moralist Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Brant, You started off well. I totally agree that people should deposit minimal value in institutions of which they have no control over. For example I think people who have invested in the gold market in unallocated and even allocated accounts are going to feel a lot of pain once the futures market and bullion banks at last default. And people who deposited a lot of their bitcoins at MtGox may very well feel this pain if MtGox actually is defaulting as I suspect. But then you added in an unrelated and debatable claim: "This means that when push comes to shove your equities might be as ephemeral as the Bitcoin" People who kept bitcoins in their own wallets rather than signing them over to MtGox haven't lost any bitcoins. People who have their bitcoins deposited at 3rd parties haven't lost their bitcoins... this is just one suspected 3rd party. Bitcoin is a computer program and a public ledger. Whether Bitcoin is ephemeral is debatable speculation. Surely it is more ephemeral than gold. More ephemeral than USD or any other fiat (government enforced monopoly money)... debatable speculation. I was generalizing beyond Bitcoins which has been momentum mania hitting a brick wall. Look, if you were going away for a hunfdred years and wanted some wealth available upon your return you might bury gold but you'd unlikely trust the staying power of Bitcoins. That said, the value of both is not objective. While both values are subjective, gold holds a decided edge because it is real, and has a track record of holding value for thousands of years, and even within multiple civilisations. But running parallel to gold is the same kind of something for nothing gambling on its virtual derivatives, which are not much different from bitcoin. There are portions of gold charts which look similar to that bitcoin suckerchart. This is because both can be related to in a similar manner: speculation without production This is a closed zero sum Marxist system where one person can only win (not earn) money if someone else loses money. So wealth can only be transferred but never created. Win/Lose In contrast to that system is the open ended American Capitalist system where wealth is created (earned) through useful production of goods and services. Win/Win Each system appeals to a certain kind of person who lives by the values which are compatible with the one they choose. And by just moral law each person gets exactly what they deserve from the system they choose. The two kinds of people who match these two systems are: 1. Something for Something 2. Something for Nothing One is decent, honorable, and upright... while the other is not. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 If you own securities held by your broker you don't really own them--just a claim. To actually own the security you must take delivery of the stock certificate. The equities in the supposed custody of your broker aren't really held by your broker. The broker only has claims against the clearance house which is the real owner. This means that when push comes to shove your equities might be as ephemeral as the Bitcoin. We can say the same about wealth held only as electronic digits in your bank account called "dollars." Just reasons for owning some hard, physical assets.--BrantAsk Corzine where the money went...Then ask why he is not in prison.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Ask Corzine where the money went... Then ask why he is not in prison. A... Prison is not the only punishment. Corzine's MF Global scam appealed to the something for nothings who got what they deserved. It's commonly referred to as "taking a haircut". Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Ask Corzine where the money went...Then ask why he is not in prison.A...Prison is not the only punishment.Corzine's MF Global scam appealed to the something for nothings who got what they deserved. It's commonly referred to as "taking a haircut".GregSubstitute Madoff for Corzine for a better example. Apples and oranges and Corzine's victims were not "something for nothings," unless I missed something.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Ask Corzine where the money went... Then ask why he is not in prison. A... Prison is not the only punishment. Corzine's MF Global scam appealed to the something for nothings who got what they deserved. It's commonly referred to as "taking a haircut". Greg Substitute Madoff for Corzine for a better example. Apples and oranges and Corzine's victims were not "something for nothings," unless I missed something. --Brant If they got fleeced... they were something for nothings. It is impossible to fleece the something for somethings, because their values preclude the possibility of becoming involved with those who live by values which differ from theirs. It is impossible for any business transaction to take place without matching values. Much of what people call "investing" is simply trying to get something for nothing. Now I have nothing personally against that because I'm not involved and so I live outside the consequences of the actions of others. Instead, I manage my own money the way I see fit... by investing in reality. And I stay away from the virtual something for nothing suckertrap fantasies. This simple approach has served me very well for all of my life... ...because it is antifragile. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 If they got fleeced... they were something for nothings. It is impossible to fleece the something for somethings, because their values preclude the possibility of becoming involved with those who live by values which differ from theirs.It is impossible for any business transaction to take place without matching values.Much of what people call "investing" is simply trying to get something for nothing. Now I have nothing personally against that because I'm not involved and so I live outside the consequences of the actions of others. Instead, I manage my own money the way I see fit... by investing in reality. And I stay away from the virtual something for nothing suckertrap fantasies. This simple approach has served me very well for all of my life......because it is antifragile. GregI'm sorry, but you don't seem to know anything about what Corzine did.