Libertarian Muslim

Welcome to OL Adonis:

Geez that is so gay.

Haha. Actually that's my one of my names and what most people know me by, I'm half Greek and half Turkish you see.

At any rate, you mentioned that you are new to New Zealand, where do you hail from?

I was born and raised in Melbourne, Australia. I came to NZ after a long trip of one year and two months living, working and traveling in the Middle East. I am actually here for university studies, work and politics.

Are you familiar with Ayn?

I have to be entirely honest with you and say that I am not familiar with Ayn! I am a little embarrassed by that but do intend on researching Ayn vigorously within the next few days to see what the ideas are about.

Additionally, what do you do professionally?

For my monetary income I work for an internet service provider doing technical support. I will also start my own business soon importing 100% Natural herbal soaps, creams and perfumes made in Lebanon and selling them here in the weekend markets. In addition to that, I will start University study in March.

I also like to do community work and intend to restart my work in interfaith dialogue and prison chaplaincy here in New Zealand

Adonis,

Let me offer you a warm welcome to OL. I believe your words and mine have preceded us, so there is no need to repeat them at this point.

I would like to make things easier for OL readers, especially those who have had no personal contact with devout Muslims. I normally would not go into this, but nothing happens without a context.

Michael, thank you very much for your kind and warm welcome. I appreciate your candidness and will address your points below.

1. I personally am a supporter of Israel. I want to make that clear.

I also have a great deal of empathy for the Palestinian people (a descendant in Brazil even taught me the basics of motion picture making and actually hired me as I learned it), but I lean in the Israeli direction with respect to the hostilities. My position is my own position, not that of some other OL posters. At any rate, I support Israel for many good reasons we could later discuss if you are so inclined. But I sincerely hope that your participation here will not prompt a descent into the typical yelling back and forth over this issue that I see constantly. From what I have read from you, I doubt it will between you and me.

You can be sure that I have no intention in yelling back and forth, I have much better things to do with my time than be on a forum and argue like this. Perhaps when I was 18-22 I'd have enjoyed it more, but now I just don't have the time nor interest in doing so. I wont insult you for your beliefs and am happy to engage in any dialogue.

I will also state that I am not a supporter of Israel and believe that it has no right to exist in its current form without a peace agreement with the Palestinians. However having said that I am not for killing Jews or any human being for that matter because in the Qur'an God tells us:

"For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth." Qur'an 5:32

I believe the matter of Zionism and Israel to be about justice and racism. I would be overwhelmed with joy if Israel were to just accept the Arab Peace Initiative which I believe is fair and just as a two state solution.

If however Israel were not willing to accept such a deal and believed that it could continue the current and longstanding 62 years of brutal policies of low-intensity genocide against the Palestinians simply because of its military might. Then however unlikely, if it were ever invaded successfully, it would have no leg to stand on in terms of being a state and I would support its complete dismantling and the expulsion of any Zionist not willing to live side by side as equals with the Arabs from those lands.

But as you said, perhaps this isn't the thread for such a discussion and would be happy to discuss it more in the future.

2. Just as I am interested in getting the message of liberty to the Muslim world and am willing to learn and understand how to go about that, it would be really helpful if you started in this tiny part of the world (OL) by giving your evaluation of Islamist terrorism, preferably without qualifications of the type that insinuates that if we were not over there, they would not be over here.

I can give my evaluation based on my knowledge and experience and would be happy to do so. What questions do oyu have?

I'll start the ball rolling by giving my view. I believe when industry leaders get in cahoots with government officials, a distortion of capitalism ensues and monkey-shines reign supreme. Then this is presented to the world as capitalism and promoted or combated, depending on which side you are on. I consider this a false dichotomy and say that both industry and government are copulating when they get in bed together.

Agreed

As I used to say in Brazil when people complained that the USA was buying Brazil, "If that is true, then some Brazilians are selling it." I hold this is the case with the meddling in Middle East affairs I read you mentioned on Solo Passion. I am totally against government intervention into the economy regardless of who does it. And I am totally against market people sucking up to government people and asking for favors.

Agreed some more.

On a government level, I am generally against the USA government interventions in Middle East governments. The only excuse for that would have been to clean up the mess the Nazis made, but after studying this, I discovered that we actually hired Muslim Nazi sympathizers after WWII to combat communism. We screwed up big time.

I agree also, and do believe that intervention is an absolute necessity.

Although I have never heard of these so called Muslim Nazi sympathizers hired to combat communism. Can you provide me with more information please?

