Abiding Dude

On 4/21/2022 at 2:57 AM, anthony said:

1. The coup. A legal government was forced out by revolutionaries.

2. Kyiv's lengthy assault on the Donbas; the easterners who (not irrationally) had decided that they could have no future part in a nation that could "steal the election" (so to speak) by coup, sought "separation" and were attacked.

3. Putin's invasion. Following Ukraine's failure to implement the terms of the Minsk agreements re: Luhansk and Donetsk 'republics'.

That is 3 evasions and 3 initiations of force, this invasion the most egregious.

There's the simplistic ethics. 

1+2=3

NOTE FROM MSK: Trolling comment removed, but a link going to an article by Tracinski is preserved. 

... you could read someone ... 

3 hours ago, anthony said:

Not me. I've generalized. I made not a connection between that specific atrocity and 'collateral damage'. You've mixed me up with others.

Yes, that's correct, sorry. I should have written tmj.

On 4/9/2022 at 12:49 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

The most important point, though, is that he cuts through all the bullshit word salads about about setting up a large number of labs to "study" and design the manufacture of pathogens that can wipe out humanity. And, yes, many of these are set up in Ukraine.

Except there's a twist. A lot of these studies are targeted to specific genetic configurations like race and others. Put simply, these sons of bitches are trying to design a bug that will wipe out, say, all Asian people, but leave the other races alone. Or vice-versa (hello China....)

From the article you linked to: Despite Nuland’s concern about the pathogens being used in warfare, the Western media have tried to claim the labs were set up to destroy bioweapons from the Soviet era, or to “secure” old Soviet bioweapons, or that they’re diagnostic labs, “health labs,” biodefense laboratories, or that they’re used for vaccine development. The story changes depending on who’s telling it.

No, they're all true. They were set up to destroy Soviet bioweapons; they are also used for all of the purposes above. These are not mutually exclusive, and they are not even secret; as I mentioned before, I learned about them from reading about Russian propaganda about a similar lab in Georgia.

The Soviets did build bioweapons labs in those now-independent countries. The US Defense Department and other organizations did get involved in securing them and in using them to conduct epidemiological research. (There are many zoonotic diseases--diseases infectious to both animals and humans--in that part of the world, such as anthrax, the plague, and on and on, that pose a grave threat to human health--this interesting overview of naturally occurring anthrax risks gives an idea why such research is pursued: We estimate that 1.83 billion people...live within regions of anthrax risk, but most of that population faces little occupational exposure. More informatively, a global total of 63.8 million poor livestock keepers...and 1.1 billion livestock...live within vulnerable regions).

(Partly this was as a means of keeping former bioweapons scientists gainfully employed instead of set free to become bioweapons producers for groups and rogue states that might want to create them).

Moreover, some have been used for vaccine development. It's not an ever-changing story, it's all different parts of the same story.

The article continues, But to create the cure — the vaccine — they must first create that imagined threat, be it a souped-up natural pathogen through gain-of-function or a synthetic bioweapon. So, all of this work is “offensive” in that it can be used for military purposes.

1. "Having the possibility of use as a bioweapon" is not the definition of "offensive" in bioweapons terminology, which is the development, production, and stockpiling of bioweapons for offensive use. It does not include studying them for biodefense purposes. This is included in the very law that Boyle crows about drafting and that either he or this author misrepresents:

"Whoever knowingly develops, produces, stockpiles, transfers, acquires, retains, or possesses any biological agent, toxin, or delivery system for use as a weapon, or knowingly assists a foreign state or any organization to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both." (emphasis added; in other words, if you look at what the law actually says, this article--probably deliberately--confounds "biological agent" and "bioweapon" and ignores the requirement of mens rea stated in the law)

2. By this view, any development of vaccines (or, for that matter, the collection of samples of biological agents for epidemiological research, which the labs in question have conducted) is inherently offensive bioweapons research, since you have to collect, cultivate, and test against a pathogen, which means that they might possibly be used in a different process as bioweapons. So when that article writes, The problem with making a distinction between “biodefense” and “biowarfare” is that, basically, there is none, by the same token there's no distinction between vaccine research, epidemiological research, and bioweapons.