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 If they got fleeced... they were something for nothings. It is impossible to fleece the something for somethings, because their values preclude the possibility of becoming involved with those who live by values which differ from theirs. It is impossible for any business transaction to take place without matching values. Much of what people call "investing" is simply trying to get something for nothing. Now I have nothing personally against that because I'm not involved and so I live outside the consequences of the actions of others. Instead, I manage my own money the way I see fit... by investing in reality. And I stay away from the virtual something for nothing suckertrap fantasies. This simple approach has served me very well for all of my life... ...because it is antifragile. Greg I'm sorry, but you don't seem to know anything about what Corzine did. --Brant What I know of Corzine and MF Global is just from Gerald Celente, the economist who was one of the people who had a lot of trouble trying to get his money back. This is the latest news as of 4 days ago... NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Tuesday allowed a lawsuit to move forward that seeks to hold former MF Global Holdings Ltd Chief Executive Officer Jon Corzine and other executives responsible for the brokerage's collapse. Crap like this could just as well be on another planet as far as I'm concerned, because it has absolutely nothing to do with my life. I deal with my own kind just as they deal with theirs, and each gets exactly what they deserve. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 What I know of Corzine and MF Global is just from Gerald Celente, the economist who was one of the people who had a lot of trouble trying to get his money back.This is the latest news as of 4 days ago...NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Tuesday allowed a lawsuit to move forward that seeks to hold former MF Global Holdings Ltd Chief Executive Officer Jon Corzine and other executives responsible for the brokerage's collapse.Crap like this could just as well be on another planet as far as I'm concerned, because it has absolutely nothing to do with my life. I deal with my own kind just as they deal with theirs, and each gets exactly what they deserve.GregOkay. Gerald got what he deserved when he couldn't get his hands on his money?--Brantdentist: one tooth at a time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Ferrer Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Okay. Gerald got what he deserved when he couldn't get his hands on his money?--Brantdentist: one tooth at a timeI'm finally starting to understand all this "got what he deserved" business.Will the Circle Be UnbrokenWill the circle be unbrokenBy and by, Lord, by and byThere's a better home a-waitingIn the sky, Lord, in the skyIt's in the sky that they get what they deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Okay. Gerald got what he deserved when he couldn't get his hands on his money?--Brantdentist: one tooth at a timeI'm finally starting to understand all this "got what he deserved" business.Will the Circle Be UnbrokenWill the circle be unbrokenBy and by, Lord, by and byThere's a better home a-waitingIn the sky, Lord, in the skyIt's in the sky that they get what they deserve.Don't say that to an airplane pilot or passenger. Fundamentally they want to be on the (high) ground for the Second Coming.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 What I know of Corzine and MF Global is just from Gerald Celente, the economist who was one of the people who had a lot of trouble trying to get his money back. This is the latest news as of 4 days ago... NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Tuesday allowed a lawsuit to move forward that seeks to hold former MF Global Holdings Ltd Chief Executive Officer Jon Corzine and other executives responsible for the brokerage's collapse. Crap like this could just as well be on another planet as far as I'm concerned, because it has absolutely nothing to do with my life. I deal with my own kind just as they deal with theirs, and each gets exactly what they deserve. Greg Okay. Gerald got what he deserved when he couldn't get his hands on his money? Yes. Absolutely. He expected to get something for nothing. His MF Global account was virtual gold futures. FOOLS GOLD The futures market is pure virtual gambling. I believe that he did eventually get some of his money returned to him but not what he "won" on his bets. And he got all of the pain he deserved because it was self inflicted. Whenever people violate the moral law by trying to get something for nothing, they open themselves to becoming the person who gets nothing for something so that someone else can get something for nothing. This is because the system is ZERO SUM. One person can only win when someone else loses. Within this closed Marxist system of transferred wealth, predator and prey each deserve the other... and NOTHING IS PRODUCED. There is something so obviously immoral about trying to win from others losing, and yet most people don't even see this... even when they screwed themselves in 2008 and after. And that is what makes them suckers. Gambling on options, futures, bitcoin, debt derivatives and all the other "leveraged" schemes have absolutely nothing to do with American Capitalism which is based upon the moral virtue of wealth creation through productive service to others by honest equitable value for value exchanges. And by never sacrificing what's morally right for money, I never have to worry about money. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 What I know of Corzine and MF Global is just from Gerald Celente, the economist who was one of the people who had a lot of trouble trying to get his money back.This is the latest news as of 4 days ago...NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Tuesday allowed a lawsuit to move forward that seeks to hold former MF Global Holdings Ltd Chief Executive Officer Jon Corzine and other executives responsible for the brokerage's collapse.Crap like this could just as well be on another planet as far as I'm concerned, because it has absolutely nothing to do with my life. I deal with my own kind just as they deal with theirs, and each gets exactly what they deserve.Greg Okay. Gerald got what he deserved when he couldn't get his hands on his money?Yes.Absolutely.He expected to get something for nothing. His MF Global account was virtual gold futures.FOOLS GOLDThe futures market is pure virtual gambling. I believe that he did eventually get some of his money returned to him but not what he "won" on his bets. And he got all of the pain he deserved because it was self inflicted.Whenever people violate the moral law by trying to get something for nothing, they open themselves to becoming the person who gets nothing for something so that someone else can get something for nothing. This is because the system is ZERO SUM. One person can only win when someone else loses. Within this closed Marxist system of transferred wealth, predator and prey each deserve the other... and NOTHING IS PRODUCED.There is something so obviously immoral about trying to win from others losing, and yet most people don't even see this. That is what makes them potential suckers. Options, futures, derivatives, bitcoin, and all the other "fool's methods" of virtual gambling have absolutely nothing to do with American Capitalism which is based upon the moral virtue of wealth creation through productive service to others by honest equitable value for value exchanges. And by never sacrificing what's morally right for money I never have to worry about money. GregI have to give you credit for ramping up your coherence, but Gerald always took delivery of his gold.If I buy a stock through a broker the time between that and taking delivery of the certificate is also "virtual."If you have any asset in electronic storage of any sort you are also "virtual." Even a physical stock certificate is virtual in that it's a representation of an electronic record of the company kept by the comapny itself or its designated agent. It's simply safer to do it that way than to retain it through your brokerage. If the brokerage goes belly up the company won't know you from Adam.Bernie Madoff offered too good returns to people who should have known better or did know better and willingly went along for the ride. That's where and on whom your criticism properly sits. If G.C. was foolish he wasn't knowingly taking part in a fraud or expecting special returns for owning paper gold. He only wanted the gold itself, never mind the goodness or badness of his reason(s). None of our business for that good or bad is subsidiary to moral neutral.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 What I know of Corzine and MF Global is just from Gerald Celente, the economist who was one of the people who had a lot of trouble trying to get his money back. This is the latest news as of 4 days ago... NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Tuesday allowed a lawsuit to move forward that seeks to hold former MF Global Holdings Ltd Chief Executive Officer Jon Corzine and other executives responsible for the brokerage's collapse. Crap like this could just as well be on another planet as far as I'm concerned, because it has absolutely nothing to do with my life. I deal with my own kind just as they deal with theirs, and each gets exactly what they deserve. Greg Okay. Gerald got what he deserved when he couldn't get his hands on his money?Yes. Absolutely. He expected to get something for nothing. His MF Global account was virtual gold futures. FOOLS GOLD The futures market is pure virtual gambling. I believe that he did eventually get some of his money returned to him but not what he "won" on his bets. And he got all of the pain he deserved because it was self inflicted. Whenever people violate the moral law by trying to get something for nothing, they open themselves to becoming the person who gets nothing for something so that someone else can get something for nothing. This is because the system is ZERO SUM. One person can only win when someone else loses. Within this closed Marxist system of transferred wealth, predator and prey each deserve the other... and NOTHING IS PRODUCED. There is something so obviously immoral about trying to win from others losing, and yet most people don't even see this. That is what makes them potential suckers. Options, futures, derivatives, bitcoin, and all the other "fool's methods" of virtual gambling have absolutely nothing to do with American Capitalism which is based upon the moral virtue of wealth creation through productive service to others by honest equitable value for value exchanges. And by never sacrificing what's morally right for money I never have to worry about money. Greg I have to give you credit for ramping up your coherence, but Gerald always took delivery of his gold.Not always... he sure didn't when he lost his money. When you play the Marxist zero sum game where others are getting f**ked... ...you are eventually going to get f**ked. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 This has gone far enough. Too much digression. Anyone with a brain can figure us out from our posts so far.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 This has gone far enough. Too much digression. Anyone with a brain can figure us out from our posts so far. --Brant Brant, you just have to read "Black Swan" by Nassim Taleb. The guy is a brilliant revolutionary outside the box thinker. It's a positively fascinating study in great detail of how people get blindsided by the inconceivable... the black swan event. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 dup deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Brant, you just have to read "Black Swan" by Nassim Taleb. The guy is a brilliant revolutionary outside the box thinker. It's a positively fascinating study in great detail of how people get blindsided by the inconceivable... the black swan event.GregDoes he tell us how to avoid that damn bird? (I've read of the book but haven't read it yet.)