But I am also against the privileges the Middle East governments granted to foreign companies. The business should have happened between Middle East companies and foreign companies.

It's the only way these governments stay in power, as you said the government is in cahoots with the corporations and if their puppets in the Middle East, the tyrants and monarchs that they are don't play ball, they get overthrown and replaced with their cousins or sons.

What can be done with the situation that has developed? The fact is that the situation is now a complicated mess with plenty of blame to spread around on all sides. But there is one thing that is not complicated.

I unqualifiedly condemn the terrorsim practiced by Islamist fundamentalists. It's disgusting. Actually I unqualifiedly condemn terrorsim from any group whatsoever. I mention Islamist fundamentalists at the moment because of the obvious.

Terrorism historically been recognized as a tactic in war, that of using bombings, assassinations of civilian infrastructure and leaders to try and get a desired result. It can be perpetrated by an individual, group or a government. In the past, terrorists used to limit civilian casualties by bomb threats etc. Now however it seems to be a different game where civilians are directly targeted and killed.

I might also state that the US, UK and other Western nations did indeed train their special forces and intelligence services in terrorism during the Cold War so that in the event of it becoming a 'hot' war, they could try and cripple the USSR's ability to fight. This also did include bombings of civilian infrastructure and assassinations and they didn't care what the civilian cost would be in such a situation.

I have no doubt that the same Western nations still do train their intelligence services and special forces in such tactics and also don't doubt their willingness to use them in conflict.

I unqualifiedly condemn any attack on any non combatant. It goes against Islamic and any moral teachings and ultimately is just counterproductive.

Also, there is a frequent argument put forth by those against Islam that nonviolent Muslims do not speak out against the violent ones, thus they are silent supporters. As I have read you mention your disagreements with the Wahhabi version and your disapproval of terrorism, a good strong statement to this effect right at the start here on OL would probably help to keep some tensions down. And it would be something to point to if false accusations ever start.

Actually the majority of Muslims do speak out openly against the extremists. They are despised everywhere throughout the Muslim world and they have to operate in strict secrecy whether they are in the West or in the Middle East. I might also state that Saudi Arabia (which I DO despise) is against terrorism and have to state that no matter how repulsive I find their ideas, the majority of Wahhabis condemn the actions of Al Qaeda and other groups, thinking that they are against Islam.

I have to also clarify something.

I'm not against violence whatsoever. I believe that sometimes, in the pursuit of justice after exercising all other diplomatic means a person may need to resort to violence to attain it. Thus, it may be completely necessary and justified to use violence. I am however, as stated above against violence being used against non-combatants.

I also wholeheartedly support anyone's right to self defence providing they do not transgress and become oppressors themselves.

I believe that violence is not a one sized fits all solution to any problem. Contrary to what many say, Islam abhors violence and Qur'anic teachings and the example of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh definitely show us that peace is better than violence.

3. I don't know if this would be possible, but I am interested in factual identification of some sensitive issues. I am actually interested in your views and experience. I have some ideas about the religious experience in general and I am interested in seeing how they stand up to the Muslim experience. This is not in the ballpark of preconception. It is more about psychology. I am sure you might have some of the same curiousities about Objectivism in areas of your own interest.

I am more than happy to answer any questions that you may have no matter how sensitive they are.

So, without speaking for others here on OL (especially since independent thinking is one of the virtues I try to encourage on this forum), my own interactions with you, on my part, will always come from a posture of "identify first, then evaluate." Parallel to this will be a posture of "you have every right to believe as you wish, as do I." And even further, I might disagree with some your views, especially regarding metaphysical fundamentals, etc., but I will not mock them. I hope to receive the same.

Thank you, you most certainly will receive the same respect and conduct from myself.

EDIT: I hope you don't mind me calling you Adonis. Please call me Michael.

Not at all! Thank you Michael.

Hello everyone,

I must say that I am both quite surprised (pleasantly) and flattered at the creation of this thread, to be honest I'd never heard of this forum until I was pointed there by Mr. William Scott Scherk on the SOLO forum.

So

I suspect he is Sufi from what I have read so far, but I have only dabbled in Islamic readings—enough to write some things and set up this section, but nothing I consider deep—so I might be wrong. In fact, if he is Sufi, it's almost comical watching him being accused of stuff more appropriate to Wahhabi-based Islamist fundamentalism. On a Christian level, it would be akin to accusing a Unitarian or a Catholic of constantly speaking in tongues and snake-handling.

