Cultural Marketplace

[Derek McGowan]

I had this thought yesterday in the bath tub (amazing how we get the best thinking done in the bathroom!)

I was thinking about the primal importance placed on economic market place in Objectivism and how the logical conclusion to that is Lassiez Faire. But then I thought that hey, economic models are simply a result of culture. Different cultures have different economic systems. Culture determines, I dare say, all aspects of our lives. Culture is primal, and the "Cultural Marketplace" is supreme. It is where ideas are presented, grow, or whiter and die. Ideas are accepted by a large variety of individuals who have examined those ideas freely and/or ideas are rejected by that same population. Fashion, whats in and whats out is a result of the cultural marketplace. Race relations are a result of the cultural marketplace. The distribution of religion, the use or disuse of the internet, having pets, burial ceremonies... all these ideas were promoted by some one or some group. Whether they were adapted from older traditions or created whole cloth. These ideas then competed in the market and there were winners and losers. The competition continues. New words start as slang and then enter the official language (example, the history of the term birdie in golf is interesting) other entire official languages fall out of favor as second and third generation immigrants choose competing languages and traditions from the market.

There is no endpoint. The best scenario is that new and old ideas are continually allowed to enter the market and to live or die on their own merit. Some ideas have strong support (such as teaching creationism in schools, or the Objectivist movement itself!) even when the implementation of such ideas is not currently considered popular. Some ideas have big names behind them (Scientology, SPCA, etc) some ideas are stable and grounded in today's culture and still need periodic defending.

The main thing is that those ideas are allowed to enter the market. Having a market many times leads to a balanced view as some parts of a tradition are kept and integrated and this is a good thing. The melting pot of America with its collection of food styles, elements of fashion from far flung nations and a language that has more than its fair share of foreign influence, have made us a strong and interesting place to live.

Therefore, I have come to thing that perhaps while our current mixed economy may or may not be the best system in a scientific sense, it is a good sign that the cultural market is alive and well. I think we should take time to embrace that fact and never decide to impose one view or another upon the whole population. We shouldn't hope to put everyone in this or that economic system and assume that its best for them and that once they are in it they will see the light. That is a job to be decided by the cultural market.

ps. again, I just had this thought last night in the bath before bed, so it may not be articulated in the best way but I would like to modify or refine it so your thoughts are welcome

[Selene]

Derrick:

One qualifying questuin that I would ask you is the comfort level you have with what is being imposed on others by the mixed economy?

A...

[moralist]

Adam writes:

One qualifying question that I would ask you is the comfort level you have with what is being imposed on others by the mixed economy?

That's a question well worth considering...

The economy is not a uniform monolith. Within it are a wide variety of economic microclimates. So my response to having little tolerance for imposition, is to actively participate in a micro business "cartel" by interacting with others who share both my vision and values. The result is an independent American Capitalist oasis created within the desert of European-style liberal socialism.

So if you don't like living in a desert... make it bloom.

That's the American way.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

So if you don't like living in a desert... make it bloom.

That's the American way.

Greg

Oh really?????? have you seen pictures of the Shenedoah and the Blue Ridge take around the turn of the 20 th century. The lumber companies clear cut the blue ridge and the Shenendoah. They turned it into a desert.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

Bob writes:

Oh really?????? have you seen pictures of the Shenedoah and the Blue Ridge take around the turn of the 20 th century. The lumber companies clear cut the blue ridge and the Shenendoah. They turned it into a desert.

It's a metaphor, Bob...

...but if you don't understand the idea of creating your own local economic microclimate, I'm ok with that. You're welcome to live in the liberal socialist economic system that was created by others. It's the system created by the political majority in America who demand to be served by the government at the expense of others.

And what those people did in the dead past has no relevance to here and now where I am. That's the only place where anything actually happens...

...and I'm the one who is in control of that.

Greg

[Derek McGowan]

Derrick:

One qualifying questuin that I would ask you is the comfort level you have with what is being imposed on others by the mixed economy?

A...

Sorry, responding so late

I would only say that any sort of system that effects a large amount of the population will have its "losers" (those who don't want to have anything to do with it, those who will actively fight to change it, those who are disenfranchised or black balled, ..... those who are being imposed upon....)

[BaalChatzaf]

Bob writes:

Oh really?????? have you seen pictures of the Shenedoah and the Blue Ridge take around the turn of the 20 th century. The lumber companies clear cut the blue ridge and the Shenendoah. They turned it into a desert.

It's a metaphor, Bob...

...but if you don't understand the idea of creating your own local economic microclimate, I'm ok with that. You're welcome to live in the liberal socialist economic system that was created by others. It's the system created by the political majority in America who demand to be served by the government at the expense of others.

And what those people did in the dead past has no relevance to here and now where I am. That's the only place where anything actually happens...