--Brantalready happened to me"and he took her for a swanalas and alack it was she, his Polly Von."I deserved it but deserved had nothing to do with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules Troy Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Ya he expected to buy the physical gold. That is something for something. He did not get what he deserved. Kind of mean of you to think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Brant, you just have to read "Black Swan" by Nassim Taleb. The guy is a brilliant revolutionary outside the box thinker. It's a positively fascinating study in great detail of how people get blindsided by the inconceivable... the black swan event. Greg Does he tell us how to avoid that damn bird? (I've read of the book but haven't read it yet.) --Brant I haven't gotten there yet. It's 400 pages and I've only just started. But he does tell bird stories. Mikee recommended him, so I looked at some youtube videos and immediately bought all of his books. Right now I'm reading the lesson of the thousand and one days of the turkey. For a thousand days a turkey is fed every day and each day it is fed it feels more and more secure that it will be fed tomorrow... until the thousand and one day when it ~feels~ the most safe and secure from being fed daily for so long... ...it gets slaughtered. "The turkey problem can be generalized to any situation where the same hand that feeds you can be the one that wrings your neck." --Nassim Taleb My take on the turkey problem is karmic in that if you freely choose to play a game where your winnings can only come by others getting slaughtered... you too will take your well deserved turn at being slaughtered for someone else's winnings. So my approach is to stay the hell away from zero sum Marxist something for nothing predator/prey games. Instead, my wealth comes from serving others who share my values by helping them to create wealth. In this system there is no predator and no prey, but two peers ethically conducting business for the personal financial benefit of both. And where both parties prosper, there is no zero sum, because the possibilities for creating wealth are endless and only limited by your time energy and abilities. A benefit of refusing to become a predator who can only win when someone else loses is that it also makes me inedible as prey. It's like that old saying: "You can't cheat an honest man." And you can't. Because an honest man does not share the same something for nothing values as a cheat, and without a match of values, it is impossible for a business transaction to take place. already happened to me So what did you learn from your experience? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Ya he expected to buy the physical gold. People who buy physical gold simply buy from a physical gold merchant. And they receive exactly the agreed current market value for which they pay their money. That is something for something. No it isn't. Futures and options are highly leveraged (debt) gambling bets on a future price where nothing is actually produced, and where you can only win when others lose because your money comes from the losers. He did not get what he deserved. Kind of mean of you to think so. Yes, he did. And I'm not being mean. I thoroughly enjoy watching Gerald Celente's Russian Times and Infowars videos because he expresses himself in a engaging manner, and on many financial topics he has a lot of common sense, while on others he's flat out wrong. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 already happened to meSo what did you learn from your experience?GregNothing is guaranteed. Expect the unexpected. Reality is much stronger than one's imaginings. Third parties can be the worst parties. Avoid them if you can.--Brantnot an all inclusive list, just the easy stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 already happened to me So what did you learn from your experience? Greg Nothing is guaranteed. Expect the unexpected. Reality is much stronger than one's imaginings. Third parties can be the worst parties. Avoid them if you can. --Brant not an all inclusive list, just the easy stuff I'm with you on third parties! I refuse to work as a sub in the third party contractor system. Instead, I deal solely with principles and avoid the headaches. Whenever my imaginings depart from reality it's not long before I'm reminded of the disparity in no uncertain terms. It's a beneficial learning process because the more I focus on refining my own life, the quality of my business dealings automatically improves right along with it. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Just an update on the "new economy"... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/25/us-mtgox-website-idUSBREA1O07920140225 BITCOIN EXCHANGE MT.GOX GOES DARK IN BLOW TO VIRTUAL CURRENCY (Reuters) - Mt. Gox, once the world's biggest bitcoin exchange, went dark on Tuesday, with its website down, its Tokyo office empty, and a cryptic comment from its chief executive that the business was at "a turning point." The only activity at the company's Tokyo office was outside, where a handful of protesters said they had lost money investing in the virtual currency. The digital marketplace operator, which began as a venue for trading cards, had surged to the top of the bitcoin world, but critics - from rival exchanges to burned investors - said Mt. Gox had long been lax over its security. It was not clear what has become of the exchange, which this month halted withdrawals indefinitely after detecting "unusual activity." When asked whether Mt. Gox was dead, its CEO, Mark Karpeles, said in an email: "We should have an official announcement ready soon-ish. We are currently at a turning point for the business. I can't tell much more for now as this also involves other parties." A document circulating on the Internet, and purporting to be a crisis plan for the exchange, said more than 744,000 bitcoins were "missing due to malleability-related theft", and noted Mt. Gox had $174 million in liabilities against $32.75 million in assets. It was not possible to verify the document or the exchange's financial situation... (snip) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 lolsame repor/memedifferent thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 lol same repor/meme different thread Sorry, Adam... there's another bitcoin thread going on? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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