Can Islam be Reformed?

[Richard Wiig]

An excellent discussion between Walid Shoebat, Zuhdi Jasser (a liberty minded muslim, who founded the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, who has set himself the task of reforming Islam) and Robert Spencer. Unlike those here who work to blur distinctions, Zuhdi Jasser does admit there are problems with Islam that need fixing. He faces the arguments of Mr Spencer and others, admiting that they make good points, rather than resorting to name calling and shifting the focus.

Here's the link to Mr Zuhdi Jasser's website: http://www.aifdemocracy.org/

He is one of the very few who are working for reform. Personally, I think the best reform that can be done for Islam is a reform of the West. Anyway, it is over an hour long, so if the subject interests you, grab a coffee. It is worth the watch. I have linked the video from Youtube and it is part one of fifteen.

Here's the entire video from the organisation that produced it:

http://www.abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=70&video_id=753

Edited April 2, 2011 by Infidel

[Libertarian Muslim]

An excellent discussion between Walid Shoebat, Zuhdi Jasser (a liberty minded muslim, who founded the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, who has set himself the task of reforming Islam) and Robert Spencer. Unlike those here who work to blur distinctions, Zuhdi Jasser does admit there are problems with Islam that need fixing. He faces the arguments of Mr Spencer and others, admiting that they make good points, rather than resorting to name calling and shifting the focus.

Here's the link to Mr Zuhdi Jasser's website: http://www.aifdemocracy.org/

He is one of the very few who are working for reform. Personally, I think the best reform that can be done for Islam is a reform of the West. Anyway, it is over an hour long, so if the subject interests you, grab a coffee. It is worth the watch. I have linked the video from Youtube and it is part one of fifteen.

Here's the entire video from the organisation that produced it:

http://www.abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=70&video_id=753

There's a giant mistake in the argument there that is often overlooked and causes Muslims to ignore these videos. I'm watching it now and will comment more in the future but just to start.

Yes, we believe that Islam is perfect because we believe it comes from God and that God is perfect. In fact in the Qur'an it states within one verse:

Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(Qur'an 5:3)

There is the belief because of this and other verses and hadith that Islam is the perfect religion and that God gave us something perfect.. If you state to Muslims that Islam itself needs reformation, then you'll be dismissed..

Perhaps you should be taking a different route if you'd like to see change.. What we will acknowledge however is that man is imperfect, and therefore, his interpretations are bound to have errors in them, thus we must always strive to reassess and again study with a deeper knowledge the Quran, Sunnah and Seerah with the revealed knowledge of the sciences etc today to ensure that in our development as humans, we are continually bettering our understanding of what God had meant in the texts that were revealed to us and in the example of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

[BaalChatzaf]

He is one of the very few who are working for reform. Personally, I think the best reform that can be done for Islam is a reform of the West.

Reform of the West? Could you clarify that, please.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Perhaps you should be taking a different route if you'd like to see change..

LM,

Wise words.

I have no issue with how or what someone believes so long as they do not interpret it to mean killing people, especially innocents, in the name of their God.

This issue always gets entangled in who started it, self-defense, empire and God knows what else, but I am talking about the deepest level of the soul.

If a man believes he must kill others to show the glory of his God to the rest of mankind, or, barring that, to appease his God, I believe he has misunderstood the teachings of his religion. I know of no religion where the wisest of the elders truly want this.

I do know of some boneheaded fanatical religious leaders (and some really vicious evil.ones) in practically all religions, but those are not the ones I am talking about. I believe the wisest of the wise are to be identified by their fruits--by the millions and millions of followers who are peaceful and productive--not by their rhetoric.

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

Perhaps you should be taking a different route if you'd like to see change.

Are you addressing me there, LM, or Mr Jasser? Mr Jasser, a muslim, is the one aiming to reform it, not me. My route in this is only to look at what people are saying and make a judgement as to who is making the most sense. 9/11 is what spurred me to investigate. If it wasn't for 9/11 and the other atrocities perpetrated in the name of Islam, I wouldn't be giving Islam a second thought. My interest is that people in the West have a clear view of the enemy that is coming at us. Why? Because I couldn't my Western way of life, and the values of liberty to be worth defending.

[Richard Wiig]

He is one of the very few who are working for reform. Personally, I think the best reform that can be done for Islam is a reform of the West.

Reform of the West? Could you clarify that, please.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I mean that the West needs to get its act together and relearn what Liberty means. It needs to get back to America being a shining light for freedom. That's the best thing that could happen for the Islamic world, in fact, for the whole world.

Richard

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I mean that the West needs to get its act together and relearn what Liberty means. It needs to get back to America being a shining light for freedom. That's the best thing that could happen for the Islamic world, in fact, for the whole world.

Richard,

Finally you said something I agree with without reservation.

Michael

[9thdoctor]

If a man believes he must kill others to show the glory of his God to the rest of mankind, or, barring that, to appease his God, I believe he has misunderstood the teachings of his religion. I know of no religion where the wisest of the elders truly want this.