------------

I admit, I might be wrong, but based on that SOLOP thread, I judge this person to have good character. If he finds peace and purpose in Islam, but lets others find theirs as they see fit, I see no problem at all with that. Nor do I see any problem if he tries to promote his ideas through discussion and presentation. After all, that's what the marketplace of ideas is for.

Mr Kelly you do me great honor with your kind words. I must clarify though that I don't classify myself as a Sufi. I won't say much more than that about what I do believe though because I wouldn't want people to start assuming that my particular school of thought alone is capable of the type of Libertarian ideas that I've displayed, rather I believe that it is Islam as a whole that does. I also never claim to be anything else other than a Muslim and detest sectarianism.

I’ve got to say though, the “Muhammad, may peace be upon him” line he keeps repeating is...off putting and even comical.

I'm sorry that you find it off putting. But that is the etiquette in my religion and out of the immense love and respect that I have for the Prophet Muhammad yes, peace be upon him. I will indeed say it almost as often as I say his name. Although you may see it shortened to pbuh or the arabic equivalent sawas.

I've read that thread, but I must say that I have not much sympathy for that Adonis fellow. Perhaps he personally won't hurt a fly, but he's continually dodging the embarrassing questions and trying to weasel out of the contradictions and the unsavory sayings of Muhammad, and thereby in fact sanctioning all the bad things of islam. He deserves to be slaughtered, of course not literally, but intellectually, with regard to his arguments (so don't quote me out of context...).

I haven't dodged any questions Dragonfly. I've answered every question to the best of my knowledge using the evidence at my disposal. I'm sorry if you don't find them satisfactory but at the end of the day, if I say something is not from the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him's mouth it is because that there are serious issues that indicate the sanad which is the chain of narration is not reliable or authentic. Then I mean just that. Hadith is a science and not something simple. The whole problem with this type of Wahhabi beliefs started when people, not educated in the science of hadith started thinking that they could interpret them and put value on hadiths that were not authentic just to promote their own perverted ideas.

Hi Michael,

I think you're over stating your case. I agree that Perigo's piece is inflammatory and the use of derogatory terms such as "maggot" are unhelpful, but I don't think that Mr. Vlahos is being entirely honest in his characterization of Islam. Many of the claims Vlahos makes in his post --- the one to which you linked --- simply aren't true. He makes Islam look much more benign than it really is or was at the time of Muhammad. I agree that some of the responses to his post were unnecessarily inflammatory. Some were obscene. But, some were quite reasonable, making use of facts and evidence. I didn't read the entire thread.

At any rate, I ran across a piece on PJTV about some of the crimes committed in the name of Islam in this country --- the USA --- in 2009. People might find it interesting.

Darrell

Mr Hougen, would you care to tell me where I was being dishonest?

BTW. I also tried to watch that pjtv.com video but it doesn't seem to work, I'll try at a net cafe and respond later.

Great find Michael, though couldn't energy be used to, eh, recruit the fellow for a site that doesn't hate his guts?

Sherk put a link on the thread, I’ll be happy to chat with him. Adonis, that is. From what I’ve seen, Sherk’s pretty weird, I don’t know what to make of him.

However, I think Adonis must have been itching for a fight to go to SLOP, it makes me think of Jesus’s reply about dining with tax collectors, you go to where the sinners are. Maybe he didn’t realize what kind of terrain he was parachuting into:

Thank you for your invitation Ninth Doctor.

I have to say I didn't actually go onto the SOLO website looking for a fight at all, you see I'm quite new to New Zealand and as a Libertarian I want to help promote the ideas of freedom so I got in touch with the Libertarianz party here. Then on the site Mark Hubbard pointed me toward the SOLO site. Now to be fair, I didn't just go looking for anti Islam posts on there, in fact I didn't expect there to be any. I just saw one saying 'Death to Islam' and the name Lindsay Perigo sounded familiar so I looked at it.

It was only when I realized that Perigo was one of the founders and a former leader of the Libertarianz that I was so disgusted with his attitude and felt the need to respond to them. I was very disappointed that he was so arrogant and ungentlemanly in his behavior and made it quite clear that it just seemed like he spoke that way to make himself feel superior and important and as a form of ego-masturbation. He didn't actually go and respond to the content of my points and instead was just sarcastic and used profane insults.

Thus far, nothing that the people on the site have brought up is new to me and I do believe that thus far I have addressed their points with clarifications of the Islamic opinion. As I did say however, I am not there to try and convert people, just to clarify the Islamic opinion and ensure my rights aren't being infringed. Had Lindsay not been a founder of the Libertarianz party I wouldn't have wasted my time on it because it's the same old nonsense every time and it gets a bit old.