Libertarian Muslim Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 (edited) Prejudice confirmedJuly 17, 2010 - 12:40PMAyaan Hirsi Ali's convert-like zeal is both disturbing and delusional, writes Hilary McPhee.AYAAN Hirsi Ali has brains and beauty and is a gift to those of us who like our prejudices confirmed. In Australia, where she returns regularly to promote her books, she reinforces our idea of the Muslim world as monolithic, mediaeval and dangerous. Islam is all bad, religion is the problem, Allah is the villain. The West is better in every respect. These days she proclaims the American way with stars in her eyes.Hirsi Ali's early life was difficult and spent on the move between Somalia, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia and Kenya. Had she grown up elsewhere — in parts of the Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey or Teheran perhaps — she might have been able to give us a more complex and sympathetic picture of the Muslim world, but I suspect not. As each of us is shaped by family and culture, it was her dysfunctional family that formed her, and gave her the courage and impetus to escape — a harsh mother she despised, an educated politicised father she idealised until "he fell back into a trance of submission to Allah", a younger sister she had hopes for but who married and retreated from the life being offered in Europe.Hirsi Ali's story is extraordinary and her books, mixtures of memoir and analysis wearing their dramatic single-word titles like brand names, are highly popular throughout the West. A Muslim apostate is both consolation and vindication in uncertain times.Infidel told the story of her family and her flight to Holland to escape an arranged marriage, how she learnt the ropes of the welfare system and the workforce, before gaining a university education. How she became a member of the Dutch Parliament, worked with immigrant women, scripted the film Submission, of Koranic verses projected onto a naked woman's body, a provocation for which the producer, Theo van Gogh, was murdered and she received death threats. From then on, she was provided with bodyguards by the Dutch Government until a political furore over her citizenship status caused her to leave Holland for the US.In 2006, she accepted a job with the ultra-conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute, which had provided much of the rationale for military intervention in Iraq and for rebuilding the image of Israel in the world through a conservative alliance with America. Nomad is dedicated to the past president, Chris DeMuth, "my surrogate abeh" (father).Hirsi Ali describes this time as her intellectual coming-of-age. With her now private bodyguards, she travels the US and those parts of the world that welcome her message, lecturing on the evils of Islam and explaining her remedies, scornful of more than 1.5 billion Muslims. After Allah, Muslim women receive most of the blame — childlike, unable to manage money, trapped in their marriages, pouring their frustration into damaging their daughters.We are never reminded that more than 50 countries from Indonesia to Iran through Africa and the Middle East have Muslim majorities and vastly different cultures and histories.A perspective on the role played by poverty, illiteracy and rural conservatism is missing.The books aren't much good. Infidel, ghostwritten in Dutch and published in English translation in 2007, came at the right time and sold hugely. Nomad is an awkward retelling of her story through the lens of imagined contact with her sister and her dying father, her hated mother and her dead grandmother. Framed by a chapter called "A Letter to My Grandmother" and an epilogue called "A Letter to My Unborn Daughter", are large chunks of out-of-date polemic echoing Bernard Lewis and Samuel P. Huntington. The "clash of civilisations" gets a rerun.Her targets are predictable. Multiculturalism is utopian, producing victims and welfare dependence. Feminists are naive to suggest that many women in the West are also manipulated, complicit, objectified. Germaine Greer cops it for cultural relativism; Tariq Ramadan for being Tariq Ramadan.There is a depressing absence of hope or empathy. Micro-financing, which has for years been helping women out of poverty, doesn't rate a mention; nor does the improved literacy in some Islamic countries; nor the belated but huge investment in education in some rich Arab countries. The growing numbers of Muslim women in public life and scholars reinterpreting the Koran and Shar'ia, described by Isobel Coleman in Paradise Beneath Her Feet, do not fit her thesis and are ignored.Hirsi Ali has joined the ranks of celebrity atheists. Martin Amis and Christopher Hitchens speak of her beauty and tiny wrists. The latter is in a state of adoration: "For me the three most beautiful words in the emerging language of secular resistance to tyranny are Ayaan Hirsi Ali."I wonder what they make of one of the "remedies" in Nomad that Muslims would be better off being Christian and that the Vatican joins the campaign to save Muslims from themselves.There is something disturbing and slightly delusional here, the zeal of the convert protecting herself from facing the consequences of her own actions and theories, perhaps. The cult that surrounds Hirsi Ali could engulf her. She's a one-woman band against her own culture, a hero to herself as well to the men who worship her. I can't help but fear for her.Ayaan Hirsi Ali is in conversation on July 29 at the Capitol Theatre. Bookings: wheelercen-tre.com.Hilary McPhee, editor, writer and former publisher, has been liv-ing and working in the Middle East. Her selec-tion of