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Posted

You just have to love how Salon.com spins, slices and dices an issue...

Zimmerman trades lawyers for Hannity

George Zimmerman's camera-loving attorneys say they can't reach him, but he's talking to the Fox host

By Joan Walsh

zimmerman_lawyers-460x307.jpg

George Zimmerman's attorneys Hal Uhrig, left, and Craig Sonner speak during a news conference on Tuesday. (Credit: AP/Tamara Lush)

George Zimmerman’s attorneys Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig shook up the Trayvon Martin case Tuesday afternoon by announcing they had lost contact with their infamous client and were no longer representing him in connection with his shooting the unarmed 17-year-old Feb. 26. With the news that Zimmerman traded talking to his attorneys for talking to Fox’s Sean Hannity, this story went full-tilt culture war crazy.

In addition to revealing that Zimmerman has spoken with Hannity – the Fox host refuses to divulge what they discussed – the pair said they were “concerned for his emotional and physical safety” and suggested he might be suffering post-traumatic stress disorder from watching too much television coverage of the case. They wouldn’t disclose Zimmerman’s whereabouts, with Uhrig saying “you can stop looking in Florida, look much further away than that,” but “he’s in the United States.”

The two attorneys made a strange case even stranger. The official basis for their withdrawing from the case seemed to be the news that Zimmerman had contacted special prosecutor Angela Corey and offered to come in, and told her he wasn’t represented by counsel, calling Sonner and Uhrig “special advisors.” (Corey said she couldn’t speak to him without counsel.) But their move came the same day Zimmerman revealed a bizarre, flag-bedecked Web site raising money for his defense that looks like it was designed by the folks at Fox Nation, which the lawyers said they hadn’t been told about.

So an armed man who shot an unarmed teenager and who may be emotionally unstable has stopped talking to his attorneys, but will communicate with a conservative talk show host? Could this case get any weirder?

His attorneys’ nutty press conference doesn’t make Zimmerman any more guilty. In fact, you don’t have to believe Zimmerman’s side of the story to find his lawyers’ public withdrawal from the case ethically shady. They could have disclosed the situation to the prosecutor, or even released a statement. They didn’t have to hold a rambling, self-aggrandizing carnival of a press conference in which they made their ex-client sound unhinged.

But I’m glad they did. The Hannity story may be their oddest disclosure — particularly their claim that Zimmerman told the Fox host details he didn’t tell them. It’s not entirely surprising: Hannity has been a reliable spokesman for the shooter’s claim of self-defense and boasted an “exclusive” interview with father Robert Zimmerman last week. But it ratchets up the culture-war aspect of the story.

Zimmerman is apparently seeking comfort and protection not in the legal system, but in the inner chambers of the right-wing resentment machine known as Fox News. Also Tuesday, Rush Limbaugh declared that “the Trayvon Martin situation caused happiness somewhere in the civil rights community.” The only people happy about this tragedy are right-wingers pushing it to advance their narrative of black criminals menacing innocent whites (or white Latinos, in the case of Zimmerman).

This case just keeps getting uglier. Nothing that happened Tuesday means Zimmerman is guilty of a crime in the Martin case, but it makes the Sanford Police Department’s decision to release him, armed, without drug testing or psychiatric observation, seem even more irresponsible.

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Posted

2nd degree murder charges. Zimmerman is screwed, this will be a reverse OJ Simpson case. He'll probably be killed behind bars. I smell a DA with ambition.

Posted (edited)

I am still waiting for commentary here that does not prejudge the entire matter.

I expect that the many little judges on this list have reached verdicts in their hearts. I cannot find a note here that has the least interest in shutting the fuck up until the case goes to law. And now, of course, now that Zimmerman has been brought to law, charged with unlawful killing, the judges have decided that justice is suspect.

The ICK factor writ large. The disempathy and knee-jerk attachment to Fox verities. The seeming need to make this a make-or-break case that will illustrate the awfulness of folks who are concerned about the death of an unarmed youth. The rampant sleazy prejudice and mocking of a grieving family's concerns. Does anyone grandstanding and huffing and puffing worry that they may sound just like any other lowlife fucking racist whiteburger peckerhead?

The ICK factor of this forum. Seriously. That kind of coded shit makes me sick to my stomach. I accuse no one of straight-up racial prejudice, but I smell something foul in the reactions of folks whose opinions I otherwise respect.

