The "Tea Party" is a fraud

[sjw]

The Tea Party proves they are just the same old Republican party:

http://bonzerwolf.squarespace.com/today/2011/2/9/tea-party-fails-to-vote-in-favor-of-constitutional-rights.html

So, barring some noteworthy exceptions, expect more of the same.

Shayne

[Selene]

The Tea Party proves they are just the same old Republican party:

http://bonzerwolf.sq...nal-rights.html

So, barring some noteworthy exceptions, expect more of the same.

Shayne

Shayne:

Would you be so kind as to post the Tea Party Platform.

Adam

[sjw]

So, barring some noteworthy exceptions, expect more of the same.

Here is one noteworthy exception:

Shayne

[bonzerwolf]

The Tea Party proves they are just the same old Republican party:

http://bonzerwolf.sq...nal-rights.html

So, barring some noteworthy exceptions, expect more of the same.

Shayne

Shayne:

Would you be so kind as to post the Tea Party Platform.

Adam

The "Tea Party" is not a political party with an organizational structure nor a platform as far as I know. The Tea Party sprung up as a grass roots movement in response to the Obamanation, which continued down the GOP road to national bankruptcy. The Tea Party has no defined leadership and answers to the GOP. There is a Tea Party Caucus in the House, and most of those members voted FOR the extension of the Patriot Act. IMHO, the only Party that is committed to following the Constitution is the Libertarian Party. You can read the LP platform at http://lp.org

[Jerry Biggers]

Hmmm,...

"fraud" is defined (Webster's New World Dictionary) as deceit, trickery, intentional deception; or a person who is an imposter.

Obviously, many politicians fall into that category, promising one thing before their election, and then failing to follow through on their promises or even doing the opposite. This may be part of the human condition in general, but politicians appear to have refined it to a fine art.

Whether the "Tea Party," a very loosely defined conglomeration of individuals, can keep its (when exactly what "it" is depends on who you ask) independence from the Republican Party and its vaguely conservative orientation (always subject to political expediency), is questionable. In any event, if a "tea party member" is elected as a Republican, he is going to be subjected to a lot of pressure to conform and vote as a bloc. With a few notable exceptions, most fall in line.

Whether it can last as an independent voice seems quite doubtful, given what has happened in American history to these kind of movements (e.g., populist, greenback, progressive, socialist). The most recent example was Ross Perot's "Reform Party," which tried to become a viable third party, but pretty much faded away not long after Perot's departure.

Purist groups such as the Libertarian and the Constitution parties, have had only minor (almost insignificant) "successes." After 40 years, the Libertarian Party has shown little growth, particularly in its ability to elect anyone to a major state office, let alone, national. By the way, the Libertarian Party's failure has been repeatedly pointed-out in editorials and articles in Liberty magazine. Most of their writers' complaints or suggestions went unheeded.

As far as "Objectivists" are concerned (which should be easy to define - but isn't, and is likely to remain so, short of an "O.K. Corral" shoot-out ) the various factions have little political significance (education is another matter). The largest faction (based on funding and their mail-in cards in Rand's books) prides itself in remaining independent of both conservatives and libertarians, and is visible to the public-at-large primarily due to brief guest appearances (with previously untouchable conservatives and libertarians) on some of the Fox Network shows. In most of their Fox appearances, they have been trotted-out to utter brief sound-bites indicating their agreement with the host's fulminations. Oh, I almost forgot, they also get to wave around a copy of Atlas Shrugged, with the admonition, "It's in there!".

So, where exactly does that lead us? 1) Work within the Republican Party, where fraud/political expediency (they prefer to term their compromises as "pragmatic" and "realistic") is the rule [Don't forget your garlic necklace and crucifix ];

2) stay pure, and hope that those deviationists will soon see it your way (they won't); 3) try to apply Objectivism or Libertarianism in your own life and/or educate others about it.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Jerry Biggers

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bonzer,

Welcome to OL.