...and I'm the one who is in control of that.

Greg

Right. I will become a hermit tomorrow.

I am sure living independently will work out fine for you, until (God forbid) you need your appendix removed.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

Derrick:

One qualifying questuin that I would ask you is the comfort level you have with what is being imposed on others by the mixed economy?

A...

Sorry, responding so late

I would only say that any sort of system that effects a large amount of the population will have its "losers" (those who don't want to have anything to do with it, those who will actively fight to change it, those who are disenfranchised or black balled, ..... those who are being imposed upon....)

Derek, you didn't mention what your comfort level for imposition was, and didn't include the following as an option. Have you ever considered creating your own system? This creative outside the box approach is for the American producer minority which has no tolerance for the imposition of an economic system created by the moocher and looter majority.

Greg

[moralist]

Bob writes:

Oh really?????? have you seen pictures of the Shenedoah and the Blue Ridge take around the turn of the 20 th century. The lumber companies clear cut the blue ridge and the Shenendoah. They turned it into a desert.

It's a metaphor, Bob...

...but if you don't understand the idea of creating your own local economic microclimate, I'm ok with that. You're welcome to live in the liberal socialist economic system that was created by others. It's the system created by the political majority in America who demand to be served by the government at the expense of others.

And what those people did in the dead past has no relevance to here and now where I am. That's the only place where anything actually happens...

...and I'm the one who is in control of that.

Greg

Right. I will become a hermit tomorrow.

It's hardly that, Bob...

Working to create your own local economic microclimate just means doing business with other American Capitalist producers for the benefit of all parties involved.

I am sure living independently will work out fine for you,

It already has for decades.

I follow the independent American Capitalist producer business model Ayn Rand described in Atlas Shrugged.

until (God forbid) you need your appendix removed.

You have no idea of how the attitude you just expressed has affected your own life.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

You have no idea of how the attitude you just expressed has affected your own life.

Greg

Oh, indeed I do. I only know a small fraction of what it takes to keep me alive. And that is why I will never be a true Independent in the practical sense. There are too many things I need (or at least want) than I am able to provide for myself. Either I remain a dependent or I reduce my needs and wants to the bare survival level.

Even the dude in Rand's novel Anthem had to bring other members of the Unity to his house to make life work.

As Hobbes pointed out without a working society (and this requires an authority) the life of Man is nasty, brutish and short.

See of you can refute Hobbes either practically or theoretically.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

And that is why I will never be a true Independent in the practical sense.

I define independence quite differently than you do because each of us has a different experience of independence.

For me, independence is not your silly definition of absolute separation from everyone. It's simply freedom from the economic system created by the moochers who expect others to pay their bills, and the public union looters who service the moochers' entitled expectations.

Even the dude in Rand's novel Anthem had to bring other members of the Unity to his house to make life work.

That's why I do business with other Americans who share my values, so that each adds to the quality of the other's life.

As Hobbes pointed out without a working society (and this requires an authority) the life of Man is nasty, brutish and short.

That begs the question... which society?

There's more than one, you know.

There is the majority European liberal socialist system where everyone expects someone else to pay their bills...

...and then there is the minority American Capitalist system where each American willingly assumes complete personal responsibility for the quality of his own life.

But you can NEVER leave the European liberal socialist system to enter the freedom of the American Capitalist system without taking this Oath:

"I swear by my life and my love of it

that I will never pay the bills of another man,

nor allow another man to pay for mine."

...and that's the Galt's honest truth.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

"I swear by my life and my love of it

that I will never pay the bills of another man,

nor allow another man to pay for mine."

...and that's the Galt's honest truth.

Greg

And when a squad of muscular young men come to pad lock your house, seize your goods and empty your bank accounts to pay taxes owed as well as hauling your sorry ass off to jail, what do you plan to do. If I were you, I would run and hide. You are outgunned.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

"I swear by my life and my love of it

that I will never pay the bills of another man,

nor allow another man to pay for mine."

...and that's the Galt's honest truth.

Greg

And when a squad of muscular young men come to pad lock your house, seize your goods and empty your bank accounts to pay taxes owed as well as hauling your sorry ass off to jail, what do you plan to do. If I were you, I would run and hide. You are outgunned.

That's just your own projected fear, Bob. That victim attitude is exactly to what I was previously referring. It'll poison your life.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

That's just your own projected fear, Bob. That victim attitude is exactly to what I was previously referring. It'll poison your life.

Greg

Excuse me. Government is force and that is a fact. An unfortunate fact, but a fact none the less.

We are outgunned and the only way of buying our liberty is with the effusion of blood. And even if we win, three or four generations down the line it will be deja vu all over again.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

That's just your own projected fear, Bob. That victim attitude is exactly to what I was previously referring. It'll poison your life.