Of course, if we wait for the black Objectivists here on OL to say what is in their hearts ... they may not be willing to speak up at the moment while the White Guys tell us what to think ...

Edited by william.scherk
Posted

Folks:

This will be an extremely interesting process.

Zimmerman has been charged with 2nd degree murder:

=====================================================

Definition of Second Degree Murder

The crime of Second Degree Murder occurs when a person commits either:

Murder with a Depraved Mind

Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

The primary distinction between Premeditated First Degree Murder and Second Degree Murder with a Depraved Mind is that First Degree Murder requires a specific and premeditated intent to kill.

Penalties for Second Degree Murder

The crime of Second Degree Murder is classified as a First Degree Felony and is assigned a Level 10 offense severity ranking under Florida's Criminal Punishment Code.

If convicted of Second Degree Murder, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 16¾ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:

  • Up to Life in prison.
  • Up to Life on probation.
  • Up to $10,000 in fines.

==========================================

Defenses to Second Degree Murder

In addition to the pretrial defenses and trial defenses that can be raised in any criminal case, specific defenses to the crime of Second Degree Murder are:

Excusable Homicide

The killing of a human being is excusable, and therefore lawful, under any one of the following three circumstances:

  • When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent, or
  • When the killing occurs by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or
  • When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune resulting from a sudden combat, if a dangerous weapon is not used and the killing is not done in a cruel or unusual manner.

Justifiable Homicide

The killing of a human being is justifiable homicide and lawful if done while resisting an attempt by someone to kill you or to commit a felony against you.

Self Defense

Also known as the justified use of deadly force, self defense is a defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder. Please view the Florida Self Defense section for more information.

==================================================

This is the coin flip stage of this game...Prosecutor won the toss and gets run their plays first.

Adam

Posted

From this morning's ABA e-mail:

Criminal Justice

Second-Degree Murder Charge in Trayvon Martin Killing Poses Hurdles for Prosecutors

Posted Apr 12, 2012 7:58 AM CDT

By Debra Cassens Weiss

Prosecutors may have a difficult road ahead in their second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer accused of following and shooting 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Legal observers told CBS/AP and the New York Times that, based on the evidence made public so far, they are surprised by the charge. Second-degree murder in Florida requires proof that a defendant demonstrated “a depraved mind without regard for human life.”

The expectation was that special prosecutor Angela Corey would charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, which applies to situations in which a defendant sincerely but unreasonably believes he needed to kill to defend himself.

Prosecutors face steep hurdles,” the CBS/AP story says. “They will have to prove Zimmerman intentionally went after Martin instead of shooting him in self-defense, refute arguments that a Florida law empowered him to use deadly force and get past a judge's ruling at a pretrial hearing.”

Zimmerman’s new lawyer, Mark O'Mara, plans to argue his client is protected from prosecution by Florida’s stand your ground law. Zimmerman has said Martin punched him, knocked him down, and banged his head on the sidewalk.

Prosecutors or the defense could ask a judge to allow jurors to consider the lesser offense of manslaughter. The tougher charge could also be a negotiating tool in plea negotiations, observers said.

===================================

I think that a pivotal part of allaying the "depraved state of mind" element of the 2ndd Degree Murder charge will involve the following factors:

1) he was on the phone with 911;

2) he, upon information and belief, was a "legitimate" neighborhood watch volunteer, which should mean that he had a reasonable public purpose for being where he was that night; and

3) he, according to the "unofficial" time line and the map above, did not stray off a tight line from his car to follow anyone.

=========================

Now, the prosecutor may:

1) have witnesses we are not aware of;

2) a statement by Zimmerman that conflicts with a later statement; and

3) some other audio, or visual evidence;

However, that will have to be disclosed relatively soon pursuant to the rules.

===================================

Another hurdle, which would be created, if, Zimmerman's counsel asserts, under the Florida "Stand your ground" stature, the self defense, "defense,"

would be a hearing before a Judge to determine whether to grant Zimmerman complete immunity, both criminally and civilly and basically toss the case.

This would be "politically" problematical for both the State Attorney General's Office and the Governor's Office.

Going to, sadly, be a fascinating real life drama.

