call one another "unproductive failures" especially when we have no evidence for drawing such a conclusion.

[BaalChatzaf]

A serious question...in your way of thinking, generally, how early in life can an individual chose?

I realize there are exceptions, however I am looking for the "general" answer.

A...

My guess: as soon as a child can formulate "I want" in its mind.

[Brant Gaede]

A serious question...in your way of thinking, generally, how early in life can an individual chose?

I realize there are exceptions, however I am looking for the "general" answer.

A...

My guess: as soon as a child can formulate "I want" in its mind.

Free will kicks in when I want becomes I want but choose not to partake or know that I can refuse but give me the food anyway. If you don't know you can choose you can't choose. Now, when one has a want that can be satisfied in more than one way then one chooses the best way one can figure. A baby's wants are merely a waterfall of necessary indulgences. The human baby does not come out of the womb ready to go--an evolutionary impossibility for the species--so its babyhood is merely a womb extension. The mother's interactions with a baby are all out of the context of love which the baby naturally exploits. When adults are in psychotherapy exploring childhood trauma or other such stuff, it's usually mommy this or mommy that and getting over blaming mommy and getting on with living as an autonomous agent. It's hardly ever something to do with daddy. Daddy is just "Dad" to most males or daddy affectionately to most females if anything at all. It's not commonly that daddy fucked me up. Or that daddy didn't love me. Maybe daddy wasn't there but that's usually not a big deal for abreactive work.

--Brant

mommy, the necessary human

daddy, the use-to-be necessary human--now it's food stamps, section 8 housing and free medical care and no taxes--or, everything is backwards or upside down (throw in free college education and a cell phone)--but at least he's still available to make babies, for now as an adjunct to selling and using drugs and if he goes to jail there are other males for the baby making although the jails are full

[moralist]

A serious question...in your way of thinking, generally, how early in life can an individual chose?

I realize there are exceptions, however I am looking for the "general" answer.

A...

My guess: as soon as a child can formulate "I want" in its mind.

Too early. The child hasn't yet formulated "what's right?"

Greg

[moralist]

Well, Hitler angrily blamed the Jews and made it a big part of applied Nazi ideology.

But it's evil to angrily complain in turn about Hitler?

Someone has to break this to you, Brant.

So I guess it'll be me.

Hitler's dead.

Greg

Take a deep breath.

Now: abstract.

--Brant

I'm literal...

...and so my frame of reference is the present moment and actual direct personal contact. Operating from this vantage point, complaints are no longer impotent after the fact looking backwards, because you have the power to actually do something about them right now.

Greg

"Primitive" might be the better word.

--Brant

but not to argue (in a million years I'll be thought of as primitive too--you just got there first)

I'm fine with primitive, Brant.

The immediate literal here and now keeps me focused on what I have control and responsibility instead of becoming fixated on remote virtualities over which I have no control or responsibility.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I throw everything at you I can except what you throw at everybody else an antagonist--except me. You gave that up. (For Lent?)

--Brant

[william.scherk]

When adults are in psychotherapy exploring childhood trauma or other such stuff, it's usually mommy this or mommy that and getting over blaming mommy and getting on with living as an autonomous agent. It's hardly ever something to do with daddy. Daddy is just "Dad" to most males or daddy affectionately to most females if anything at all. It's not commonly that daddy fucked me up. Or that daddy didn't love me. Maybe daddy wasn't there but that's usually not a big deal for abreactive work.

I don't know how you got to this conclusion.

Child sexual abuse, neglect and abandonment are issues that necessarily involve men, even in your sketch. Moreover, abreactive work was the hallmark of discredited techniques during the 'memory wars.' The False Memory Syndrome Foundation long reported the effects of bad therapy -- and they were overwhelmingly felt upon the males, the fathers. I need give only a few examples: Paul Ingram, Mark Pendergrast, Gerald Amirault; I do not mean to suggest that solely males are blamed for sexual and other abuses brought to therapy, nor do I suggest that abuse allegations are by and large untrue. I do hope you can revise your claim, at least in your own mind, upon some further thought and consideration.