I just skimmed your "about me" page on your blog.

Now I'm going to read it carefully--and other stuff you do.

I'm quite impressed.

Michael

[PDS]

Bonzer,

Welcome to OL.

I just skimmed your "about me" page on your blog.

Now I'm going to read it carefully--and other stuff you do.

I'm quite impressed.

Michael

Agreed. Bonzer Wolf seems to have lived a life worthy of his eponymous nom de plume.

[Selene]

The Tea Party proves they are just the same old Republican party:

http://bonzerwolf.sq...nal-rights.html

So, barring some noteworthy exceptions, expect more of the same.

Shayne

Shayne:

Would you be so kind as to post the Tea Party Platform.

Adam

The "Tea Party" is not a political party with an organizational structure nor a platform as far as I know. The Tea Party sprung up as a grass roots movement in response to the Obamanation, which continued down the GOP road to national bankruptcy. The Tea Party has no defined leadership and answers to the GOP. There is a Tea Party Caucus in the House, and most of those members voted FOR the extension of the Patriot Act. IMHO, the only Party that is committed to following the Constitution is the Libertarian Party. You can read the LP platform at http://lp.org

Bonzer:

Welcome to OL. I agree with Michael, you are an valuable "asset" to OL.

As you astutely noted, the Tea Party has no defined leadership, no platform and is connected to the conservative segment of the Republican Party.

My activity in the Tea Party Movement in the Northeast has confirmed that there is a strong libertarian and Randian element in the movement.

My satirical response to Shayne's post was to illustrate the above points.

As an organizer of the Libertarian Party in NY City in the early 70' we were successful in establishing a permanent Statewide ballot line. My program was to run candidates for local school board, where we had a proportional election scheme that perfectly fit us getting one to five members of a nine member board elected.

This local platform would have been a launching point for NY City Council races and then State Assembly and State Senate races The key aspect of of these local races was to build our field organization which is the critical factor in any election.

Unfortunately, the decision was made nationally to make Presidential campaigns the priority and the result is the Libertarian Party as it exists today.

Finally, we need to be politically adult and recognize how massive the fiscal juggernaut in Washington will be to slow down and stop.

To broad brush paint the Tea Party as a fraud because of this vote on the Patriot Act extension by Republicans who received support from elements of the Tea Party is not going to stop the unconstitutional imposition of this act.

Unfortunately, as you noted, this act will not make us any safer, it will give the central state more opportunities to tighten their grip on our freedoms.

We are in deep trouble. I am not willing to jettison the Tea Party because they have been effective and can continue to be effective. The Congressmen who voted for the extension are not the Tea Party.

Again, welcome to OL.

Adam

[bonzerwolf]

Thanks to all of you for the kind words. I believe protection of the people and their property is a legitimate function of the federal government. Unfortunately the agencies we depend on to perform this constitutional function have become bloated bureaucracies full of waste, fraud and mismanagement. The only function the bureaucrats perform well, is keeping the truth from the American people. I am working on a story about this happening at my former agency, DHS/ICE/HSI. Hopefully, I will get it posted on Bonzer Wolf this week.

[Selene]

Thanks to all of you for the kind words. I believe protection of the people and their property is a legitimate function of the federal government. Unfortunately the agencies we depend on to perform this constitutional function have become bloated bureaucracies full of waste, fraud and mismanagement. The only function the bureaucrats perform well, is keeping the truth from the American people. I am working on a story about this happening at my former agency, DHS/ICE/HSI. Hopefully, I will get it posted on Bonzer Wolf this week.

Bonzer:

Your candidate Cain was on Hannity last night, how die he come off?

Also, are you aware of the strength of the Muslim Brotherhood in the US? As you know, they were cited in Federal Holyland money laundering trial.

Adam

[sjw]

In other news, Ann Coulter says that what we need are more jailed journalists:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/13/ann-coulter-more-jailed-journalists_n_822533.html?ref=nf

Shayne

[Selene]

In other news, Ann Coulter says that what we need are more jailed journalists:

http://www.huffingto...533.html?ref=nf

Shayne

I would like any reader to watch the 22 minutes of entertaining answers given by the extremely intelligent Ann Coulter.