Finally, the excuse for a President currently occupying the White House has presented absolutely no leadership on this issue. He has been a racist from the bully pulpit and has endangered the health and safety of every American citizen.

Remember 1968...remember the post OJ disaster and the Rodney King debacle...

Adam

Posted

William,

You sound like you did not read my posts, since your broad brush seems to include me.

So much passion...

Hmmmm...

I agree with you on waiting for the evidence and so forth before judging--and your frustration with those who prejudge in favor of Zimmerman.

But what about those who prejudge in favor of Martin? From the tenor of your comments, you seem to be fine with the good and honorable community organizer folks who turned this thing into a media circus about racism.

Not even a tsk tsk tsk for them?

I think it's ugly to use the death of a person for racial demagoguery.

But since that seems to be the game, I look forward to seeing the racial blow-up over the following story:

Daniel Adkins' killer claims self-defense: Unarmed man shot, killed outside Arizona Taco Bell

April 4, 2012

Chicago News Report

This has been around for several days now, but where is the media? And where are Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the New Black Panther Party to post another bounty and so on?

Basically the story goes like this. A Hispanic man (Daniel Adkins) was walking his dog in front of a Taco Bell in Laveen, Arizona on April 3. Another man (a black man whose name has apparently not been released) was pulling out and their paths crossed. They got into a heated exchange of words and there are conflicting reports on what Adkins did. It seems like he hit the car with his fist or a pipe or something. The man then shot him dead.

It turns out that the police could find no pipe, stick or anything else (according to reports up to now). It also turns out that Daniel Adkins is mentally retarded. And it further turns out that the shooter was not arrested. He claims self-defense.

Damn, that seems vaguely familiar...

So where are all the fine folks to steer up a racist tussle? As far as I can tell, the shooter is still walking around free and the family of Adkins is devastated. There are newspapers to sell and agendas to push, man. What a story!

Oh...

Maybe this particular story does not fit the correct narrative?

After all, who cares about a retard?

Do you, at least, care?

(I grant you, that's not as much fun as spitting venom at some collective "them" or other...)

Michael

Posted

Basically the story goes like this. A Hispanic man (Daniel Adkins) was walking his dog in front of a Taco Bell in Laveen, Arizona on April 3. Another man (a black man whose name has apparently not been released) was pulling out and their paths crossed.

Michael:

Come on, you know the drill!

Clearly Daniel Atkins was not a "white" Hispanic man like Zimmerman!

That makes all the difference in the "propaganda" piece for the race hustler crowds.

Adam

Posted
Clearly Daniel Atkins was not a "white" Hispanic man like Zimmerman!

Adam,

Actually, the report I linked to above said he was. Look here:

On Tuesday, April 3, 2012, around 7:30 p.m., 29-year-old Daniel Adkins, who appears to be a white male Hispanic, was killed outside a Laveen, Arizona, Taco Bell at 7233 South 51st Avenue, near Baseline Road, said Phoenix police.

Authorities said the shooter, a 22-year-old black man, was pulling out of the Taco Bell drive thru when he crossed paths with Adkins, who was walking his dog on the sidewalk.

But maybe not. Here is a Fox-Phoenix report.

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Oh, damn... I forgot. Fox is supposed to be too full of bigotry to present news like that...

Hell, the guy doesn't look all that white.

I wonder why they presented it?

Could it be that the people saying Fox is full of bigotry are suffering from their own form of bias?

Heh.

Anyway, Google this guy's name--"Daniel Atkins." You'll find a story here and there, but you won't find any interest from the vicious clowns who used Trayvon Martin's death to stage their racist publicity stunts.

Michael

Posted

Michael:

That will teach me to open the link and read the story!

So, "white" Hispanic is the "new normal."

I am eternally grateful to have been raised by parents who would not tolerate the intellectually ignorant position of judging a person by their color, ethnicity or other "categorical" descriptive criteria.

Adam

Posted

Libertarian attorney Marc Victor discusses the Trayvon Martin case. I couldn't get the embed code to work, so you will neeed to use this link:

http://www.attorneyf...yvon-martin.htm

Ghs

George,

From some reason--and I don't know why (only the Gods of the Internet out in Cyber Dimension know for sure)--I did, so here it is.

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Here's also an opinion by Alan Dershowitz on the affidavit of probable cause.