3. You write, Except there's a twist. A lot of these studies are targeted to specific genetic configurations like race and others. So what? They haven't shown that any of this research is offensive bioweapons research, and there is a lot of research on genetic factors in disease susceptibility. (Think of sickle cell anemia for why.) This is positive and important research (...)

And note this inconsistency: He points out that the United States is the only country in the world that has not abided by the law to get rid of all its biological weapons (The United States has in fact gotten rid of bioweapons, starting in 1972 under Nixon, though not biological agents for biodefense work--again, the article deliberately confuses the two), but oh wait, The U.S. is not alone in creating dangerous biological weapons, of course. “The British are also a part of this, the French, the Israelis. We have a network and a cult of Nazi biowarfare death scientists,” Boyle says. So which is it, only the US or everyone?

Note--I'm not saying there's not bioweapons research; perhaps there is, though the claims that there are are just Russian continuations of Soviet smear campaigns since 1949. What I am saying is that articles like this are ridiculous: It doesn't make a case plausible to anyone who's actually followed any of this (...)

7 minutes ago, Peter said:

AD wrote: . . . “their analysis of Ukrainian drone footage of the bodies during the time Bucha was under Russian occupation, not when there was fighting:”

So . . . the Ukrainians are faking it all? I will consider the proposition that they fake some footage. But one last question? Is Ukraine in the wrong to fight against invading monsters? Oddly enough, some of you can’t figure that out. Has OL been taken over by moronic Russian hackers?

No. Read the article. The civilians appear to have been shot by Russian soldiers when they had control of the city, not, as claimed by Anthony, killed as collateral damage by Ukrainian bombing.

4 hours ago, anthony said:

And William, a reminder of such urban conflicts, how a portion of civilians will also get injured and killed by 'friendly fire'. Shelling, bombardment, missiles and small arms.

Another interesting article by Meduza reporting their analysis of Ukrainian drone footage of the bodies during the time Bucha was under Russian occupation, not when there was fighting:

"Meduza has not only obtained additional evidence that corroborates Maxar’s imagery — showing that Russian forces were present in Bucha when the civilian killings took place — but we have also independently confirmed when this footage was recorded."

12 hours ago, tmj said:

And it’s not happening now, predatory class propaganda , ‘genocide’?

The massacre in Bucha ? Given the timing of the deaths ‘documented’ by satellite ‘evidence’ , those bodies are most likely the results of the area being shelled , the civilians died in their own town from artillery fire . Were the Russian forces that occupied the area shelling themselves ?

A good survey of the information about Bucha is available from Meduza here. As they state, "After Russian troops captured the city, the active fighting stopped; judging by the state of the buildings (which were largely left intact compared to those in other Ukrainian cities), artillery fire happened relatively infrequently. This was confirmed by NASA’s global fire map, FIRMS, which uses satellite imagery: most of the fires in the city were recorded in late February, when Russian troops were first entering the city and Ukrainian troops were firing at them. From March 5 to the end of the month, less than ten large fires were recorded in Bucha, while dozens were recorded in Irpin. This suggests that the Bucha residents who died in the second half of March did not die as a result of ongoing military activity."

9 hours ago, Peter said:

History is a long, winding, and tiring road. As a kid I enjoyed the Disney TV version about the annexation of Mexican territory in what is now the state of Texas. "Remember the Alamo!" The U.S. also had some conflicts with our good neighbors, Canada. But now? Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is the initiation of force. I do agree there are gray areas, as when some Ukrainian citizens want to become Russian citizens. Yet, the vast amount of the world agrees with this ‘current assessment” and Russia will suffer repercussions for a long, long time . . . until history stretches a hundred more years into the future. More Russian atrocities are being shown at the news at noon. Ukraine did not invade Russia. Slovakia is joining the civilized world by donating munitions to Ukraine Peter    

Notes Remember the Alamo: The Persistence of Myth by Ron Briley Mr. Briley is Assistant Headmaster, Sandia Preparatory School. A vivid memory from my childhood is a birthday party in which my wish for Davy Crockett merchandise was granted. I trotted off to a small Texas Panhandle school with Davy Crockett lunch box, coonskin cap, buckskin shirt, and replica of Crockett's musket, affectionately named "Ole' Betsy." Until late in the evening, I would reenact Crockett's last stand at the Alamo; a most unusual childhood game culminating in the heroic fantasy death of myself and my playmates. Of course, we all insisted on portraying the defenders of the Alamo, while the Mexican forces of General Lopez de Santa Anna remained only imaginary characters.

