Richard Wiig

It would be nice if they encouraged them to go before they start dropping the bombs, rather than stopping them at the borders.

I don't think that's relevant if the focus is Islam, unless it's to highlight any differences. Islam brings submission to the fore in a way that I don't think other religions do. It's very name means submission to Allah. It is also a religion of the sword and incompatible with freedom.

It's not that I say bad things about Islam, it's the way I say it that Michael doesn't like. I am no bigot, but I say things in a manner that he doesn't like, so in his eyes that makes me a bigot. No matter that I don't collectively judge all muslims as sharia supporters, or as jihadists, or as haters of non-muslims, etc.

It is the doctrine and dogma that requires submission. Individuals have the power to deviate from dogma as much as the please or dare. Ba'al Chatzaf That is pretty much stating the obvious. Islam does require submission though. Islam means submission.

I hope you're not calling ALL Muslims submissive. It'd be terrible to think that there's more than one bigot in this thread.

But I did. This guy flouting friendships with Muslims has the same meaning as Southern racists saying some of their best friends are black. It's a statement aimed at trying to pretend the bigot is reasonable and the bigotry is not bigotry. If you swallow it as reasonable and wait, the bigot always goes back to preaching bigotry openly. Just like this guy has done over and over. So it's a manipulation tactic for short-term advantage and nothing more. Michael I wasn't asking you, I was asking Adam. I was expecting an agenda from him. As for my raising my friendship with muslims being just more evidence of my bigotry to you, it reminds of what used to happen to people accused of witchcraft. If you deny that you are a witch, it's clear evidence that you are a witch.

Islam is a religion of peace certainly doesn't reflect the status quo in the Western sense. Peace needs to be examined on Islamic terms, not on what you and I both take it to mean. Peace is when Dar al-Harb has come under Dar al-Islam. Peace will reign when Islam reigns. In that sense, it is certainly a religion of peace. Islam is also a religion of submission.

But it is not seen as fascism by those who are attracted to it. It is seen as morally correct, and that doesn't emanate from what you've termed the fascist state. It emanates from Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah. It is an Islamic state, and we are in a position where we must attack it, if we wish to defend ourselves, precisely because it is choosing Islam. That is an inescapable fact. Yeah, but we aren't going to war with Indonesia even though there are more Muslims there than any other country on Earth. --Brant the only Muslim terrorist out of Indonesia to the United States I'm aware of the the current POTUS Of course we are not going to war with Indonesia. We are not going to war with Iraq either, but there we are in Iraq fighting. As for terrorists out of Indonesia, there are plenty of them, and the Bali bombers didn't discriminate between Australians and Americans.

Let's stay on point here. The unity of religion and law is a serious problem in Islam. There we, and Muslim friends of mine agree. How much contact have you directly had with Muslim families? That is a completely "non-trap question." A... What is the relevance of that? The most I have had to do with muslims is in Indonesia, where I met many wonderfully friendly muslims, and befriended one in particular, who a mate and I befriended after she was robbed on the bus we were travelling on. I know there are many decent muslims. This is not the issue is it? You try too hard. All you needed to tell me was the Indonesia part. Interesting. A... I wasn't trying anything, Adam. I'm wondering what point you are making, if any. I wish you'd just be straight up rather than always oblique and obscure. You haven't answered my question about the relevance of any relationships I've had with muslims.

But it is not seen as fascism by those who are attracted to it. It is seen as morally correct, and that doesn't emanate from what you've termed the fascist state. It emanates from Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah. It is an Islamic state, and we are in a position where we must attack it, if we wish to defend ourselves, precisely because it is choosing Islam. That is an inescapable fact.

Let's stay on point here. The unity of religion and law is a serious problem in Islam. There we, and Muslim friends of mine agree. How much contact have you directly had with Muslim families? That is a completely "non-trap question." A... What is the relevance of that? The most I have had to do with muslims is in Indonesia, where I met many wonderfully friendly muslims, and befriended one in particular, who a mate and I befriended after she was robbed on the bus we were travelling on. I know there are many decent muslims. This is not the issue is it?

It doesn't matter whether they are his or not (there is apparently some question over whether Muhammad even existed), it is what mainstream Islam has accepted that matters. Mainstream Islam treats Muhammad as if he did exist, as if he did say those things, and it has based Islamic jurisprudence on that acceptance. Currently Western leaders are taking great pains to separate Islam from the actions of the global jihadists, while the global Jihadists themselves explicitly ground their actions in mainstream Islam. Our leaders are lying to us. Whether or not they are lying to themselves too, I do not know, but I know that you cannot tackle the problem by lying about it.

Not disagreeing with you, but that really is only half the battle.