As you come across the part of her Q & A the"Huffington headline" refers to about jailing journalists which occurs at about the 5:00 minute mark and you realize that she was clearly being her satirical self, you will be just and fair in realizing the utter stupidity of picking that part of her Q & A and making it the headline.

By the way Shayne, did you listen to the entire video?

[sjw]

It does not surprise me Selene that you would find appealing the notion of inappropriate satire on an important issue -- freedom of speech under threat, unjust imprisonment -- given that most of your attacks on me in this forum come from the same kind of premises. I imagine that Leonard Peikoff would himself find any reference to the Bill of Rights equally worthy of mocking. Neoconservatisim is treason. What is the neoconservative punishment for treason? To bad this argument won't work on them like it did on M5: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Computer

Shayne

[pippi]

If Mitt Romney (or his ilk) is the face of the tea party it will be all for nothing.

It is pretty disheartening if that is all the tea party wrought.

Edited February 14, 2011 by pippi

[caroljane]

If Mitt Romney (or his ilk) is the face of the tea party it will be all for nothing-

It is pretty disheartening (aka depressing)

I know nothing about Ron Paul who the straw poll favored at the CPAC meeting-and I have no interest to find out-anyone who won a poll at a convention must be useless.

Indeed, knowing nothing and the lack of interest, and authoritative definition of uselessness, are strongly interrelated.

Impressive demonstration.

I

[bonzerwolf]

Thanks to all of you for the kind words. I believe protection of the people and their property is a legitimate function of the federal government. Unfortunately the agencies we depend on to perform this constitutional function have become bloated bureaucracies full of waste, fraud and mismanagement. The only function the bureaucrats perform well, is keeping the truth from the American people. I am working on a story about this happening at my former agency, DHS/ICE/HSI. Hopefully, I will get it posted on Bonzer Wolf this week.

Bonzer:

Your candidate Cain was on Hannity last night, how die he come off?

Also, are you aware of the strength of the Muslim Brotherhood in the US? As you know, they were cited in Federal Holyland money laundering trial.

Adam

I like Herman Cain and his message, as well as his experience in business. I'm a realist and know that he's a long shot. But Obama was considered a long shot early in his campaign. I was working for Customs Investigations in Dallas during the Holy Land Foundation investigation. I was not assigned to the case but did participate in some of the search warrants. The DFW metroplex has a very active and relatively large Muslim population, that flies under the national radar. While the Muslim Brotherhood is not the most radial Islamic group around, they certainly want to institute a theocracy in Egypt. That would be far from a free democracy. Based on what happened in both Iran and Iraq, I fear the worst in Egypt, now that a power vacuum has been created.

[Selene]

It does not surprise me Selene that you would find appealing the notion of inappropriate satire on an important issue -- freedom of speech under threat, unjust imprisonment -- given that most of your attacks on me in this forum come from the same kind of premises. I imagine that Leonard Peikoff would himself find any reference to the Bill of Rights equally worthy of mocking. Neoconservatisim is treason. What is the neoconservative punishment for treason? To bad this argument won't work on them like it did on M5: http://en.wikipedia....timate_Computer

Shayne

Shayne:

Ann defends the Constitution and understands it. You cannot hold a burnt out candle to her knowledge of the Bill of Rights. It was a joke. Your inability to understand humor saddens me because your are a reasonably intelligent individual.

Good night Shayne and stay safe.****

Adam

**** Whenever I leave a discussion with Shayne with this common good bye, he turns it into me threatening him with harm....go figure.

[Selene]

Thanks to all of you for the kind words. I believe protection of the people and their property is a legitimate function of the federal government. Unfortunately the agencies we depend on to perform this constitutional function have become bloated bureaucracies full of waste, fraud and mismanagement. The only function the bureaucrats perform well, is keeping the truth from the American people. I am working on a story about this happening at my former agency, DHS/ICE/HSI. Hopefully, I will get it posted on Bonzer Wolf this week.

