John Donohue

okay i went over there. You are challenged by Peter Taylor in the same way I am challenging you and you've got nothing except to go totalized over the bad bad state of the state that currently exists. Well, that is not an anwer. Anarchism is void. Peter is already more than squashing you. No need for me to pile on.

Russell, So do you give your new science for eliminating initiation of force over there?

Selene: "...impose..." (typical anarchist hyper totalizing) I guess the dog ate your homework.

Selene:Adam Politics is a normative science. Just because proper government is correct for man qua man does not mean that the current government is acting proper! And...is that the best you can do? Some overkill on some border somewhere? Also would you care to submit the balance of all the research you did on all the peace and security you have under even the current foul setup we have, as compared to the subsistence living, raging violence and gang warfare of anarchism?

russell you have not responded to my challenge to lay out the new science of human transformation that will make initiation of force disappear from the face of the earth. Do you decline? Without a answer to the above, the concept of "anarchism" is a fraud. With it, the need to assert that "no government is necessary" is trivial. Meanwhile you restate your formulation: "...I still argue that “governments” are not a collective entity separate from the individuals that comprise it. That point stands alone.' "governments are not a collective entity." what does that even mean? Do you mean that a "government" is not a human being? Do you mean that no nation has ever had a government? Do you mean that a government has no rights? I would be glad to cut through and stipulate that a government is an institution established by citizens of a nation imbued with a monopoly on the use of force and ultimate jursdiction over the rectification of rights violations. I would hope you would stipulate back that such things actually do exist.entity separate from the individuals that comprise it. That point stands alone.'

You wish for the withering away of the state, just as dreamed of by Marx. Until it does, and until humans reach the state of mind where it does not happen that they initiate force against each other, if ever, a powerful but limited government is proper for the protection of life liberty and property of individuals. If you deny this truth, you are faced with two scenarios you most likely would not like mentioned: 1) in a world where violation continues to take place, somehow wishing there were no protection for the violated is to promote atrocity; 2) if you oppose government (while awaiting your ideal human condition to arrive) then there is nothing to stop any number of groups from 'forming' their own violent enforcement units. This is also known as gang warfare. The actual condition wished for by anarchists is void by self-definition. It is deliberately impossible, made so in the same way as 'The Big Lie' so no one will notice the bald reality: there is no human alive that can demonstrate a path, a real world practical path, from the current state of human condition to one in which no government is necessary. If there were, THAT would be the content of your philsophy -- how humanity can be transformed to that condition of mind and spirit -- not the constant harping about the evil of government. So please lay out the new science of human transformation that will make initiation of force disappear from the face of the earth.

Who would abolish government? The Government? Who would prevent a group of people getting together and starting up a government? The Government?