Brant Gaede Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The U.S. government is led by a "weak feminized male."It sure is, Frank.The U.S. government is an "instrument of perfect moral justice."And you already have proof that the government is an instrument of perfect moral justice......because it's exactly the government you deserve. GregWhat is the government you deserve, Greg?--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Ferrer Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 The U.S. government is led by a "weak feminized male."It sure is, Frank.The U.S. government is an "instrument of perfect moral justice."And you already have proof that the government is an instrument of perfect moral justice......because it's exactly the government you deserve.God punishes the evil-doers and rewards the do-gooders (Obama) through His instrument of perfect justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I'm pretty sure Greg invented the "Merry-Go-Round".Circular reasoning off premises treated like axioms. Argumentum ad axiomiums is a contradiction in terms for the premises aren't axioms and no actual argument is being made by directly referencing them. "Getting the government you deserve" makes no real reference to a government and what it does generally and particularly nor to whom the statement is addressed. Greg shrinks his own personal frame of reference down from national to local government wherein he can rationalize his own behavior away respecting its rules and regulations and taxes. As for the big picture, he might as well say the human race and every particular person by implication--it has to be by implication or the fallacy segues over to reductio ad absurdum--gets the world it deserves. The two premises worked off here are 1) government is consequent to the morality of the ruled and 2) any particular person. In actuality government is consequent to the morality of some of the ruled which is a demonstrable proposition. His two premises are not demonstrable for they cannot accept or deal with any exceptions. Start with a new born baby. He's responsible for Obama? As a child? An adolescent? As an adult reaching his 16th 17th 18th 21st birthday? (If he's a Jew, 13 [that's not going to be a very happy bar mitzvah])?--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 What is the government you deserve, Greg? --BrantThe government I deserve is the one I'm getting right now.The values by which I live my life are what determine my own direct personal experience of getting the government I deserve. The government leaves me alone to enjoy my life my liberty and to pursue my happiness because the life I choose to live is deserving of it.Everyone's individual experience of getting the government they deserve is different because each individual chooses to live by a wide variety of different values.So if you feel that your own personal experience of the government isn't what you deserve......it's your own damned fault for how you chose to live.Until people realize that their problems are self inflicted, they will never deserve to be free of them as long as they are angrily blaming (unjustly accusing) others......and that includes the government. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 You didn't answer the question. At least particularize your generalization. And if it's the government you deserve is that the government that should be? You don't posit moral imperatives, only consequences not specified.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 And if it's the government you deserve is that the government that should be? Sorry, I thought I was clear. I'll try again. The answer to your question is: YES How the government is treating me right here and right now is exactly how I deserve to be treated. The government treats me like an American because I live like one. It leaves me alone because I don't need it to give me things I can't work to earn for myself. I took none of my VA benefits, because I had no need of them. I don't need the government to guarantee my mortgage because I don't have one. I don't need government to insure me because I'm self insured. I don't need government healthcare because I can take care of my own body. I don't need a government job, because I created my own job. I have the freedom to run my business, to work and to earn all the money we need, to experience the adventure of buying raw land and building our own home like modern pioneers. The freedom to enjoy my life with my wife in a beautiful place surrounded by nature. My Mom is 94 so I built her own little house near ours so we could take care of her. Ok, Brant. Do you need any more details? If you do, please ask all the specific questions you need, and I'll be happy to further clarify how the government doesn't interfere with me enjoying my life. There's a moral principle you don't believe exists, and it is this: The government is treating you just as decent as you are. I already fully understand that you don't believe that this is true, because you've already made that abundantly clear. You feel that the government isn't treating you as decent as you feel you deserve to be treated, and I say you only feel that way because you have not fully examined your own life. So there ya go, Brant. There's our two views. They are utterly irreconcilable. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 You don't know what and why I feel. Please turn off your presumption machine.There seems to be no room in your present for a government that shouldn't be--that is, it doesn't exist for you. Therefore, no room in your cosmology for a future government that's a better government. It's all bottom-upism, no top-downism. So when the Swat Team mistakenly hits your neighbor's home on a drug raid gone wrong and kills innocent him, he only got the government he deserved?--Brantno room for the abolitionists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Ferrer Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 It's because the Moralist has lived such a decent life that he has Barack Obama as his president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Troy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 You don't know what and why I feel. Please turn off your presumption machine.Ok. Then you agree with me so there's nothing to argue about......but somehow I don't think so. There seems to be no room in your present for a government that shouldn't be--that is, it doesn't exist for you.YES...but only for me.You and everyone else needs to go figure things out for yourselves. I already told you exactly what I do. I discovered a truth... that the government treats me exactly as decent as I am. So how I'm treated is completely my own personal responsibility and no one else's.You have no idea how liberating this is. I'm free from angrily blaming (unjustly accusing) others (or the government) for the consequences I set into motion by my own actions. My life is truly my own, and I'm free to live it as I see fit. Therefore, no room in your cosmology for a future government that's a better government.YESThat's right, Brant.There's only room for a better me... because the better man I become, the more the government leaves me alone to enjoy my life. It's all bottom-upism, no top-downism.YESThe government I deserve to get is totally up to me. It also is up to you and everyone else, But you don't believe it and I'm totally ok with that, because I only get the consequences of my own actions and not yours or anyone else's.So when the Swat Team mistakenly hits your neighbor's home on a drug raid gone wrong and kills innocent him, he only got the government he deserved?I don't live in a place like that... and I never will.