There’s a bit of a nit to pick here. Add “currently widely practiced” and you’re right, but, human sacrifice was once a common practice of many religions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYqEi2d9zEc&feature=related

An interesting illustration is the Biblical story of Abraham and Isaac. God tells Abraham to take Isaac up a mountain and kill him, then an angel stops him at the last moment, supplying a ram to serve as replacement. The idea here, the meaning of the myth, is that you should be willing to engage in human sacrifice (or whatever God wants), but this new covenant doesn’t call for it. The context being ancient Judaism competing with, or supplanting, other religions that did call for it.

[9thdoctor]

Selene made a bad German joke on another thread recently, so I countered with an Italian joke, which I had to look up to get right. This meant pulling down my copy of Gravity’s Rainbow, a book that’s tough to recommend but, once you’ve struggled through it, is always good to page through again. Anyway, I just came across a terrific paragraph that fits in here, fairly well. It’s as much about Communist ideology:

“The basic problem,” he proposes, “has always been getting other people to die for you. What’s worth enough for a man to give up his life? That’s where religion had the edge, for centuries. Religion was always about death. It was used not as an opiate so much as a technique—it got people to die for one particular set of beliefs about death. Perverse, natürlich, but who are you to judge? It was a good pitch while it worked. But ever since it became impossible to die for death, we have had a secular version—yours. Die to help History grow to its predestined shape. Die knowing your act will bring a good end a bit closer. Revolutionary suicide, fine. But look: if History’s changes are inevitable, why not not die? Vaslav? If it’s going to happen anyway, what does it matter?”

Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow, p.701

[Libertarian Muslim]

Perhaps you should be taking a different route if you'd like to see change.

Are you addressing me there, LM, or Mr Jasser? Mr Jasser, a muslim, is the one aiming to reform it, not me. My route in this is only to look at what people are saying and make a judgement as to who is making the most sense. 9/11 is what spurred me to investigate. If it wasn't for 9/11 and the other atrocities perpetrated in the name of Islam, I wouldn't be giving Islam a second thought. My interest is that people in the West have a clear view of the enemy that is coming at us. Why? Because I couldn't my Western way of life, and the values of liberty to be worth defending.

My comment was towards anyone who makes the claim that Islam needs to be reformed rather than man's understanding of Islam needs to be reformed which is also what Dr Jasser has stated. I agree with a great deal of what Dr Jasser has stated in the program, though I still prefer Dr. Imad Ad-Deen Ahmad from the Minaret of Freedom Institute.

I mean that the West needs to get its act together and relearn what Liberty means. It needs to get back to America being a shining light for freedom. That's the best thing that could happen for the Islamic world, in fact, for the whole world.

Richard

I agree, I believe that if the US would simply do that, the rest of the world would see the beauty of Liberty in a proper example that doesn't bomb their countries and harm them and then want to follow that example, there's no need for these wars or imperialism when you have the better ideas.. People will see the logic and come to it if you show them it in a way that appeals to their nature.

[BaalChatzaf]

I mean that the West needs to get its act together and relearn what Liberty means. It needs to get back to America being a shining light for freedom. That's the best thing that could happen for the Islamic world, in fact, for the whole world.

Richard

There is nothing in Islam that puts a high value on Liberty. Islam is -submission-, submission to the Will of Allah.

For our own sake we should pursue Liberty. It will do no good for or to Muslims who do not give a rat's patootee about Liberty.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[bmacwilliam]

My comment was towards anyone who makes the claim that Islam needs to be reformed rather than man's understanding of Islam needs to be reformed ...

You are entitled to believe this, notwithstanding as profoundly nonsensical as it is. The west (at least officially) is tolerant of this within the boundaries of secular human rights and non-interference.

However, it is also very clear that Muslims must learn to be tolerant of people that believe that Islam is pure rubbish and want nothing to do with it. Unless Muslims can accept this, conflict will be ever-present.

Bob

[Richard Wiig]

Well, of course there's a bit of a bone to pick there, Ninth Doctor.

Quran 8:12

"Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.'"

And that's only one tiny small smidgeon of perfection.

[Richard Wiig]

I agree, I believe that if the US would simply do that, the rest of the world would see the beauty of Liberty in a proper example that doesn't bomb their countries and harm them and then want to follow that example, there's no need for these wars or imperialism when you have the better ideas.. People will see the logic and come to it if you show them it in a way that appeals to their nature.

In other words, Islam is off the rails because the West is off the rails, a subtle shifting of the blame. It's also a false idea, in that people will not necessarily be rational whatsoever, and there's examples of that everday in the face of rationality. Rationality isnt gone from the world, but it is going becaues it's constantly under attack and not well enough defended by those who value it, but, it's still prevalent enough for examples galore. It doesn't matter how many examples there are, they never work on those who choose the irrational. What a reformation of the West will do, however, is remove support for the irrational. Once that happens, the irrational will collapse under its own weight.

[Richard Wiig]

I mean that the West needs to get its act together and relearn what Liberty means. It needs to get back to America being a shining light for freedom. That's the best thing that could happen for the Islamic world, in fact, for the whole world.

Richard

There is nothing in Islam that puts a high value on Liberty. Islam is -submission-, submission to the Will of Allah.

For our own sake we should pursue Liberty. It will do no good for or to Muslims who do not give a rat's patootee about Liberty.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I agree 100%. Take note of LM's shifting of the blame.