That's a pretty good review, but there's more to the story than even that, though that would perhaps be out of place in that review. He hints at it here: "As the film suggests, Santa Anna was quick to execute those who rose in rebellion against him, but he also conscripted many poor young Mexican peasants into the army that assaulted the Alamo." And many Mexicans rose in rebellion against Santa Anna, not just in Texas--at least 15 of the Mexican states rebelled against Santa Anna's policies of a centralized, pro-Catholic republic in 1835 (the preceding liberal administration had implemented policies of selling off church lands, among other measures) and his repeal of the Mexican Constitution, and in fact Santa Anna didn't march against Texas until after he'd put down rebellion in Zacatecas. The defense of slavery was one factor in the Texas Revolution, but the major cause was precisely the repeal of the constitution to which the Texans had taken an oath to become Mexican citizens.

More generally, throughout the period after 1821, Mexico was torn between the federalists and the centralists, and the stalemate between them was the major factor in Mexican history until Diaz (read about the Reform War, for example). The history of Texas as (part of) a Mexican state and of the Texas Revolution was shaped by the fact that Texians (Anglo-American settlers) were staunchly on the federalist side; and the fact that Texas remained independent until 1844-1845 (treaty of annexation in 1844, finally enacted in 1845) was due fundamentally to the fact that the federalists and centralists in Mexico distrusted each other too much for a consistent policy to be adopted (though Santa Anna did gin up an army that attacked Texas in 1842; it massacred a bunch of people and strengthened Texan desires to join the US). It might be too strong to say Mexico was a failed state at that time (some historians have argued that), but it was certainly a weak and divided state.

It's also worth comparing it to the situation in Ukraine. Texas rebelled after the constitution was repealed; the Russian separatists rebelled after a pro-Russian president fled to Russia. Texas received American volunteers but no official American military aid; Russia sent its armies into Ukraine two days after Yanukovich ran away. Texas was one of numerous states of Mexico rebelling against a dictator wanna-be who repealed the constitution; Donetsk and Luhansk rebelled against parliamentary acts in accordance with the constitution. If the Ukraine separatists are in the right, then Texas independence was peachy keen and smells like a rose by their standards; if Texas independence was wrong, then there's not much right about Donetsk-Luhansk independence.

13 hours ago, anthony said:

You remain unconvinced of the basic fact.

That war did not start this year.

Kyiv launched it against the East, against their own citizens - after the people dared to hold a referendum for separation from Ukraine ~ 2014.

Resoundingly voted in favor.

A little war which killed 6,000* Eastern civilians pre-invasion (and would have had some atrocities and no angels on either side, no doubt).

There should rationally be no causal - deterministic -  factor from the first part of this conflict to Putin deciding to invade - but - there WAS a precedent of force set by Kyiv.

Putin took advantage, with his eye on the territories' prizes, and also I do think, protective of the easterners from Kyiv's military.

 

Euromaidan, protests against pro-Russian actions by the president against the decisions of Parliament, took place from November 2013 to February 2014. After Yanukovich fled on 21 February, Russia invaded Crimea on 23 February; at the same time, pro-Russian demonstrations started in Donetsk and Luhansk. There was already war against Russian forces on Ukrainian territory, in other words, and the events in the separatist regions were exactly parallel to what Russia was doing in Crimea. The Crimean referendum was held on 16 March; all the referendums in Donetsk and Luhansk were after that--the first supposed referendum in Donetsk was on 6 April, but that was basically an attempted putsch that failed miserably; the referendum that Russia backed was on 11 May. Don't forget: Russia attacked Ukraine two days after their puppet president ran away, and the same things that Russia engineered in Crimea were happening at the same time in Donetsk and Luhansk. All of these events were driven by Russia, following the same divide-and-conquer techniques Russia had already practiced in Georgia.