Greg

Excuse me. Government is force and that is a fact. An unfortunate fact, but a fact none the less.

We are outgunned and the only way of buying our liberty is with the effusion of blood.

Jeez, Bob... you sound like the government has already turned its guns on you!

I told you... that kind of "I'm an innocent victim of government oppression" attitude is poison, because you're blaming (unjustly accusing) the government for your own failure to properly order your own life. And that act of blaming in itself is what makes you a victim... except the government is NOT the enemy.

Your only real enemy is you.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

I told you... that kind of "I'm an innocent victim of government oppression" attitude is poison, because you're blaming (unjustly accusing) the government for your own failure to properly order your own life. And that act of blaming in itself is what makes you a victim... except the government is NOT the enemy.

Your only real enemy is you.

Greg

I have ordered my life. I live comfortably within my means. I reckon it a success. I am wanting for nothing that I require to live in comfort and good health (so far, anyway). The price I pay is putting up with a certain amount of government shit.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

I have ordered my life. I live comfortably within my means. I reckon it a success. I am wanting for nothing that I require to live in comfort and good health (so far, anyway).

If that is really true then what's with all the victim whimpering about the government oppressing you? It doesn't make any sense. What you said in the previous post and what you're saying now don't match.

The price I pay is putting up with a certain amount of government shit.

The only people who have to put up with government shit, are the people who need something from the government. However, if you were to change how you are living by changing how you relate to the government, it would leave you alone to enjoy your life. Because the government has to answer to exactly the same higher moral law that you do, it can only treat you in a way that matches your own values.

So as long as you need anything from the government, you are the puppet...

...and the government holds all the strings.

Greg

[jts]

The only people who have to put up with government shit, are the people who need something from the government. However, if you were to change how you are living by changing how you relate to the government, it would leave you alone to enjoy your life. Because the government has to answer to exactly the same higher moral law that you do, it can only treat you in a way that matches your own values.

So as long as you need anything from the government, you are the puppet...

...and the government holds all the strings.

Greg

Let's take as an example of government shit the case of Joseph Stalin who took over agriculture in the Soviet Union. He kicked people off their own farms. The result was millions of people starved to death. I listened to the lengthy documentary on this. It was horrible.

Would it be correct to say these millions of people who starved to death would not have starved to death if they had ordered their lives right?

[BaalChatzaf]

Let's take as an example of government shit the case of Joseph Stalin who took over agriculture in the Soviet Union. He kicked people off their own farms. The result was millions of people starved to death. I listened to the lengthy documentary on this. It was horrible.

Would it be correct to say these millions of people who starved to death would not have starved to death if they had ordered their lives right?

The Kulaks did not have a chance. It was politically motivated genocide.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

It's a metaphor, Bob...

My nature is such that I take everything literally. Nuances and metaphors are wasted on me.

Ba'al Chatzarf

[moralist]

Let's take as an example of government shit the case of Joseph Stalin who took over agriculture in the Soviet Union...

Let's not.

What I say applies here and now in America and not somewhere else in the dead past...

...because the life in America enjoyed today was created in a completely unique manner in comparison to other nations which are basically just socialist shitholes.

It's beyond me how quickly people run away in their minds from right here and now in the present where everything is actually happening, and into the dead past someplace else. You could just as well get your examples from Mars a million years ago for all the relevance they have to America today.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

Let's take as an example of government shit the case of Joseph Stalin who took over agriculture in the Soviet Union...

Let's not.

What I say applies here and now in America and not somewhere else in the dead past...

...because the life in America enjoyed today was created in a completely unique manner in comparison to other nations which are basically just socialist shitholes.

It's beyond me how quickly people run away in their minds from right here and now in the present where everything is actually happening, and into the dead past someplace else. You could just as well get your examples from Mars a million years ago for all the relevance they have to America today.

Greg

The shit did not start here and now but it can be ended here and now.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

The shit did not start here and now but it can be ended here and now.

Only in our own individual lives... never in the world at large.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

The shit did not start here and now but it can be ended here and now.

Only in our own individual lives... never in the world at large.

Greg

Only sometimes. There are things that can happen to you and me over which we have no control.

Think of all those people who got cut up during the Chelybinsk meteor strike. That happened virtually without warning because there was another celestial object that everyone was paying attention to.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

The shit did not start here and now but it can be ended here and now.

Only in our own individual lives... never in the world at large.

Greg

Only sometimes.

That is consistent with your view that you accept no personal responsibility for most of what happens to you. How you live has absolutely nothing to do with what happens to you.

There are things that can happen to you and me over which we have no control.

In your view that certainly holds true. So the government, the President, nature, and anyone or anything else except you are all to blame for how your life has turned out. You are just a weak helpless powerless innocent victim of circumstance.

Greg