<iframe src="http://videos.mediaite.com/embed/player/?content=291DBT1CS8XDS8NW&content_type=content_item&layout=&playlist_cid=&media_type=video&widget_type_cid=svp&read_more=1" width="420" height="421" frameborder="0" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" scrolling="no" allowtransparency="true"></iframe>

Interestingly enough, I found the same kind of reasoning in both--that the media portrayal of the elements involved will have nothing to do with the legality that will be judged (traditional self-defense)--to be very similar. And Dershowitz insinuates that the prosecutor will get her butt handed to her legally on a silver platter because she is mixing the two. But she will win in the public popularity game.

He also believes there is plea bargaining in the works and insinuates that is why she overcharged with such a flimsy affidavit. It won't play in court but it sure plays well in the news.

This implies that State Attorney Angela Corey is just another media vulture eating on Trayvon Martin's corpse.

I'll wait to see how this plays out before coming to a real conclusion, but at the present, that sure sounds right to me.

Michael

Posted

George,

From some reason--and I don't know why (only the Gods of the Internet out in Cyber Dimension know for sure)--I did, so here it is.

I tried the embed code several times. The video showed up on the "preview post," but not on the actual post. In fact, nothing appeared on the final post, not even the code. All I got was a large blank space.

Ghs

Posted

George,

Clear your cookies. That might be the problem.

Incidentally, when I clear my browser, I not only do the cookies, I do the browsing history, "remembered" passwords, cache and everything the settings allow me to.

Every item on that list is a vulnerability for creepy-crawlies from elsewhere to get in. And sometimes that stuff collides with itself.

The only real inconvenience is having to use a separate password manager (I use Lastpass and it's free, but the paid Roboform is excellent). So that's not much of an inconvenience at all. The other is sometimes it takes a little longer for a site to load because the cache is gone and the material normally stored in the cache needs to be downloaded again. But I have not found that to be much of an issue either.

It's a minor pain, but it pays to keep a clean house online if you don't like glitches or unwanted guests.

Michael

Posted

I am still waiting for commentary here that does not prejudge the entire matter.

I expect that the many little judges on this list have reached verdicts in their hearts. I cannot find a note here that has the least interest in shutting the fuck up until the case goes to law. And now, of course, now that Zimmerman has been brought to law, charged with unlawful killing, the judges have decided that justice is suspect.

WSS,

Have you sent out a comparable plea to Al Sharpton, Malik Zulu Shabazz, or to still-unnamed producers, care of NBC and its Miami affiliate?

Robert Campbell

Posted
George, Clear your cookies. That might be the problem.

I did this a few days ago, and I do it around once a week.

I think the problem was just an odd glitch.

Ghs

Posted

I am still waiting for commentary here that does not prejudge the entire matter.

I expect that the many little judges on this list have reached verdicts in their hearts. I cannot find a note here that has the least interest in shutting the fuck up until the case goes to law. And now, of course, now that Zimmerman has been brought to law, charged with unlawful killing, the judges have decided that justice is suspect.

The ICK factor writ large. The disempathy and knee-jerk attachment to Fox verities. The seeming need to make this a make-or-break case that will illustrate the awfulness of folks who are concerned about the death of an unarmed youth. The rampant sleazy prejudice and mocking of a grieving family's concerns. Does anyone grandstanding and huffing and puffing worry that they may sound just like any other lowlife fucking racist whiteburger peckerhead?

This is a bit harsh, don't you think? Talking heads on the left have generated a lynch-mob mentality, going so far as to describe Zimmerman as a "white" hispanic, since he has one white parent. By that standard, Obama should be described as a "white" black man, since his mother was white.

There is no reason why race should have entered into discussions of this situation at all, but OL members are not the one who did it. We don't have enough information to know what happened, but this hasn't stopped the "race hustlers" (to use Sowell's term) from exploiting it.

Btw, I watch a lot of news, including MSNBC and Fox News, and I can assure you that Fox has been more objective than other networks.

Ghs

Posted (edited)

I am still waiting for commentary here that does not prejudge the entire matter.

I expect that the many little judges on this list have reached verdicts in their hearts. I cannot find a note here that has the least interest in shutting the fuck up until the case goes to law. And now, of course, now that Zimmerman has been brought to law, charged with unlawful killing, the judges have decided that justice is suspect.

