Alfonso Jones

The amount of venom that Rand spewed at libertarians is at once curious and disturbing. I sometimes wonder if a lot of it had to do with the fact that libertarianism was (and is) a broadly based movement that Rand could not control.

A similar thing happened with Murray Rothbard, who, in later life, went after a lot of dissenting libertarians (many of whom were Rothbardians) with a vengeance.

George,

She couldn't stand not being able to control the libertarian movement.

I think Rand and Rothbard were similar enough personalities that their ego duel and ensuing feud were close to inevitable.

Robert Campbell

http://www.voluntary...kissues/005.pdf

I posted a link to this article before, on a blog entry about Gandhi. Published in 1983, most of it deals with Rothbard, and it put the final nail in the coffin of our friendship. Murray and I never spoke after this, except briefly at a memorial for Roy Childs held in New York.

I am posting this link again because the article deals, in part, with the issue that you raised.

Ghs

Powerful piece, George. For those who are interested, Rothbard's original article to which you are responding can be found at

http://mises.org/journals/lf/1983/1983_03.pdf

Bill P

It's not as if no one heard of the NOIF principle before her.

The NOIF principle?

"NOIF" Neil; What does that mean? Inquiring minds want to know.

Just in case anyone doesn't realize that there's surely some teasing going on:

No

Initiation

Of

Foce

as perturbed by a transposition error.

Bill P

Resentment of the Japanese still runs deep for many in China. Even for those who are a full generation or more removed from WWII. (Born in the 1980s, for example.)

Bill P

The grace of the situation is merely to let Chris re-state his case. The pie can be cut several ways. Let him definitively cut it the way he wants to eat and be it.

--Brant

Of course. I think such options are always open.

Bill P

Folks,

I know Chris Baker and I know that he's not a sociopath.

I don't believe he hates Jews, either.

But does anyone genuinely not care whether

Kyrgyzstan gets nuked?

North Korea gets nuked?

Slovenia gets nuked?

Equatorial Guinea gets nuked?

Tonga gets nuked?

Robert

I would far prefer living in a society where people did care (though there would be doubtless be discussions, some of them heated, about what sort of actions those evaluations might lead to) than in a society where the dominant attitude was to brazenly declare indifference to the loss of human life.

Bill P

Good to hear of this. I'll be looking forward to hopefully seeing the text of the speech on OL.

Bill P

Becky, Rachel, and I motored up to Sherman Oaks this evening to hear Barbara speak, and it was well worth the aggravation of L.A.'s perenially turgid traffic. Wonderful speech!

Duncan Scott videotaped the presentation (possibly also the question-answer period), and I expect it will be made commercially available before long as part of his Objectivist History project.

I'm not going to summarize the talk here, just say that Barbara's thoughts were clear, well-organized, and sobering. This talk and her recent one "Objectivism and Rage" ought to be included in any anthology of her best writing/thinking.

REB

Good to hear!

Regards,

Bill P

It turns out that Leonard Peikoff has had one more thing to say, within the last year, about biographies of Ayn Rand.

By implication, at least.

From his podcast of August 24, 2009 (1:40 to 2:17):

Now, I have another question from the same person, about two individual Objectivists in a public profile, and in a long question, he wants to know, uh, what I think of them—do I agree with them?

And my answer is, uh, uhh, I thoroughly approve of the intellectual battle waged by Jim Valliant and Diana Hsieh [struggles with pronunciation]. I admire the work of both so, to the the extent that I know it.

Robert Campbell

Robert; Do you find this surprising? I don't.

It's disappointing, though not surprising.

Bill P

I believe the lectures were by Peter Schwartz, the Madame Defarge of Objectivism.

Ghs

Now, that's funny!!!

Bill P

The last book I attempted to write without sufficient funding was The Disciplines of Liberty. This was to be a historical survey of five intellectual disciplines -- political philosophy, history, economics, sociology, and social psychology -- as analyzed in terms of their contributions to our understanding of freedom. After around eight years of little or no funding, and writing sporadically as I could get the time, I finally gave up; and I'm still sitting on many hundreds of pages of manuscript and detailed notes that I will probably never be able to use.

In the final analysis the continuous frustration was not worth it, and I'm not about to repeat that mistake. So I now live by the motto: Show me the money!

Ghs

Well put, George. I've written lots of papers (academic) and many practitioner type articles also, but I've learned over the years that it is best to have a customer who is largely committed to the endeavor before putting forth the effort. As a result of this, most things I've written in the last 10 years have been invited papers.

I also have a horror story, however - of a book which I and a colleague wrote about 15 years ago without sufficient commitment from the publisher, only to find that the book never saw the light of day. Fortunately, I've been able to recover some return on my effort by mining my portions of the manuscript for other publishing purposes, but never enough to justify all the effort.

Regards,

Bill P

Bill, I should take the time to read that essay again. Rand herself admits that such a change is unlikely. Is it more likely now than it was back then?

What do you do when the country starts arresting people on phony charges such as what happened recently in Michigan?

What do you do when American citizens can be tortured and then convicted of crimes like Jose Padilla?