There is, sad to say, still a malign industry surrounding childhood trauma -- traumatic memory elicited by therapy -- and professional bodies dedicated to continuing the industry. The tendency to 'recover' heretofore buried memories of abuse continues. The hugely popular 'recover abuse memories' books from the eighties still sell, still are used as workbooks for a goal.

It may be true that your personal experience with therapy, and shared notes with other abreacted clients, leads you to a useful estimate of what that cohort had to complain about in therapy. I won't discount your personal take and your experience. I just want to add caution to your generalization. It is not true that Dad is "hardly ever" the issue in therapy, let alone abreactive therapy (in which a client is assisted to relive past trauma).

If you have some evidence, statistics, surveys or other quantified findings supporting your assertion, I hope to see it presented.

Mommy, the necessary human

daddy, the use-to-be necessary human--now it's food stamps, section 8 housing and free medical care and no taxes--or, everything is backwards or upside down (throw in free college education and a cell phone)--but at least he's still available to make babies, for now as an adjunct to selling and using drugs and if he goes to jail there are other males for the baby making although the jails are full

You could easily have use the term African-American male and dispensed with the trappings. Regardless, the postcript has nothing to do with the first point you made. In the scheme of "daddy fucked me up" please remember the toll of real child sexual abuse, and which gender is the overwhelming perpetrator. How many episodes of Scared Straight have let us see the effect of good daddy, departed daddy, abusive daddy?

Edited May 7, 2015 by william.scherk

[moralist]

I throw everything at you I can except what you throw at everybody else an antagonist--except me. You gave that up. (For Lent?)

--Brant

That's because you're lighthearted

and you don't play the victim card.

That earns my respect.

Greg

[moralist]

mommy, the necessary human

daddy, the use-to-be necessary human--now it's food stamps, section 8 housing and free medical care and no taxes--or, everything is backwards or upside down (throw in free college education and a cell phone)--but at least he's still available to make babies, for now as an adjunct to selling and using drugs and if he goes to jail there are other males for the baby making although the jails are full

One consequence of males who fail to become men is when single females who failed to become women (with liberal government as their husband) plant the seeds of their own hatred of "Dad" in their children.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

William, it's not confined to African-Americsan. They are simply the largest group of victims.

I didn't think of childhood sexual abuse.

Abreactive work in therapy is a complex issue. I just assumed it being done competently and appropriately, for me a Nathaniel Branden specialty out of an altered state of consciousness. A lot depends on the client. Nathaniel's work post-1968 had little in common with any approach to therapy he used pre-1968 by what I've read, he said and what I experienced. I do have significant criticism of how he worked--I think he had too many clients even for his approach--and out of that, but not for now if not for OL. False memories do not seem to come out of--manufactured out of--an altered state of consciousness but what we may call normal consciousness, for in the former it's too hard to be dishonest and in the latter too easy. If you are doing sentence completions one after the other it's hard to lie. There is a problem, however, with lies you told yourself previously that you've come to believe so the abreactive work can turn that up too. And be done with it. It's in the head. Questions of truth or falsity are trivial to that reality. Such therapy does not create the memory. Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily inform actual truth. If the client thinks it's the truth, as opposed to buried then revealed falsity, she might go home and call the cops. Then it's too bad for Dad. The cops might be called. Innocent Dad goes to jail. Justice delayed 20 years, but they finally nailed the bastard.

If the actual horror had happened, however, that's another matter. But justice has nothing to do with psychotherapy. Beware of the psychotherapist bearing witness.

--Brant

edit: speaking quite generally we could posit--I do, you is up to you--that Dad hurt the child by what he did and Mom hurt the child by what she did not do (provide love)--and sometimes the child hurts his or her self by how experiences are processed: a little can make a lot--of trauma carried forward into adulthood

Edited May 8, 2015 by Brant Gaede

[BaalChatzaf]

Too early. The child hasn't yet formulated "what's right?"

Greg

Children are natural born barbarians. Parents have about 15 years to turn the barbarian into a reasonable functional human being.