I just realized something important about your assumptions about Islam. Which Hadith is the one that you are referring to above? A... What are my assumptions, Adam? I think you will find them al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. There are many examples of Muhammad saying kill those who leave their religion. This is what the apostasy laws are based on. All mainstream schools of Islamic jurisprudence sanction death for apostasy. This is not something I have assumed, Adam. It is a fact.

The other side of the coin is the unreasonably high standard demanded of the West - a perfection that cannot be achieved. We should not have given flu to the natives. We should not have traded land for rugs. We should not have... and we should all feel collective guilt for it. Sadly many people have taken it on. Objective standards are the enemy. The thing is, the global jihadists, the violent and non-violent, have not attacked the integrity of Islam. When are many, many going to stand up? I don't think ever, in any effective way. It hasn't happened in 1400 years, so why will it suddenly happen now, unless enlightenment ideas have seeped into the minds of large numbers in the Islamic world. I don't think that's the case though. Michael cites Egypt as an example, but I don't see this as an example. Egypt is just as oppressive as ever towards non-Muslims, apostates and insulters of Islam. There was a rejection of the Muslim Brotherhoods wholesale brutality, but that is just a matter of degree, not principle.

No. I want to see the jihadists made impotent. An essential part of achieving that is a widespread understanding of their ideology. Political correctness, multiculturalism, and all the other PC crap that abounds will probably ensure that never happens. Their crappy ideology comes from Muhammad himself. This is what is being evaded, and a major reason why we are losing. Unless things change, we will lose. What's really going on is that fanatical muslims are seeking to reestablish the Caliphate and dominate the world under Islam in accordance with the teachings of their prophet Muhammad. This is not about abstract principles of fascism, but a specific kind of fascism. If people are incapable of recognising it, due to ignorance fostered and sustained by political correctness, then they cannot possibly fight it. They are like possums in the headlights. That's why we send soldiers to foreign countries to fight, while those soldiers hometowns become breeding grounds for the very enemy they've gone to other lands to fight. Sheer suicidal insanity. Hopefully the days of political correctness are numbered. It might be the case, given that more leftists appear to be waking up and joining the ranks of "the bigots". Sure, educate about the Muslim religion. I'm all for that. Those seeking to establish the Caliphate, however, are merely riding the Muslim horse. Shoot them off and the horse drinks and eats and sleeps and fucks the mares. The horse itself, however, is a figment of a Muslim imagination. Shoot the "horse" and there's 1.3 billion to shoot to go. Good luck with that! --Brant Merely riding the Muslim horse? What do you mean by that exactly? Are you suggesting they are not really Islamic? It should be amply clear to you that I am not out to destroy Islam. It would be absurd.

No. I want to see the jihadists made impotent. An essential part of achieving that is a widespread understanding of their ideology. Political correctness, multiculturalism, and all the other PC crap that abounds will probably ensure that never happens. Their crappy ideology comes from Muhammad himself. This is what is being evaded, and a major reason why we are losing. Unless things change, we will lose. What's really going on is that fanatical muslims are seeking to reestablish the Caliphate and dominate the world under Islam in accordance with the teachings of their prophet Muhammad. This is not about abstract principles of fascism, but a specific kind of fascism. If people are incapable of recognising it, due to ignorance fostered and sustained by political correctness, then they cannot possibly fight it. They are like possums in the headlights. That's why we send soldiers to foreign countries to fight, while those soldiers hometowns become breeding grounds for the very enemy they've gone to other lands to fight. Sheer suicidal insanity. Hopefully the days of political correctness are numbered. It might be the case, given that more leftists appear to be waking up and joining the ranks of "the bigots".

Ah, "the truth," quite an evasive and clever entity it is... So Richard... Careful, think this through before you answer... A... My comment should be pretty clear. It was not referring to "The Truth, but the truth about Islam. If you're suggesting to me that there's no such thing, that Islam's content is so amorphous as to conform to anyone and everyones wishes, then it's as good as saying that there is no Islam. However, that isn't the case. When Muhammad said in the Hadith, kill those who leave their (Islamic) religion, it is clearcut. I trust any muslim, or anyone, who doesn't act to evade or obscure those kinds of facts. A Muslim who does not do that, is an honest Muslim. I guess that is what I seek. Honesty. But it is in very short supply.

I've seen it termed, the soft bigotry of low expectations. I think it is true.

It's the nature abhors a vacuum principle. There is a vacuum everywhere you look. "Rachida Dati, the mayor of Paris' 7th arrondissement and the daughter of Algerian immigrants, called for an end to the "confounding of Islam and fundamentalism, as the French political class has done for too long." The paper on Friday apologized for what it called a "clumsy" question."

The welfare system is of course there for the takers, so why not.