56 minutes ago, anthony said:

Is Putin a Hitler intent on taking Ukraine - Poland, the Czech Republic, Europe - the World? And here is the Churchill (with nuclear weapons) to say "No Further!"

...

It is not as much about "ethnicity" as one part of the society which leans towards the old culture and western Ukrainers who aspire to modern European civilization, I think.

Putin does what he thinks he can get way with. Like Hitler, he has sent in troops wherever the opportunity has presented itself--Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Crimea, Donbas, Kazakhstan, Syria--and in many cases for the defense of ethnic Russians in exactly the same way Hitler did so for the defense of ethnic Germans. But really, I'm just agreeing with you: "No, the dirty tricks Putin has been up to in supporting a break-away bunch of Ukrainian-Russians who would force another annexation of a part of Ukraine--while pretending he has nothing to do with it. He could soon be doing some major backing down I predict, the only good thing to come out of this." Of course, back then he only marched into the Donbas and Crimea; now that he's invaded many other parts of Ukraine with over 100,000 troops, he's clearly just trying to negotiate.

24 minutes ago, anthony said:

So, no. Putin knew that Ukraine alone, could not be held for long- if he even wanted to; If he didn't at first, he surely knows now. And he knows he couldn't step an inch past Ukraine with the war-escalators clamoring for revenge .

Obviously then, Putin's territorial goal was and is slightly more modest:  Establishing and securing the Donpass self-nominated republics initially by force, following with negotiations.

Not obviously at all. You write, "If he didn't at first, he surely knows now." You then contradict yourself, "Obviously then, Putin's territorial goal was and is slightly more modest: " What Putin is willing to accept now is probably more modest than what he demanded when he invaded, which was basically to reduce Ukraine to dependent status. Otherwise all he needed to do was march his armies into Donbas and Luhansk instead of pouring over the borders from all directions. Merely a negotiating tactic? Right.

13 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

AD,

Yes.

And more.

All sides.

Consistency with these assholes is no object.

I'm not asking about consistency from a senile idiot socially promoted into second Jimmy-Carterhood, I'm asking for a consistent answer from you.

17 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

AD,

Here in O-Land, we call that a false dichotomy.

The situation with the CIA is rotten to the core. I lived in Brazil for 32 years and saw up close what it was capable of while staying in the shadows. But people (all people, not just Ukrainians) have agency, even when they are manipulated with propaganda and dirty tricks.

Stop avoiding the question: Were the thousands of Euromaidan protestors and 73% of the Ukrianian Parliament who voted to remove the president from office after he fled to Russian-controlled Crimea and then to Russia CIA stooges and/or agents, or did they do what they did for their own reasons? In short, were they right in stripping a president of office for going against a parliamentary decision and then fleeing, or was it fundamentally just a CIA plot in which their decision means nothing?

4 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Do you know how Putin managed to fund his invasion of Ukraine?

Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden got him the money.

Uranium One. Nord Stream pipeline. God knows what else. And they knew he would use it to invade Ukraine (or worse) when they did it. But they didn't care. They got filthy stinking rich (richer) doing this.

So they knew Putin would invade Ukraine and didn't care. Yet in the post starting this thread, you wrote, "Now Biden is tanking in the polls and his butt is owned by oligarchs and others in Ukraine (especially from his son's corrupt ventures). So what better way to solve it all than a sudden war for profit?...To make it look good, they have been antagonizing Russia to try to goad Putin into overreacting. Then they can send in American troops and look justified."

On 15 February, you wrote, "What a big fake nothing-burger...This is a Biden machine PR stunt and not much more."

So did Biden know Putin would invade Ukraine and didn't care, or did he have to make up lots of lies to make him do it because there was no way he'd have done it otherwise?

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Peter,

What would you feel if South Korea invaded North Korea and millions of North Koreans made a run for the border?

Would you feel the same moral outrage against South Korea that you feel against Russia? Would your arguments be the same? Would South Korea be a more evil country than North Korea?