The ICK factor writ large. The disempathy and knee-jerk attachment to Fox verities. The seeming need to make this a make-or-break case that will illustrate the awfulness of folks who are concerned about the death of an unarmed youth. The rampant sleazy prejudice and mocking of a grieving family's concerns. Does anyone grandstanding and huffing and puffing worry that they may sound just like any other lowlife fucking racist whiteburger peckerhead?

This is a bit harsh, don't you think? Talking heads on the left have generated a lynch-mob mentality, going so far as to describe Zimmerman as a "white" hispanic, since he has one white parent. By that standard, Obama should be described as a "white" black man, since his mother was white.

There is no reason why race should have entered into discussions of this situation at all, but OL members are not the one who did it. We don't have enough information to know what happened, but this hasn't stopped the "race hustlers" (to use Sowell's term) from exploiting it.

Btw, I watch a lot of news, including MSNBC and Fox News, and I can assure you that Fox has been more objective than other networks.

Of course it is harsh. It revolts me that folks have no interest in justice, and operate in the Red Zone of prejudice.

Look back through this thread. Find me the post that lays out a concern for justice without reference to race.

As for Fox being the voice of truth in this matter. Are you fucking kidding me? The channel that has a hard time choosing between blonde and blondes and blondes -- who chooses its female cough journalists by bust size - and who apparently cannot find a commentator or expert who is not a losing candidate for national office for the Republicans.

The more that Objectivish people clap along with the nutters and haters of the right-wing Christian fuckheads, slipping into bed with retrograde Xtian zombies like Santorum, or deluded old fuckheads like Gingrich, or fucking idiots like Perry or demented crap-dealers like Bachman, or magic-underwear plutocrats like Romney ... and the more they show the empathy of a cow patty, the more the Ick drips. Fox is a reach-around circle-jerk, the mirror image of the sniggering bias of Russia Today's channel.

My remarks reflect my personal revulsion for the grotesqueries found in this thread (of course, I have not noted the 2 or 3 reasonable comments, or the mutterings of that daft socialist windbag Darth Lynam who wants to grab your guns).

As for this: There is no reason why race should have entered into discussions of this situation at all

With respect, George -- his makes absolutely zero sense to me.

I have said my piece. The advanced race-jurists and windbags here can litigate this until they sober up or get out of Detox.

Maybe the case will have come to verdict by the time of our Election Party at OL.

I will keep my mouth shut until that time.

[
lgxv.jpeg
George -- you are a rare blue diamond.
My apologies if any of this reads as personally-directed. I did not mean to do that, but will let it stand. I do not often go nuts myself, but when I do, it is because of a deep anger. I cannot hide that. Every day this year I have dealt with gruesome violent death and oppression in my work with Syrian activists, media outlets, etcetera. The horrifying bias of media in the Middle East (and on the Middle East) sickens me each day, and I am afraid I let my absolute bias and anger bleed through. I respect your opinions, but I differ mightily on a few items.
-- back to my cave.]

Edited by william.scherk
Posted
I am still waiting for commentary here that does not prejudge the entire matter. I expect that the many little judges on this list have reached verdicts in their hearts. I cannot find a note here that has the least interest in shutting the fuck up until the case goes to law. And now, of course, now that Zimmerman has been brought to law, charged with unlawful killing, the judges have decided that justice is suspect. The ICK factor writ large. The disempathy and knee-jerk attachment to Fox verities. The seeming need to make this a make-or-break case that will illustrate the awfulness of folks who are concerned about the death of an unarmed youth. The rampant sleazy prejudice and mocking of a grieving family's concerns. Does anyone grandstanding and huffing and puffing worry that they may sound just like any other lowlife fucking racist whiteburger peckerhead?
This is a bit harsh, don't you think? Talking heads on the left have generated a lynch-mob mentality, going so far as to describe Zimmerman as a "white" hispanic, since he has one white parent. By that standard, Obama should be described as a "white" black man, since his mother was white. There is no reason why race should have entered into discussions of this situation at all, but OL members are not the one who did it. We don't have enough information to know what happened, but this hasn't stopped the "race hustlers" (to use Sowell's term) from exploiting it. Btw, I watch a lot of news, including MSNBC and Fox News, and I can assure you that Fox has been more objective than other networks.
Of course it is harsh. It revolts me that folks have no interest in justice, and operate in the Red Zone of prejudice. Look back through this thread. Find me the post that lays out a concern for justice without reference to race. As for Fox being the voice of truth in this matter. Are you fucking kidding me? The channel that has a hard time choosing between blonde and blondes and blondes -- who chooses its female cough journalists by bust size - and who apparently cannot find a commentator or expert who is not a losing candidate for national office for the Republicans....

