Are we At War with Islam? Check Your Premises!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ted,

That's enough.

This is not a site devoted to bigotry.

Your intelligence is welcome, but find another outlet for your bile and spite.

I mean it. I'm sick of this crap.

I prefer to sacrifice a friend these days rather than tolerate a bigot.

Michael

[anthony]

I'm going to start accepting that Islam has finally come of age when enough serious Muslims can tell me "Did you hear the one about the rabbi, the priest, and the imam...?" ;)

All religions are silly, and at least some believers either tacitly acknowledge this, or have the self-confidence to not feel threatened by any opposition.

Tony

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Tony,

If anyone said someone should piss on Ayn Rand, I would be just as revolted.

Kat and I did not make this forum for this.

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand to be around these kinds of people.

Michael

[Libertarian Muslim]

Zachary Adam Chesser

More advice from a funny-hatted Jihadi wannabe telling how he "fears" for someone's safety:

Adam Chesser is a perfect example of what I'm referring to. In his case he may have had some other issues happen in his life that led him to this immense imbalance..

[Libertarian Muslim]

I'm going to start accepting that Islam has finally come of age when enough serious Muslims can tell me "Did you hear the one about the rabbi, the priest, and the imam...?" ;)

All religions are silly, and at least some believers either tacitly acknowledge this, or have the self-confidence to not feel threatened by any opposition.

Tony

If I borrow a joke from my friend Jihad (yes, that's his name).

How many Muslims does it take to change a lightbulb?

One hundred. One to actually screw in the new lightbulb and ninety nine to criticize the way he did it. (Inside joke)

Now for some Salam Cafe:

After the Cronulla Riots where 5000 Anglo Australians rampaged through Cronulla assaulting any person of Middle Eastern appearance they could find Uncle Sam(eer) also thought he'd go to Frankston, another overwhelmingly Anglo Australian city in the State of Victoria to find out their opinions of Muslims:

When the City of Camden refused to allow an Islamic School to be built in their township. Uncle Sam(eer) came to the rescue:

Vote Uncle Sam(eer) for Mayor of Camden

[Philip Coates]

> find another outlet for your bile and spite.

Michael, you come down a lot harder on Ted for this sort of thing than you do on others. There are many, many posts on this site which have been a lot worse.

Taking myself as an example, if someone makes insulting, demeaning comments directed at me, you've never once told them to cut it out or go away.The difference is not the level of spite or malice. It's not that you are against nastiness and demonizing.

It's that you -agree- with what they say about me. Or at least you find it to be fair debate.

And you don't agree with Ted's (sometimes overly sloppy) generalizing about the threat of Islam and about muslim movements and tendencies.

Or his contempt for -both- Che Guevara types and Mohammed type leaders and killers.

Now that last is certainly within the limits of debate.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Phil,

Then I presume you believe that someone preaching that Ayn Rand should be pissed on is nothing more than "overly sloppy generalizing."

Right?

Yeah right.

You want to equate bigotry with flame wars that arise from the personal attacks you initiate from out of nowhere against people? Good Lord! That is moral equivalency on steroids.

Nothing justifies taunting a person by wanting to piss on what he holds sacred.

There is a good deal of flexibility on OL so that people can work through personalities and ideas, but outright bigotry and bigoted baiting of others is not welcome.

I am not going to argue about this issue and I am not going to hairsplit over it.

I will enforce this policy and I don't care who promotes bigotry.

Don't push me on this one, Phil.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

There is one correct way to "promote" bigotry: as a carnival side-show barker for the freak behind the curtain.

--Brant

Edited August 8, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[anthony]

I'm going to start accepting that Islam has finally come of age when enough serious Muslims can tell me "Did you hear the one about the rabbi, the priest, and the imam...?" ;)

All religions are silly, and at least some believers either tacitly acknowledge this, or have the self-confidence to not feel threatened by any opposition.

Tony

If I borrow a joke from my friend Jihad (yes, that's his name).

How many Muslims does it take to change a lightbulb?

One hundred. One to actually screw in the new lightbulb and ninety nine to criticize the way he did it. (Inside joke)

Now for some Salam Cafe:

After the Cronulla Riots where 5000 Anglo Australians rampaged through Cronulla assaulting any person of Middle Eastern appearance they could find Uncle Sam(eer) also thought he'd go to Frankston, another overwhelmingly Anglo Australian city in the State of Victoria to find out their opinions of Muslims:

When the City of Camden refused to allow an Islamic School to be built in their township. Uncle Sam(eer) came to the rescue:

Vote Uncle Sam(eer) for Mayor of Camden

Adonis,

A lightbulb? What is a lightbulb? Of which differentia and genus? Does it have value for Man, qua Man? Morally, should I benefit from the labour of another person screwing it in? Surely, this person is motivated by altruism. Define "moral". Define "altruism." Ah, let's sit in the dark til it all becomes clear.