What do you do when a Canadian citizen like Peter Watts is harassed at the border by some American goons when he is trying to return to Canada?

What do you do when a guy can have his guns confiscated because he is "disgruntled"?

Chris -

Consider that Rand published that essay in the Ayn Rand Letter, published dated December 6, 1971. I think it's broadly speaking been downhill since, with some progress on some fronts during the Reagan administration.

Bill P

Oh, yes, the wonderful "progress" during the Reagan administration: the tax bite went up, government spending went up, the federal deficit went up, the War on Drugs was boosted enormously, and millions of dollars were squandered on a task force that recommended a federal crackdown on "pornography" despite the fact that the information the task force itself gathered together made it clear that such a step would be both unnecessary and counter-productive. On the other hand, Reagan was able to claim credit for the airline, trucking, and FCC deregulation actually undertaken by figures like Jimmy Carter and Teddy Kennedy. And he was also able to claim credit for the implosion of the Soviet Union that Ludwig von Mises had pointed out sixty years earlier was inescapable for purely economic reasons, irrespective of what any third rate blowhard "actor" might assert on behalf of his mindless military policies.

What a brilliant record of achievement! I am awestruck!

JR

JR -

I fear you responded before carefully reading what I wrote.

I said "some progress on some fronts." I did not say or imply anything like "a brilliant record of achievement."

Bill P

Calm your fears, Bill. I understood what you wrote perfectly. Where I do seem to have gone wrong is in supposing that heavy sarcasm would be an effective way of conveying to you my reaction to what you wrote. I'll try to make it a little plainer. I regard Ronald Reagan as the worst U.S. president since Abraham Lincoln, with the possible exceptions of George W. Bush, Woodrow Wilson, Harry S. Truman, Lyndon Baines Johnson, and Richard Milhous Nixon. I can think of nothing - absolutely nothing - he did as constituting "progress," if, by "progress" in this context, we mean discernible steps in the direction of smaller, less intrusive government and greater individual liberty.

JR

So, I will assume you are now writing what you mean. You regard Reagan, and all of those listed, as being each being clearly worse than:

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Barack Hussein Obama

That's clear enough, though I certainly disagree with finding Reagan worse than FDR or BHO.

Bill P

Bill, I should take the time to read that essay again. Rand herself admits that such a change is unlikely. Is it more likely now than it was back then?

What do you do when the country starts arresting people on phony charges such as what happened recently in Michigan?

What do you do when American citizens can be tortured and then convicted of crimes like Jose Padilla?

What do you do when a Canadian citizen like Peter Watts is harassed at the border by some American goons when he is trying to return to Canada?

What do you do when a guy can have his guns confiscated because he is "disgruntled"?

Chris -

Consider that Rand published that essay in the Ayn Rand Letter, published dated December 6, 1971. I think it's broadly speaking been downhill since, with some progress on some fronts during the Reagan administration.

Bill P

Oh, yes, the wonderful "progress" during the Reagan administration: the tax bite went up, government spending went up, the federal deficit went up, the War on Drugs was boosted enormously, and millions of dollars were squandered on a task force that recommended a federal crackdown on "pornography" despite the fact that the information the task force itself gathered together made it clear that such a step would be both unnecessary and counter-productive. On the other hand, Reagan was able to claim credit for the airline, trucking, and FCC deregulation actually undertaken by figures like Jimmy Carter and Teddy Kennedy. And he was also able to claim credit for the implosion of the Soviet Union that Ludwig von Mises had pointed out sixty years earlier was inescapable for purely economic reasons, irrespective of what any third rate blowhard "actor" might assert on behalf of his mindless military policies.

What a brilliant record of achievement! I am awestruck!

JR

JR -

I fear you responded before carefully reading what I wrote.

I said "some progress on some fronts." I did not say or imply anything like "a brilliant record of achievement."

Bill P

Bill, I should take the time to read that essay again. Rand herself admits that such a change is unlikely. Is it more likely now than it was back then?

What do you do when the country starts arresting people on phony charges such as what happened recently in Michigan?

What do you do when American citizens can be tortured and then convicted of crimes like Jose Padilla?

What do you do when a Canadian citizen like Peter Watts is harassed at the border by some American goons when he is trying to return to Canada?

What do you do when a guy can have his guns confiscated because he is "disgruntled"?

Chris -

Consider that Rand published that essay in the Ayn Rand Letter, published dated December 6, 1971. I think it's broadly speaking been downhill since, with some progress on some fronts during the Reagan administration.

Bill P

Bill P wrote:

These are philosophical issues. The philosophy we need is a conceptual equivalent of America's sense of life. To propagate it, would require the hardest intellectual battle. But isn't that a magnificent goal to fight for?

end quote

Great sentiments Bill and I second them.

Another area of Philosophy is Politics. I would leave "51 votes needed to pass" in place until as much as can be repealed of Socialism is completed. Then as a final step, a Randian Tea Party/Republican majority will plug the loop holes in Congressional procedures and in the Constitution.

