Van Jones unveals his contract for the American Dream

[Selene]

<<<<the kid's video with the ten (10) point program.

The website Rebuilding the American Dream

Scroll down to the bottom for the who's who of marxist groups.

Yep, even the Sierra Club.

Adam

[studiodekadent]

Adam,

No offense intended but you accuse people of "Marxism" almost as indiscriminately as Dennis Hardin accuses others of "Nihilism."

Environmentalism is bad, but it isn't Marxism. The ideologies are both wrong but have quite a few differences and shouldn't be lumped together as if they were the same.

Yes, I know you aren't trying to use the term with a lot of precision, but I'm just pointing it out.

[Selene]

Adam,

No offense intended but you accuse people of "Marxism" almost as indiscriminately as Dennis Hardin accuses others of "Nihilism."

Environmentalism is bad, but it isn't Marxism. The ideologies are both wrong but have quite a few differences and shouldn't be lumped together as if they were the same.

Yes, I know you aren't trying to use the term with a lot of precision, but I'm just pointing it out.

Andrew:

Appreciate it. And you are quite correct.

I always use a small "m" to indicate a similarity the elements of anti-industrialization, anti-capitalism and anti-individualism that exists in many of these "movements."

As to environmentalism, I have always been an "environmentalist."

How would you define environmentalist? Let's see if we can come up with a definition that we can both agree on. This could be a truly worthwhile exercise.

Adam

[studiodekadent]

Well, Marxism (big M) is anything but anti-Industrial...

But anyway, by "Environmentalist" I don't mean "someone that believes in environmental conservation." I mean "someone that assigns 'untouched wilderness' an intrinsic value."

Many people that enjoy nature etc. etc. aren't "big E" Environmentalists (aka Utopian Environmentalists aka Ideological Environmentalists).

[Selene]

Well, Marxism (big M) is anything but anti-Industrial...

But anyway, by "Environmentalist" I don't mean "someone that believes in environmental conservation." I mean "someone that assigns 'untouched wilderness' an intrinsic value."

Many people that enjoy nature etc. etc. aren't "big E" Environmentalists (aka Utopian Environmentalists aka Ideological Environmentalists).

Ok, then we have a common sense of "environmentalist." Part of my upbringing was spent with farmers who were rural Pennsylvanians, small town folks. One church, one bar, a general store and a community dance hall. I learned my hunting , fishing and trapping from real folks. It was a river town. The complete reverence, respect and love of nature and the environment was crystal clear. As you stated, folks who "assign 'untouched wilderness' an intrinsic value." Well put by the way.

Your statement about Marxism (big M) being anything but anti-industrial interests me. I am no expert on big (M)arxism, so any edification on your statement would be valuable for me.

Adam

[Richard Wiig]

Well, Marxism (big M) is anything but anti-Industrial...

It is anti-rational, so it is anti the very foundations of industrial civilisation. It's hard not to conlude that it is anti-industrial.

[studiodekadent]

Your statement about Marxism (big M) being anything but anti-industrial interests me. I am no expert on big (M)arxism, so any edification on your statement would be valuable for me.

Well, lets put it this way; Marx is the only philosopher that has as much respect for industrial productiveness as Ayn Rand (I have a quote from David Kelley backing this up).

Marxism's view of human nature is that people are naturally producers (this does diverge from Objectivism; Objectivism argues people have to choose to produce, Marxism sees it as more-or-less automatic). They naturally create stuff... its the essential fact about human nature. This is why Marx argues for economic determinism; since production is human nature, the mode of production is going to shape all people and their psyches and society etc etc.

Look at all Socialist Realism in art; it is about glorifying the worker (who, in Marxism, is the producer... Marx sees labor as the creation of economic value). The Marxist society is based on the industrial proletariat.

Marxism doesn't assign intrinsic value to nature itself.

Marxism's utopia isn't one without factories or the like; it isn't idyllic pastoral fields or life 'in harmony with nature.'

[Selene]

Your statement about Marxism (big M) being anything but anti-industrial interests me. I am no expert on big (M)arxism, so any edification on your statement would be valuable for me.

Well, lets put it this way; Marx is the only philosopher that has as much respect for industrial productiveness as Ayn Rand (I have a quote from David Kelley backing this up).

Marxism's view of human nature is that people are naturally producers (this does diverge from Objectivism; Objectivism argues people have to choose to produce, Marxism sees it as more-or-less automatic). They naturally create stuff... its the essential fact about human nature. This is why Marx argues for economic determinism; since production is human nature, the mode of production is going to shape all people and their psyches and society etc etc.

Look at all Socialist Realism in art; it is about glorifying the worker (who, in Marxism, is the producer... Marx sees labor as the creation of economic value). The Marxist society is based on the industrial proletariat.

Marxism doesn't assign intrinsic value to nature itself.

Marxism's utopia isn't one without factories or the like; it isn't idyllic pastoral fields or life 'in harmony with nature.'

Thanks. Interesting. I see your point.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Well, Marxism (big M) is anything but anti-Industrial...

It is anti-rational, so it is anti the very foundations of industrial civilisation. It's hard not to conlude that it is anti-industrial.

This post was under moderation, but I didn't even know it.

The new forum format is allowing me to find stuff like this awaiting review a hell of a lot easier than before. I will go on a hunt today and see what else I can find.

Michael