Peregrine777

Mike, an argument can be made that an *inherent* feature of "human population dynamics" is that those who possess the greatest entrepreneurial/rentier power INEVITABALY grow tendrils which reach deep into the governing class. It's a simple matter of "like attracts like" Those with power wish to consolidate with those who will help to aggregate more power. Think Oligarchy. Which is basically the history of the world. Hey, I'm not one to argue with superiority or progress -- unless I'm one of those being trampled underfoot in the process. Ya know, individualism and all that. The Oist/Libertard worship of businessmen basically serves to entrench this intractable historical relationship. In other words, most Oists/Libertarians are Useful Idiots -- pawns -- for the elites. Most of us will never be captains of state or CEO's. But we like to dream we will. Does it bother you that the elites who encourage mass immigration to garner more Democratic votes, or cheap nanny and lawn service, are safely ensconced in their gated communities far from the social pathology of their policies? You know they send THEIR kids to private schools. Me? I'm a blue collar worker who is hit hard by such open border policies. The real question comes down to where you are on the spectrum. I suppose if I was an old money blueblood in New England my POV would be rather different. Regardless, the population replacement policies of the elites is changing the character of this country, and many of us in the middle are feeling the pinch. Oh, hey, eager immigrants mean cheaper labor -- FOR THE BUSINESSMEN. Nevermind that my wages drop, my standard of living drops, and I am overrun by those with rather more different sensibilities concerning social and interpersonal conduct. We have a greater GDP! YAY LIBERTARIANISM! So yeah, if all that matters to you is MAKING THAT GREEN, then by all means, sell your country out. But if you have any inkling of an AESTHETIC sense for a social and communitarian way of life that once made this country great, then you will think twice.

I'd call it a mixture of paleo and neo. It is NOT Pat Buchanan. --Brant Where do you get this? To my mind, the distinction between paleo and neo is in the fidelity (or lack thereof) to a distinct American sociocultural tradition. We may split hairs over what that tradition constitutes exactly, but the neoconservative strain seems to me to be yet another attempt by another Elite to draw America in a particular direction which benefits them to the detriment of the vast Country Class: http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the/print Neoconservatism is largely a Jewish phenomenon.

More accurately, it is paleoconservatism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservatism Although some of the lurkers might be more amenable to Paleolibertarianism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolibertarianism

Relocation is always on my mind, but I can't escape the larger issue that if other people followed my lead, we would simply be cowards hiding away in smaller and smaller enclaves while the America we once knew turned into Brazil where a cadre of elites live high on the hog, the middle class is dispossesed in a hellmatrix of irrelevancy, and social pathology continues unabated among the vast, churning underclass. If you had any sense of loyalty to the American Dream, you would agree with me. Sadly however, it appears most Objectivists would rather retreat into solipsistic idealism on internet boards while the social fabric is torn asunder. "Fine philosophies reflect more the need to feel good than how anyone has lived their lives." -- Christopher S. Hyatt