Barbara's mention of the farthest and last outpost of America as a destination is intriguing. I know Israel is composed of the secular and the religious, but culturally I wonder if Barbara would feel as stifled as when Ayn Rand lived with her family in Chicago?

Plus, Israel is so vulnerable. Today, a former minister of defense is saying Israel will attack Iran before November. Will that attack bring in other Arab nations into a larger war?

Hopefully not; but first, and also hopefully, Israel will manage to destroy Iran's nuclear and non-nuclear military might. Imagine a war that stretches on and on. President Bush after 911 is looking mighty good right now.

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

Please note that those sentiments were written by Ayn Rand, as my post indicated (and, in case anyone missed it, my post wraps back to the one starting off this thread).

Regards,

BIll P

If America continued its insane rush toward collectivism, and I felt I had to leave this country I have always loved, I'd want to live where technological creativity, medical innovation, scientific (including nuclear) achievement, together with an accelerating movement away from socialism and toward capitalism, would hold out the possibility that the values most precious to me would not vanish from he earth.

I would move to Israel.

Barbara

I'm reminded of what Rand said in "Don't Let It Go, II" in the AYn Rand Letter:

Bill P

So in this respect, I can echo George:: Lighten up, everybody. Don't turn to jello when you see something in Rand you know to be wrong.

Barbara

Well put, Barbara.

There is so much that was good in Ayn Rand, and worthy of emulation. It is an insult to the best of what she was to imitate her in her weaknesses (or to to fake reality by pretending she had no weaknesses).

Bill P

If you'll settle for CDs instead of LPs, they are listed by Amazon as being available, at:

http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Efficient-Thinking-CD-set/dp/1579704867/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269732470&sr=8-5

Bill P

It's already been done in North Korea.

--Brant

now all they have to do is move there.

Well put, Brant. Many of the advocates of these "lights out" events would find an ideologically friendly environment (in so many ways) in North Korea.

Bill P

For economic freedom based on

- personal choice

- voluntary exchange coordinated by markets

- freedom to enter and compete in markets

- protection of persons and their property

from aggression by others.

The US is tied for 8th place.

I may have overlooked it - but did you give a link for this ranking? I'd be interested to see what countries rank above the US.

Bill P

As Churchill said at a another very dark time. "Never give in, Never, Never give in."

If you live in Virginia, Florida or Idaho; support your state attorney general and ask your state attorney general to join their suit against the bill.

If you live in a district of a Congressman make their Easter-Passover recess a living hell.

That's the spirit! Never surrender.

Bill P

I assume you mean "leave" in a permanent sense. I am living in Shanghai, China, and have been here part-time since 2003, full-time since 2006.

I don't see leaving the USA (as in abandoning citizenship) as appropriate. There is still hope - - - and where will you find greater freedom, particularly freedom of speech, than in the USA?

Bill P

Now's the time to fight, not run. I thought all this shit wouldn't come down in my lifetime! It's the acceleration of history!

--Brant

You have that right! Here's hoping that the proportion of those who just voted "yes" on the Health Care bill who are DEFEATED in their next try for reelection is strikingly high, so much that the lesson is clear to all.

Don't tread on us!

Bill P

Let's do what we can to ensure that as many as possible of those who voted "yes" today are voted out of office at the very next opportunity.

I am sickened by what has just happened. But it's not "over" by any means. Not even time to cry. Just time to redouble our efforts, speak out, make certain to vote, . . . .

Bill P

Well, Bart Stupak and his dwindling band have cut a deal.

So now the monstrosity will pass the House without "deeming."

It could get really ugly in the Senate next month, but Obama will have signed the original Senate bill, so he won't care.

It's gonna be a wild year.

Robert Cambpell

It's a sad time. I'm awake at 5 a.m. (in Shanghai) and have been watching the live feed on the house floor (while tracking the vote counts) for several hours. It doesn't look good for freedom, or for the budget (either of the Federal government, or of individual citizens).

Bill P

Summary: People are different. Some tall. Some short. Just kidding. I deleted the long thread.

David mentioned leaving for a while. Care to expound on that?

Peter

I'm here temporarily assigned to another branch of my company and I'm going back to the main office in 3 days in Manila where connection is restricted only to server on our floor (WTF?!) and in the place where I usually stay, I have no PC nor net connection so I have to go to a computer rental shop to browse if I ever want it. Happy to report that though I'm going to miss OL and the good fellows that are in here, I'm not going to go haywire without the internet anytime soon (although I can buy the equipment anytime LOL). I just don't see a dire need for it. Heck, when I start my masters degree, I'd probably do it though not for now.

David -

Enjoy your stay in Manila.

Bill P

Poor Jimmy Carter, bless his bitter, old, anti-semitic heart. President Barack Obama has totally stolen his thunder. First, Obama had to horn in on Carter's "I received a completely unwarranted Nobel Peace Prize" mantle. Now, this! What does Carter have left now? A few rancid cases of Billy Beer?

http://i1016.photobu...ter-300x204.jpg

Screamingly funny. THanks for posting this one.

Bill P