Bonzer:

Your candidate Cain was on Hannity last night, how die he come off?

Also, are you aware of the strength of the Muslim Brotherhood in the US? As you know, they were cited in Federal Holyland money laundering trial.

Adam

I like Herman Cain and his message, as well as his experience in business. I'm a realist and know that he's a long shot. But Obama was considered a long shot early in his campaign. I was working for Customs Investigations in Dallas during the Holy Land Foundation investigation. I was not assigned to the case but did participate in some of the search warrants. The DFW metroplex has a very active and relatively large Muslim population, that flies under the national radar. While the Muslim Brotherhood is not the most radial Islamic group around, they certainly want to institute a theocracy in Egypt. That would be far from a free democracy. Based on what happened in both Iran and Iraq, I fear the worst in Egypt, now that a power vacuum has been created.

Bonzer:

Thanks for the info. I also have Cain on my hot list for 2012. I have been in politics as a field organization consultant and election day specialist for decades. I also see him as a "long shot." but luck comes to the well prepared. O'biwan's campaign was one of the best I have ever seen structurally. They were even insightful enough to have an internet special ops section that monitored the blogs and basically took the internet sites over with their traffic.

Additionally, their election day operation was worthy of the ones that I, and my people, have always put together, which is saying damn near perfect.

The more I find out about the Muslim Brotherhood the more jittery I become about Egypt. I listened to the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Lebanon today,. live, and he talked about how the Brotherhood in Egypt would only want to take 25 to 33 % of the seats. They are very patient. They plan long range. Spooky folks, suits and ties, very "regular" looking,

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Good night Shayne and stay safe.****

Adam

**** Whenever I leave a discussion with Shayne with this common good bye, he turns it into me threatening him with harm....go figure.

You say this when you take issue with someone. It's a kind of an inverse ad hominem argument. It is condescending too. Also, what's to stay safe from? Where's the danger? What's the danger? Something from you? Something from within himself? All this and more--or even less, for who knows what's going on in your mind coming up with such a statement? You may personally have one conscious benign idea about it like Ayn Rand's "Good premises," but there's no mistaking her meaning and benevolence. I don't thing she used it as a sign off on an unresolved argument or conflict. In regard to this specific post I rendered the quote from, I do think Shayne is too thin skinned about your humor.

--Brant

[sjw]

You say this when you take issue with someone. It's a kind of an inverse ad hominem argument. It is condescending too. Also, what's to stay safe from? Where's the danger? What's the danger? Something from you? Something from within himself? All this and more--or even less, for who knows what's going on in your mind coming up with such a statement? You may personally have one conscious benign idea about it like Ayn Rand's "Good premises," but there's no mistaking her meaning and benevolence. I don't thing she used it as a sign off on an unresolved argument or conflict.

That sums it up. Selene says "be safe" at the end of a hostile and unresolved debate (filled with his mocking and smirking), and then when I ask him what is meant by "be safe" he refuses to answer, and then he complains when I figure he must mean something untoward.

Shayne

[Selene]

You say this when you take issue with someone. It's a kind of an inverse ad hominem argument. It is condescending too. Also, what's to stay safe from? Where's the danger? What's the danger? Something from you? Something from within himself? All this and more--or even less, for who knows what's going on in your mind coming up with such a statement? You may personally have one conscious benign idea about it like Ayn Rand's "Good premises," but there's no mistaking her meaning and benevolence. I don't thing she used it as a sign off on an unresolved argument or conflict.

That sums it up. Selene says "be safe" at the end of a hostile and unresolved debate (filled with his mocking and smirking), and then when I ask him what is meant by "be safe" he refuses to answer, and then he complains when I figure he must mean something untoward.

Shayne

Shayne:

It was not a complaint.