I haven't read every post on this thread, so if you have particular posts in mind you will need to point them out to me, since none of the posts I have read struck me as outrageous.

I wasn't giving Fox News a blanket endorsement. I merely said that it has been more objective than other networks (especially MSNBC) on this issue. And this is true.

I've followed the Trayvon Martin case fairly closely, and I have seen no evidence to suggest that race played a role in it. If you know of evidence to the contrary, please enlighten me. From what I've seen, the race issue was trumped up by lefties for political reasons, including an attack on "stand your ground" laws. I've been watching "Hardball" as I write this, and it included a segment on the need for greater gun control. The same is true of Al Sharpton's program earlier today.

Ghs

Posted
Every day this year I have dealt with gruesome violent death and oppression in my work with Syrian activists, media outlets, etcetera. The horrifying bias of media in the Middle East (and on the Middle East) sickens me each day, and I am afraid I let my absolute bias and anger bleed through.

William,

The Sufis say you become what you gaze upon.

The more I live, the more I see the wisdom in that.

I wish you well.

Michael

Posted

Of course it is harsh. It revolts me that folks have no interest in justice, and operate in the Red Zone of prejudice.

My only contribution here has been a personal story about how/why I was instructed by police to tell them the race of a suspect first; to not be squeamish about doing that. Looking at my post again I felt concern that it looks racist at first blush, but on rereading it yet another time the impression recedes. Anyway, I’m not making any a priori assumptions about the Zimmerman case itself. The fact that charges are being pressed following some not so subtle pressure from the White House, this certainly appears to be a sample of the Anatidae Family (reference the walk and the quack). Time will tell.

Posted

"From what I've seen, the race issue was trumped up by lefties for political reasons, including an attack on "stand your ground" laws. I've been watching "Hardball" as I write this, and it included a segment on the need for greater gun control. The same is true of Al Sharpton's program earlier today."-Ghs

The race issue is trumped up by lefties for political reasons, true, The stand your ground laws enable racism ("Of course he would have killed me! He's not the same colour as me! ") just as early gun control laws enabled racism ("don't give him a gun! He's black - the worst kind - a free black!" These grotesque laws exist only because the sponsors want a gun in every pocket and a spare in every house. They should be attacked, and defeated.

Posted
"From what I've seen, the race issue was trumped up by lefties for political reasons, including an attack on "stand your ground" laws. I've been watching "Hardball" as I write this, and it included a segment on the need for greater gun control. The same is true of Al Sharpton's program earlier today."-Ghs The race issue is trumped up by lefties for political reasons, true, The stand your ground laws enable racism ("Of course he would have killed me! He's not the same colour as me! ") just as early gun control laws enabled racism ("don't give him a gun! He's black - the worst kind - a free black!" These grotesque laws exist only because the sponsors want a gun in every pocket and a spare in every house. They should be attacked, and defeated.

The threat has to be real, regardless of whether one is legally required to retreat or not. This has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with the proper standards of self-defense.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that race had anything to do with the Trayvon Martin shooting. Do you know of any?

Ghs

Posted

"From what I've seen, the race issue was trumped up by lefties for political reasons, including an attack on "stand your ground" laws. I've been watching "Hardball" as I write this, and it included a segment on the need for greater gun control. The same is true of Al Sharpton's program earlier today."-Ghs

The race issue is trumped up by lefties for political reasons, true, The stand your ground laws enable racism ("Of course he would have killed me! He's not the same colour as me! ") just as early gun control laws enabled racism ("don't give him a gun! He's black - the worst kind - a free black!" These grotesque laws exist only because the sponsors want a gun in every pocket and a spare in every house. They should be attacked, and defeated.

The right to self defense is meaningless if people don't have the means to defend themselves. These "grotesque laws" as you call them provide the means. Very few people could successfully defend themselves against a 6 foot + angry 17 year old sitting on their chest pounding their head into the pavement.

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