The fact is, many of the same things that happen in North Korea have been perpetrated in Ukraine by the Ukrainian government against the Russian part (called the Donbas region). Not to the same extent, but just as deadly. Deaths galore. What's more, they do it back.

I see, so minority ethnicities have every right to invite in foreign armies seeking to protect their rights, as Russia did on the Donbas, and as Hitler did in the Sudentenland. It is wrong to ban political parties supporting dismembering the state to join an outside state, as Ukraine did recently and as Czechoslovakia did when it banned the Nazi Party. A willing tool of Russia like Medvedchuk and a tool of Hitler like Henlein, leader of the Sudentenland autonomy movement, are right and good and Benes and Zelenskyy are bad bad bad. After all, all Hitler wanted was pan-German unity (he said so himself!); all Putin wants is pan-Russian unity (he said so himself!). And by your argument, then, Czechoslovakia and Nazi Germany were equally evil.

1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

You won't read about any of this in the mainstream press. But the fact is, Ukraine had a duly elected government and the CIA went in and did one of its regime change operations in 2014. Do you agree with the US government funding violence in foreign countries to effect regime change? Isn't that a form of invasion?

Actually, protests started throughout Ukraine in November 2013, called the Euromaidan movement. Why did they protest? Because the duly elected Parliament had voted overwhelmingly to closer ties with Western Europe, but the president, Yanukovich (who was at the time declared the most corrupt world leader by Transparency International), and his government rejected their demands and chose a pro-Russian position instead. The protests turned violent and Yanukovich finally fled to Russian territory (since they liked the cut of his jib) and the next day was stripped of the title of president by Parliament, 328 of 447 members. So what in that was the doing of the CIA? Is it your position that the Ukrainians had no agency in any of this process and that it was all the malign doings of the CIA?

11 minutes ago, anthony said:

From another angle, they did. And did try. The several years-long assault by Kyiv on the eastern regions, denying the Russian-Ukrainians their self-determination, what do you call that? A conflict not reported over-much that I've seen on the media. The MSM's notion of "History" goes back one year. Why confuse viewers with nuanced info?

I have asked: who draws the borders? Are they set in stone, never to be negotiated by people living there?

Exactly! I mean, think about the German-hating victors who included all those German speakers in the Sudetenland inside Czechoslovakia in 1918. They made up a quarter of the population of Czechoslovakia. It sure is a good thing the West agreed with Hitler in 1938 that they needed to be returned to the pan-German state instead of leaving them bereft of ethnic "self"-determination inside a foreign ethnicity. Solved that problem for al time, instead of creating a world war like those stubborn Ukrainians are doing.

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

Here. Watch Tucker talk about it (including his own speculations about bioweapons).

Tucker Carlson cites a connection between Hunter Biden and Ukrainian biolabs

RUMBLE.COM

---

Tucker Carlson cites reporting by The National Pulse saying that a private equity firm run by...

 

So basically, what Carlson's saying is he's paid so little attention to the news that all the different biolabs the US is involved in are complete news to him. So secret, so hidden, that Wikipedia had a page about them at least as long ago as 2014. Funny, I heard all about supposed bioweapons labs years ago when Putin was saying the same stupid lies about the Georgian lab. So what am I supposed to believe, Tucker Carlson and your own ignorant speculations because you weren't aware of long-standing news, or my own lying eyes?

3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

 

But does that mean nobody else lies and does dastardly things? Nobody in Ukraine and the US government, for example, lies and does dastardly things about, say bioweapons, as your words have implied?

 

Another perfect example of the fact that you're so well trained by your Muscovite master that you yet again automatically equate biolabs and bioweapons. Tell me, which exchange rate do you use when you declare the rubles in your foreign income to the IRS?

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

You will see what I mean if you look at the article. Do you want names, links, documents, technical research and other forms of identification and proof along with clear explanations? Read the article and you will not be disappointed.

For those with less time, the gist is that Hunter Biden and his pals are embedded in this Ukraine biolabs project up to their eyeballs. And so is the Pentagon. Now, especially for those mentally challenged about dot-connecting, the Pentagon focuses on war stuff and funds it. That would include bioweapons...