I do not take debate in terms of "hostility" and the reason that I withdraw from a "debate" with you is that you will not agree to the rules of debate. Therefore, rather than waste an inordinate amount of time and space in a "debate" with you, I decided early on, when you "reacted" that you were not a misogynist about a specific issue we were discussing about women to disengage.

I believe in defining terms. I believe I "challenged" you on a specific thread that we have a formal debate. Apparently, you indicated that that format would not be appropriate.

So be it. Your "debate" with George, thankfully, has been quite educational for me, but it still hinges on solid definitions of terms.

I have no "hostility," or personal animus towards you. I enjoy humor within the context of argument, or, debate. You are, apparently, uncomfortable with that aspect of my "style."

Fine.

I specifically referenced your reaction to my "be safe" statement because I knew it was going to proceed down this path. In point of fact, once before, you actually remarked that you were happy that there would be a record of my "threat" to you on this forum in case "something happened to you." Well, that was sufficient for me to realize that your sense of melodrama was quite unique.

Adam

[sjw]

blah blah blah...

All you had to do before was answer what you meant. It's a simple request. I mean really, you blather on and on and on about so many other things, it doesn't seem that far out of your way to clarify what you mean when you say "Be safe Shayne."

Shayne

[bonzerwolf]

We can't even agree to "be safe"? Oh well, can't speak for the others but among law enforcement types (and retired LEO types) "Be safe" and "Be Careful" are common ways of saying goodbye. Believe me, there is no hidden or ill intent.

Speaking of hidden agenda, the Obama 2010 Budget Proposal is out. If this wasn't such a serious issue, I would be LOL. WTF? Here's a summary of the low lights Obama Deficit Death March

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Bonzer,

Off the cuff, I believe your figures might be conservative. Debt usually works according to logarithms, not straight lines. What I mean is that 50% more starting from a little is a lot different than 50% more starting from a lot. It's like compounded interest, where accumulated interest grows the principal and becomes the object for calculating its own interest.

I have a general "wondering if" doubt about all this.

As many here know, I am an unashamed Glenn Beck fan (with a few disagreements with him, but not enough to skew my admiration for what he is doing). One of the points he highlights in the progressive agenda is the Cloward and Piven strategy of collapsing the system from within by running up unpayable debts--usually from piling on entitlement recipients, but that's not the only way. The idea behind the strategy is when an old order collapses, a new order can be established.

I haven't figured out if this is Obama's plan with his monetary policies, or if he is simply an incompetent administrator. He seems to be very competent at running his own political machine for getting new stuff done (getting elected, getting bills passed, etc.), but he appears to be clueless in running of the government.

When a man is as smart as he is, it makes me wonder. Is he trying to collapse the system on purpose, or is blind to the effect his policies have on collapsing the system because he doesn't know what else to do?

It's a little like what Rand said about being killed by murder or by accident (if I remember correctly). It doesn't really matter to the dead person. He's just as dead either way. What this means Obama-wise is that we have to replace him if we want the country to go on a different not-dying course.

Michael

[Robert Campbell]

I haven't figured out if this [the grand scheme of Cloward and Piven] is Obama's plan with his monetary policies, or if he is simply an incompetent administrator. He seems to be very competent at running his own political machine for getting new stuff done (getting elected, getting bills passed, etc.), but he appears to be clueless in running of the government.

When a man is as smart as he is, it makes me wonder. Is he trying to collapse the system on purpose, or is blind to the effect his policies have on collapsing the system because he doesn't know what else to do?

Michael,

Barack Obama is really smart, but also highly inclined to believe in the perfection of Barack Obama.

He has been adept at gaining power, is eager to keep it, and (as one of my brothers astutely observed) is smart enough to learn economics but never went to the trouble, because such knowledge wasn't going to enhance his appeal to his intended constituency.

I think he personally is largely oblivious to the destructive effects of his favored policies.

Some of those around him could have something else in mind.

Robert Campbell