(Also a rather lame inside joke, you must recognise by now.)

Tony

[Dragonfly]

I've tried to stay out of this islam discussion, but I no longer can keep silent, I'm getting sick of this eternal appeasement of the islam. Americans are often quite naive in this regard, behaving like Chamberlain with his "peace in our time". Well, only 0.8% of the population of the US are muslims, while this percentage in the Netherlands is 5.6%, so we have a bit more experience with these people, and believe me: this experience is far from positive to put it mildly. People who dare to identify and warn against this danger must be continuously heavily protected (remember Hirsi Ali, Wilders, Van Gogh?), it's rather cheap to criticize their behavior from a comfortable armchair. The islam is a barbaric and primitive doctrine that is no less evil than nazism. And talking about bigotry: this Vlahos person justifies the stoning of adulterers! And we should respect that kind of bigotry??! Such a regression into the primitive middle ages is what will be your future if you continue to appease those people, believing all that spurious "peace" talk. Ask for example the non-muslim people in Malmö in Sweden what they think about the islamization of their city, that was once a quiet and peaceful place. Googling "Malmö" and "muslims" may be revealing!

[Brant Gaede]

I've tried to stay out of this islam discussion, but I no longer can keep silent, I'm getting sick of this eternal appeasement of the islam. Americans are often quite naive in this regard, behaving like Chamberlain with his "peace in our time". Well, only 0.8% of the population of the US are muslims, while this percentage in the Netherlands is 5.6%, so we have a bit more experience with these people, and believe me: this experience is far from positive to put it mildly. People who dare to identify and warn against this danger must be continuously heavily protected (remember Hirsi Ali, Wilders, Van Gogh?), it's rather cheap to criticize their behavior from a comfortable armchair. The islam is a barbaric and primitive doctrine that is no less evil than nazism. And talking about bigotry: this Vlahos person justifies the stoning of adulterers! And we should respect that kind of bigotry??! Such a regression into the primitive middle ages is what will be your future if you continue to appease those people, believing all that spurious "peace" talk. Ask for example the non-muslim people in Malmö in Sweden what they think about the islamization of their city, that was once a quiet and peaceful place. Googling "Malmö" and "muslims" may be revealing!

Sweden and most Swedes are getting just what they deserve, inviting those people in to feed on their horrible envy-ridden welfare state. What a bunch of sanctimonious wimps! In Tucson those punks would get beat up, shot, arrested, imprisoned--you name it: sliced and diced. They'd become "good" Muslims so fast their heads would spin around and around out of the sheer initial inertia. Even armed home invaders are likely to get gunned down by homeowners here. It happens several times a year.

--Brant

armed SOB

Edited August 8, 2010 by Brant Gaede

[anthony]

Tony,

If anyone said someone should piss on Ayn Rand, I would be just as revolted.

Kat and I did not make this forum for this.

I'm getting to the point where I can't stand to be around these kinds of people.

Michael

Michael,

There's gentle, self-deprecating humour; and there's irrational, hating, prejudice, and never the two should meet.

(What is humour, but the simplest form of objectivity - identification, and benevolent characterisation.)

To repeat, I will always respect the rights of anyone to have whatever faith they choose, and back it up with action if necessary.

As long as he or she keeps it at home. (So to speak.)

Also, I can take jokes about Rand and Objectivism (and atheists, and Jews) from people who know me - but I think they realise there's a line they cannot cross.

Now, do you know the one about Rand meeting Kant in heaven...

Tony

[Libertarian Muslim]

Adonis,

A lightbulb? What is a lightbulb? Of which differentia and genus? Does it have value for Man, qua Man? Morally, should I benefit from the labour of another person screwing it in? Surely, this person is motivated by altruism. Define "moral". Define "altruism." Ah, let's sit in the dark til it all becomes clear.

(Also a rather lame inside joke, you must recognise by now.)

Tony

Haha yes I do.. But the lightbulb went out, surely this was the will of God, if God had meant for the lightbulb to be changed, then being all powerful He would have given new life to the current lightbulb or changed it Himself.. Due to the fact that this has not happened, we can only assume that God does not want us to have light.. That somehow there is benefit to living in darkness or perhaps we offended our Lord.. We should repent... Come on brothers, let us pray.. We should bow down and ask our lord for forgiv....... Owwww... Hit my head on the corner of the coffee table.. No light.. Ouch..