Ah, finally, a Voice of Reason in this thread. To my mind, the immigration issue is THE nexus point which will determine whether Oist/Libertarian thought ever gains traction. Regrettably, current trends seem to indicate it will instead be doomed to irrelevancy and the dustbin of history as the Other (with their rather more "collectivist" notions of racial/ethnic identity and shared history) overwhelm and swamp the jewel of the West with their superior <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_fertility_rate">TFRs.</a> While we can pick nits over the excesses of Judeo-Christian history, the fact remains that the cultural high-water mark of, say, 1950s or 1960s America is a pastiche of many different but *related* streams of thought unique to white, European, Christian (broadly defined) culture. Quite distinct from the immigrants du jour and their shibboleths. Our "irrational" Christian heritage is inextricably bound up with many of our notions of what consitutes the Good, insofar as it relates to the social fabric, community, and interpersonal behavior. Even GHS of of ATCOG fame recognizes the contribution Xianity made with its emphasis on the sanctity of the Individual Soul. Like it or not -- the comfortable middle to upper-middle class lifestyle many on this board enjoy is a result of an amalgam of White/Christian/Eurocentric history. Much like the fish who "knows not of the water in which it swims", it is a common Oist/Libertarian conceit to flip the bird to Tradition and Religion never realizing such things enabled their very existence. Let's give credit where credit is due, K? K. Although I suppose if a small minority of intellectuals are vocal enough, and wave their copies of Atlas Shrugged hard enough, we can give birth to a New Renaissance of individualism which gloriously transcends all the backwards, tribal, irrational habits of other cultures and thereby welcome them in to our world with open arms. Nevermind that such habits constitute the very CORE of the Others' identities, and served them well in overcoming the hardships endemic to their own life cirumstances. We will all bow in paean to Reason & Rationality. Eventually. Somehow. I never thought I'd see the day when Objectivists became indistinguishable from One World, One Government progressives. Let me ask you folks a question. Would you not feel a sense of defiance if some warring country attempted to ethnically cleanse the U.S.? Surely, their Initiation of Force in a gambit to replace the population with their own would be met with fierce resistance. Then why do you mighty warriors collapse into cowardly appeasement when the same ethnic cleansing happens through sheer numerical displacement? Even that wouldn't be so bad if it was merely a matter of different-looking people ASSIMILATING into the American Melting Pot. But no, what often happens is that when an encroaching population reaches a critical mass, they merely continue the habits and postures they are most familar with and feel comfortable with. I am an unfortunate denizen of South Florida where mass immigration has turned my city into what Tom Tancredo righteously referred to as a Third World country. A typical free-marketer argument is that no one can gain a competitive advantage by discriminating. The idea is that the discriminator would be undercut by those who open their wares to any and all comers. But that's not how it works in practice! Here in Miami, if you don't speak Spanish, you cannot ask for directions, you can't ask a salesperson questions about their products, and you are SHUT OUT. How can this be? Surely Anglos would gain a competitive advantage by employing bilingual employees. But I'll tell you -- I am half-Hispanic and I have been able to worm into the belly of the beast, and the prevailing attitude is "Why should we accomodate the Anglos? We have enough of Our Gang here to make them accomodate US." If that doesn't make your blood boil then you are truly one of those self-hating, self-immolating whites the Right denigrates. Don't even get me started on the politics here. It's a Banana Republic where backroom deals, nepotism and favoritism reign supreme. The whole notion of disinterested fidelity to abstract principles like the rule of law is a joke when you come from a country where corruption is considered the norm for those who are "connected." But hey, let 'em all in, since we are believers in the American Way. The American Melting Pot has become and will become just another Balkanization. NB: none of this even touches on the topic of Islamofascism. That's another ball of wax. Well, my six-pack has been killed so I shall stop here. P.S. To any Dawkins fans out there: http://vdare.com/sailer/nepotism.htm Breathe deep, the gathering gloom.

OK, I confess. I regularly sacrifice babies at the alter to Rush hidden in my attic. I shall consider it. Although, I suspect any further elucidation of my non-Rush insights might not go over so well here. I'm afraid the reference is lost on me so this will have to suffice: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/music/awkward-headbangers-rejoice-its-finally-cool-to-like-rush/article1592653/ Oh really? Now look what you've started. I hope you're pleased with yourself young man!

Au contraire my time-travelling friend. While it is true that my esteem for the band -- their music, anyways -- has fallen over the years (and is certainly different than your fanboi caricature of yours truly) the fact remains that I still consider them a unique and valuable cultural phenomenon. Certainly an indelible part of my adolescent development. It's just that, in this case, I am somewhat familiar with Bob's temperament from way back in the a.p.o days, and I feared that his blossoming interest in the Holy Trinity would be cut short by a possible brush with some of the more, ah, questionable moments in the Rush oeuvre. I mean, imagine if he had stumbled across something like "Hand Over Fist" or "Nobody's Hero" before getting to the Good Stuff? I imagine a Harrrumph and a Bah Humbug on his part -- and the dream dies stillborn. I had to pipe up because I consider it my civic duty to ensure that everyone's Rush Experience™ is a safe and pleasant one. Think of me as a Geddy Appleseed, nurturing seeds wherever I go. I'm all aboot caring. Now then, sorry for breaking into this otherwise Significant and Meaningful discussion. Carry on.

Bob, I must warn you: Rush is a Canadian band, and over the years the sort of limp-wristed progressivism common to that cloistered part of the world eventually infected their music in way that would make an ornery misanthrope like yourself sick with saccharin overdose. You know -- notions of interpersonal goodwill and citizen-of-the-worldism. That sort of thing. I suppose it's an unavoidable aspect of growing old. I'm just saying this to inure you to the inevitable disillusionment. However, that doesn't mean you can't enjoy them when they were at their most Randist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_7I5Ozq2rE