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 You have no neighbors?--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Brant,Here's the little secret nobody gets with Greg. I don't speak for him, but these are my impressions.He doesn't want to be king. He doesn't want to be master of the axiom. He doesn't want to be the owner of causality dictating reality's rules for others.He wants to serve it (meaning his God) and bask in the benefits this brings.It's a perspective thing, but it makes all the difference. (Barring some logical niceties, I believe it is a good perspective, too. But if the word God offends, replace it with reality.)How does that apply to his views on government?Easy. If someday a "black swan" happens in his neighborhood and neighbors get hauled out by jackboots in the middle of the night, he won't complain.He'll move to place where he can get the government he deserves. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Greg, a place like what? You have no neighbors?You cash in on those who made this country--the Founding Fathers--who couldn't have done what they did with your extremely delimited philosophy. George Washington would have stayed home making whiskey. Maybe they all should have, but you keep telling us how wonderful what they did was. If you don't fight for freedom you're only "social ballast." Do you begin to understand how deterministic you are? Not totally. It's your default position when you don't make sense.--BrantI'm free, I'm free, I'm freeI'm me, I'm me, I'm me!Whatever will be, will be, will beWhatever was, was was, was wasI'm free, I'm free, I'm freeYou can be too, you can be too--too tooTOOT! TOOT!TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! TOOT!Just move to Death Valley!The Feds hate to go thereSacramento doesn't know there or grow thereThe winds don't (always) blow there !TOOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 A place like what? You have no neighbors?--BrantAlmost ... ...because I live in an exclusive unincorporated rural area on the border between civilization and nature, there are very few neighbors, and the few are no neighbors like that. It's worth your consideration to choose a place to live where the chances of becoming collateral damage from other people's evil are very low.(oh, I see you added to your comment)If you don't fight for freedom you're only "social ballast." So tell me precisely what you are doing to "fight for freedom" ...and then I'll tell what I'm doing.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So tell me precisely what you are doing to "fight for freedom" ...and then I'll tell what I'm doing.Gregyou are striving for your own freedom. Good for you! And more power to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 A place like what? You have no neighbors?--BrantAlmost ......because I live in an exclusive unincorporated rural area on the border between civilization and nature, there are very few neighbors, and the few are no neighbors like that.It's worth your consideration to choose a place to live where the chances of becoming collateral damage from other people's evil are very low.(oh, I see you added to your comment)If you don't fight for freedom you're only "social ballast."So tell me precisely what you are doing to "fight for freedom" ...and then I'll tell what I'm doing.GregI'm still digging my way out from a personal disaster that has sopped up my life several years now. I've still about a year to go. You might say I'm trying to get to where you are that way. I don't intend to stop there. Not stopping there is what I'm talking about. I used to kill for freedom. That didn't work out too well, but I was quite young.Any suggestions would be helpful. Suggestions above and beyond what you've posted so far. I've championed your value here for quite some time now and I think you've done some Tea Party stuff. But is it all local?--Brantyou'll show me yours if I show you mine--Is that allowed here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 you are striving for your own freedom. Good for you! And more power to you. Thanks, Bob. You caught onto the idea. Only to the extent that people can first free themselves, are they able to help others learn how free themselves. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 I'm still digging my way out from a personal disaster that has sopped up my life several years now. I've still about a year to go.Understood, Brant. It takes time to heal and there are no shortcuts.You might say I'm trying to get to where you are that way. I don't intend to stop there. Not stopping there is what I'm talking about. I used to kill for freedom. That didn't work out too well, but I was quite young.Yeah, there's no stopping in life. Just a continuous journey. And while there is no destination, there is definitely a direction.Any suggestions would be helpful. Suggestions above and beyond what you've posted so far. I've championed your value here for quite some time now and I think you've done some Tea Party stuff. But is it all local?Yes.Besides voting, everything I do is local because that's where I have the most input. What I do is actually not directly political. I make myself indispensably useful to the community in which I live through serving others to make their lives better. Doing this over the years creates the precious treasure of goodwill which is stored in the hearts of my neighbors. This approach makes my job no end of fun because I'm always interacting with people who genuinely like me.--Brantyou'll show me yours if I show you mine--Is that allowed here?It might be a little inappropriate to spill our guts here publicly. However, I think that discussing personal approaches and principles is just fine.I love the movie "The Matrix" because as a morality play, it has far reaching implications to our lives. In it, Neo gradually discovers that the only limitation is himself... and not anyone or anything else.This single principle really resonates with me, because just one idea can totally simplify the cause of every issue I could ever have in my life:If every problem begins with me... every problem can end with me. This approach takes energy robbing attention away from angrily blaming (unjustly accusing) others, and puts it back where it belongs, on discovering productive ways to fix things in myself. I found that whenever I resolved something within myself, the outside world would graciously acquiesce to the discovery. The world around us actually cooperates with what is inside of us.This eventually leads to another discovery:The world is not my enemy.I can live in this world without deriving my emotional reactions from it. Not reacting to the world means not being a slave to it. And not being a slave to the world means responding to something Else...Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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