The first news article: They can insist that all they want, but it will never change the fact. ISIS do speak for their religion. They implement what Muhammad taught them, without compromise. A backlash against those who think they do, such as myself? How does this help put an end to the problem within Islam? It doesn't. In fact, it achieves the opposite, by ensuring that the focus is taken away from the root of the problem. You don't fix a problem by avoiding a problem. Daily Boubakeur is either ignorant, or deceptive. Here is the verse he superficially refers to: “[005:032] On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.” Given that an excess in the land can be something as simple as drawing a Muhammad cartoon, the verse above is somewhat problematic. Useful though for fooling people who don't care to take a closer look or apply some critical thought. An outright lie. The head of France's largest mosque cannot help but know that the global jihadists back all of their actions by reference to Islam. Another shifting of the focus away from the actual problem, which again does nothing but perpetuate the problem. The cutting of necks: Sahih International: So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds. The fighting of other religions or nations: Qur'an (8:39) - “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down - hence abrogating what came before, which includes the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"Let there be no compulsion in religion...". There is of course nothing evil in Islam, because Muhammad and Allah are perfect. So when Muhammad command his followers to murder, or Allah commands his believers to fight until the world is all for Allah, by smiting necks and all, it is not evil. Allah cannot be evil. Unbelief is evil. Why? I love Ayn Rands judge and prepare to be judged. It is a valid question as to whether or not the Muslim community is giving an adequate response. This is not play school. It is murder, rape, terror, pillage, enslavement, misery and the utmost human despair because of these evil cunts. Muslims should be asking themselves whether or not they're giving and adequate and efficacious response. Lives are on the line and the future of Islam. More deflection. More self-pity over what people think of Islam. This article, as are the others, are full of it. And probably about as effective as Michele Obama's hashtag of "bring back our girls". Incidentally, Boko Haram have enslaved hundreds more women since then and continue to advance. Another who is either ignorant or deceptive. Islam does say go and fight. It also tells followers not to think for themselves, but to submit. '...and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.' (Surah Baqarah: 216) It would be interesting to read Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's - a man with a PHD in Islamic studies - response, if he gives one. He might just sneer at it. I have not seen this open letter, but it would be foolish to simply accept it as true opposition to ISIS. Of course it will fail to dent them. They need to show that what those pious muslims are doing is not what Muhammad and Allah want. They are incapable of this though. They're really tired? Boohoo! They can jump up and down all they like, but the Jihadists will simply sneer at them, and then blow them up if they can. What is needed is a real addressing of the problem. That is just crazy. ISIS will simply subside? How? Why? When? WTF????? Currently muslims are flocking to ISIS from around the world. ISIS is growing, even with the airstrikes. Another call for non-muslims to relax about Islam and not pressure anyone. Move along, nothing to see here. This is just downright sinister. In other words, adopt the correct politics or the situation will get worse. It is a threat.

They might or might not be. What I think is that it is foolish to simply assume that they are not. When I say they, I mean individual muslims. Not "The Muslims" as you put it. I trust anyone, muslim or otherwise, who doesn't shy away from the truth. There is a Muslim in Melbourne who recently critiqued his religion. I trust him, because he acknowledged the facts about his religion. He didn't try to sweep things that he didn't like under the carpet. There is a lot of that going on in those news articles linked to above. A lot of shifting the focus onto the supposed bigotry and unfairness of non-muslims. There is only one thing that can serve, and that is the likes of ISIS.

Because it is her faith that they are apparently abusing. What was very noticeable about those news links is how the responsibility is turned away from Muslims and onto Non-Muslims. The issue is ISIS and what it sees as the true Islam, not whether or not non-ISIS muslims feel pressured. The first link, btw, is full of outright lies. Taqqiya for whoever is willing to sup it up. You missed her point. It is NOT her faith they are abusing. What they say is their faith does not resemble what she knows to be hers. From her perspective, what they profess is no more similar to her faith than it is to Christianity. I didn't miss her point. It is her faith they are abusing, because they are doing in the name of her faith. If they are not abusing it, then what they are doing is what Islam teaches them to do. If a bunch of people were terrorising and murdering in the name of Objectivism, Objectivists would certainly need to step up to the plate to put an end to it and make it crystal clear that those peoples actions have nothing to do with Objectivism. If you value something, but don't ever fight for it, then do you really deserve it. Maybe, but if you lose it then you perhaps get what you deserve.

Because it is her faith that they are apparently abusing. What was very noticeable about those news links is how the responsibility is turned away from Muslims and onto Non-Muslims. The issue is ISIS and what it sees as the true Islam, not whether or not non-ISIS muslims feel pressured. The first link, btw, is full of outright lies. Taqqiya for whoever is willing to sup it up.