I've tried to stay out of this islam discussion, but I no longer can keep silent, I'm getting sick of this eternal appeasement of the islam. Americans are often quite naive in this regard, behaving like Chamberlain with his "peace in our time". Well, only 0.8% of the population of the US are muslims, while this percentage in the Netherlands is 5.6%, so we have a bit more experience with these people, and believe me: this experience is far from positive to put it mildly. People who dare to identify and warn against this danger must be continuously heavily protected (remember Hirsi Ali, Wilders, Van Gogh?), it's rather cheap to criticize their behavior from a comfortable armchair. The islam is a barbaric and primitive doctrine that is no less evil than nazism. And talking about bigotry: this Vlahos person justifies the stoning of adulterers! And we should respect that kind of bigotry??! Such a regression into the primitive middle ages is what will be your future if you continue to appease those people, believing all that spurious "peace" talk. Ask for example the non-muslim people in Malmö in Sweden what they think about the islamization of their city, that was once a quiet and peaceful place. Googling "Malmö" and "muslims" may be revealing!

See here is where you're wrong.. My opinion on stoning isn't so simple.. I've explained it in far more detail previously and you should probably go and research what I've said more..

Next, to assume that the Muslim community is only .8% of the US population is silly.. There are many more, it's just that a huge amount have been afraid over the last 10 years that the Government will round them up and put them into camps like they did the Japanese and Germans and planned to do with the African Americans with Rex84.

Secondly, the US has been perhaps the most successful nation in dealing with Muslims for the majority of the past few hundred years.. Muslims want to be Americans not just because of the opportunity, but due to the beauty of what it is to be an American..

Europe has no respect for religions other than their own.. That is why the US and New Zealand in my opinion are still the best places to live because they respect the rights of people far more in terms of religion compared to Europe.

Nevertheless, you're right.. The issue of people like Ayaan Hirsi is very serious.. No doubt this woman has been exposed to be a liar and also quite hate filled in her actions.. But actually, this doesn't justify trying to kill her, in fact it only makes her stronger.. She has legitimate concerns about the cultural practices of parts of the Muslim world in Africa and the Gulf.. I agree with those concerns.. However, I disagree that somehow these are the teachings of Islam..

The problems can be fixed with education, that is what is necessary.. Not banning the Qur'an or Islam etc..

Europe's reactions to all of these events are making things worse for themselves, instead of engaging with the Muslim population they are demonizing and alienating them.. It will create more disenfranchised youth and eventually will lead to more extremism and even terrorism..

Is it right? No.. No one should resort to violence to voice an opinion, but at the end of the day the state also bears some responsibility for not respecting the natural rights of the individual.. If the state did that in the first place, then there would be no disenfranchised youth and sure there'd be a small amount, a very minute amount but the majority of the Muslim community wouldn't feel that way and they'd just continue as happy citizens like the overwhelming majority do in the USA.

Yes, Europe will be overwhelmed by Muslims in then next 50 years, our population there is growing at a huge rate.. The question is, will these people have loyalty to the state and the European way of life or not? If trends continue as they are then they won't and conflict will occur..

It can easily be avoided though.. If Europe became more like the US and respected individual rights like the US constitution does as a constitutional republic then these wouldn't be issues because a section of the society wouldn't feel maligned, alienated or threatened..

Muslims in Europe are afraid of another European inquisition.. But don't expect them to just sit down and accept this treatment this time.. Any state that doesn't respect the natural human rights of individuals to the extent that they're willing to infringe on the rights of those individuals whether it's a European state or a Gulf state in my opinion has no right to exist in that form..

I'd wholly support anyone who's rights are infringed to the extent where their forced to leave the country they were born in to start asserting those rights and even if absolutely necessary use measured violence to safeguard their life, liberty and property.. As the US Declaration of Independence said..

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

You may not like that.. In fact I can almost guarantee that you wont.. But you obviously don't believe in natural rights for the individual and believe you can dictate to people what they can and can't believe.. You are an enemy of liberty.. Just don't expect to be able to take my natural rights without a long and bloody fight for them..

[Philip Coates]

> islam is a barbaric and primitive doctrine that is no less evil than nazism.

So, Michael, would you call this "bigotry" when DF generalizes this way?

Edited August 9, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

> islam is a barbaric and primitive doctrine that is no less evil than nazism.

So, Michael, would you call this "bigotry" when DF generalizes this way?

Phil,

Actually you gave me a good idea.

I'm closing the thread. If people can't discuss this matter without taking a religion that has a bunch of denominations and treating all of them in the same manner as the statement "all niggers are stupid," I don't want to be around it and I don't want to pay for it.

This thread is closed.

Michael