Really good article. If true, Hunter Biden's group's doing damn good standard scientific work. For example:

One paper aimed “to better understand anthrax epizootiology in Ukraine,” collecting samples from anthrax hotspots with funds from the U.S. DTRA’s Cooperative Biological Engagement Program in Ukraine.

“We tested wild boar serum samples collected across Ukraine for antibodies to B. anthracis and determined whether exposed boars were associated with livestock anthrax hotspots,” explains the paper.

Zoonotic diseases are a major threat to human health; it's good they're taking part in global efforts to monitor and diagnose them. (But then you'd need basic scientific literacy to recognize that, so of course that seems to have gone right over your head.) Oh, and bioweapons? Not according to the authors. That's just your little bit of Moscow-leaning slander added in. Keep up the good work, Gospodin--you'll get those sweet sweet rubles yet!

On 3/23/2022 at 4:43 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

 

The thing is, I don't even agree with him, not on his choices and not on his oversimplified depiction of the situation. (And there's this, his spelling is careless  ). 

...

That middle finger is the part I resonate with.

My respect for David Harriman just increased ten-fold.

 

Interesting--you disagree with what he actually says, but because you sense some sort of similar emotional content, you like him 10 times as much. In other words, you freely admit you don't give a damn about facts or the truth, but you judge people by their emotional resonance with you and LOVE people whose emotional outpourings show they belong to your group. Comrade Putin is very pleased with you, Gospodin, following the party line so well without explicit instructions from Moscow.  Moscow needs more shills like you.

9 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

It might be a VPN, but Mongolia?

Dayaamm!

Yeah, Tor is fun.

On 3/8/2022 at 2:09 PM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

It's no longer speculation.

It's confirmed.

The sons of bitches on our side have been funding bioweapons in Ukraine.

Putin must have been pleased as punch to know the USA was manufacturing bioweapons on its border.

The Soviet Union manufactured lies that the US was using bioweapons from 1949 on; after a lull with the end of the USSR, the Russians started up with that nonsense again in 1995. This is very well documented. They have lied consistently, loudly, blatantly, and ridiculously that every disease under the sun passing around the former Soviet Union was released by US bioweapons labs--actually former Soviet bioweapons labs in Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, and elsewhere that the US DoD has been working to secure and that have been used for disease tracking. (Which is the difference between biolabs and bioweapons labs that in your ignorance or malice you consistently confuse, or at best dismiss by saying, "the difference doesn't matter because...well, because Biden sucks.") You claim that you believe people who haven't lied to you before those who have, yet you parrot Russian lies when they've been shown to be inveterate, flagrant liars and propaganda mongers for fun, profit, practice, and kicks. (For example, earlier in this thread you accused the US of lying about Putin planning to invade Ukraine, quoting Russian sources on that; once Russia invaded, did you say "Wait-a-minute, I think I just got played?" No, you memory-holed that--total blank-out.) And why? Ignorance? That's certainly a part of it--the way you've had to scramble to try to pick up the basics of the history of the area shows that, and the fact that this whole propaganda effort about biolabs in Ukraine seems to have taken you so much by surprise backs that up. But a big part of it is your ways of thinking. I don't think I'm being unfair in saying you really don't know much about the subject of biolabs, or virology, or Russian and Ukrainian history, or much else. Instead of learning much about it, though, you just queue up a few YouTube videos and Twitter threads and say "Aha gotcha!" when something matches your pre-existing prejudices. The difference between the credence you give to anything peddled ultimately by Russia and your caustic skepticism combined with knee-jerk speculation on malign ulterior motives of anyone not Putin is striking--you might believe you're objective and fair, but you're not. You think you're some sort of expert at marketing, the ways of propaganda, and teasing out narratives, but that just means you're very easily played by any propagandist who pushed your particular buttons. So no, if Putin is pleased as punch about anything, it's that you're such a useful and not particularly intelligent tool, and best of all, he probably doesn't even have to pay you any rubles--he just has to spew another bit of propaganda with Biden's name stuck in it and you'll treat it as yet another smoking gun.