recent Australian writing, Wordlines, is published by Five Mile Press this month.Source: http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/books/prejudice-confirmed-20100716-10e7n.html Edited July 17, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Campbell Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 The cult that surrounds Hirsi Ali could engulf her. She's a one-woman band against her own culture, a hero to herself as well to the men who worship her. I can't help but fear for her.Adonis,Since you appear to endorse the viewpoint taken in this article, could you hazard a guess as to what Ms. McPhee "fears for" in Ms. Hirsi Ali's future?Robert Campbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Renzulli Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 (edited) I think the only person being delusional is the author of this essay. She cannot prove her premise and yet relies on ad-hoc accusations and red herrings to make her case. What is disturbing is that the author may have not ever read Hirsi Ali's book Infidel or, if she did, went into reading the book with pre-concieved notions as to what the book is about and/or ignorance about Islam.I base my relationships on the kind of relations I have with others regardless of their race or religion. If they do not try to decieve or lie to me and do not commit acts of aggression against me I will trade and might even look to start a friendship or acquaintance of some kind with them.I have no problem trading and being in relations with Muslims so long as they do not commit acts of violence against me or anyone else.In terms of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's experience, the fact that she has to live in hiding with body guards since her life is still in danger as the result of her work speaks volumes of the people who she has angered. Hirsi Ali has obviously told the truth or those who want her killed or attempt to slander her reputation would instead seek to engage, debate, or discuss her experiences and points in an effort to prove her wrong.Having been a Christian for over 30 years I can associate a similar experience to what Ms. Hirsi Ali went through. Though I did not have my genitals mutiliated, like her ability to think, my ability to think nearly was.Fortunately, and thanks to Ms. Rand's philosophy, I have been able to not only assert my individuality but my sanity and live a life of reason and rationality too.Ayaan Hirsi Ali deserves a Nobel Prize for her efforts. I will not hold my breath that the Nobel Committee will give her one due to the fact that they have given people like Al Gore and Paul Krugman awards. Edited August 7, 2010 by Mike Renzulli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 (edited) The cult that surrounds Hirsi Ali could engulf her. She's a one-woman band against her own culture, a hero to herself as well to the men who worship her. I can't help but fear for her.Adonis,Since you appear to endorse the viewpoint taken in this article, could you hazard a guess as to what Ms. McPhee "fears for" in Ms. Hirsi Ali's future?Robert CampbellAdonis, That would interest me too: What do you think McPhee "fears for" Ali Hirsi? Your posting the article here indicates that you consider it as relevant for the discussion. So where exacactly do you see its relevance? Please be specific. Edited August 11, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Muslim Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 Because there are extremists out there that would kill Ayaan Hirsi for what she says, just as they've done with any of their opposition whether those opposition hate Islam, or are Muslims who simply hate the cancerous ideals of Wahhabism. They do need to be stopped.Despite the lies that Hirsi has told and the misguided hate she incites towards Islam, rather than the practices of culturalism and tribalism that she has seen, I don't believe that killing anyone is going to benefit.. In fact, the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him was insulted and lied about more during his own life than he has been in the past 10 years and he didn't react like that.. So why should we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhorse Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Muslims still attacking her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) Because there are extremists out there that would kill Ayaan Hirsi for what she says, just as they've done with any of their opposition whether those opposition hate Islam, or are Muslims who simply hate the cancerous ideals of Wahhabism. They do need to be stopped.And how do you think they are going to be stopped? Any suggestions? What history tells us is that if no one speaks up in public about violation of human rights by extremists of whatever provenience, those atrocities will continue. Those who do speak up and accuse can indeed risk their lives, but these people have both courage and a commitment so strong that speaking up in the name of the victims is of greater value to them than their lives. Giordano Bruno for example was burnt at the stake for speaking up about a scientific truth, and he considered this truth as of more value than his life. It was the speaking up in public by victims like Ali Hirsi about the horrific practice of genital mutilation which has led to campaigns for its abolishemnt. Despite the lies that Hirsi has told Would you please name those lies. Most people are born into a religion without their consent. I for example was baptised as a baby and raised a Catholic. In past centuries, one could not just unassign and leave, as it is possible today. Suppose someone has been born a Muslim and wants to leave: In the Wikipedia article, it says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion"It is common belief among Muslims that everyone is Muslim at birth[14][15] [derived from a single source and brought into being by the single entity] but sometimes chooses to take steps to revert back to their origins. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion, apostasy, is considered to be a sin, and carries with it the penalty of death.[16]" I then went to [16] and got the foilowing link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htmWhat I want to know from you, Adonis: 1) Is what it says in the article "Apostasy is equal to treason" accurate in that its explanation why Islam does not allow apostasy can be regarded as representing the belief accurately? If yes, 2) Do you agree with what, according to the Shari'ah law, awaits the apostate?If yes, why?If not, why not? Edited August 14, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Muslim Posted August 15, 2010 Author Share Posted August 15, 2010 And how do you think they are going to be stopped? Any suggestions? What history tells us is that if no one speaks up in public about violation of human rights by extremists of whatever provenience, those atrocities will continue. Those who do speak up and accuse can indeed risk their lives, but these people have both courage and a commitment so strong that speaking up in the name of the victims is of greater value to them than their lives. Giordano Bruno for example was burnt at the stake for speaking up about a scientific truth, and he considered this truth as of more value than his life. Do you honestly think that people want to kill her because she speaks out against honor killings? Female genital mutilation? etc.. Absolutely not, there are millions of Muslims out there that speak out against such barbarity and no harm comes to them.. That is because the practices mentioned are not Islamic, they're cultural and you can find them amongst all religious groups in those regions.. Including Christians too..The truth is that the people out there that want to kill her want to do so because she lies about Islam and the Prophet and intentionally tries to offend Muslims and insult the Prophet, she associates those disgusting practices with Islam when they are absolutely not a part of it. Is it right that she should be killed for this? No.. She should be dealt with in another matter as she already has been, discredited and shown to be the liar that she is.. And those who do try and harm her should be put in prison for their crimes.. It was the speaking up in public by victims like Ali Hirsi about the horrific practice of genital mutilation which has led to campaigns for its abolishemnt. What was she a victim of exactly? Would you please name those lies. You don't know? She lied about everything.. About living in a war zone.. About forced marriage.. About honor killings etc.. Just so she could get asylum in the Netherlands.. She's been exposed too and admitted to most of it.. She is a liar and lied to get where she wanted in life.. For fame and money also.. It was all exposed on a documentary called 'Holy Ayaan' Most people are born into a religion without their consent. I for example was baptised as a baby and raised a Catholic. In past centuries, one could not just unassign and leave, as it is possible today. Suppose someone has been born a Muslim and wants to leave: In the Wikipedia article, it says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion"It is common belief among Muslims that everyone is Muslim at birth[14][15] [derived from a single source and brought into being by the single entity] but sometimes chooses to take steps to revert back to their origins. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion, apostasy, is considered to be a sin, and carries with it the penalty of death.[16]" I then went to [16] and got the foilowing link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htmWhat I want to know from you, Adonis: 1) Is what it says in the article "Apostasy is equal to treason" accurate in that its explanation why Islam does not allow apostasy can be regarded as representing the belief accurately? If yes, 2) Do you agree with what, according to the Shari'ah law, awaits the apostate?If yes, why?If not, why not?I don't believe at all that one is obliged to stay Muslim if they want to leave Islam and certainly don't believe that there is a death penalty for those that leave Islam. In fact, to force people to stay Muslim is against any form of logic because they will only become hypocrites and unhappy.I would much prefer a thousand apostates I knew of than even one hypocrite. Those that were punished during the prophet peace be upon him's life were not punished for leaving Islam, rather they were punished for treason against the state, they not only left Islam but they went as far as to aid the Pagan Quraish against the Islamic State.. They did not leave the state and renounce their citizenship so they could fight against the people of Medina, rather they acted subversively against the State by plotting and acting..I see no problem with such a punishment because their actions were that of treason. In most countries the punishment for treason is the death penalty.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) editing Edited August 16, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) And how do you think they are going to be stopped? Any suggestions? What history tells us is that if no one speaks up in public about violation of human rights by extremists of whatever provenience, those atrocities will continue. Those who do speak up and accuse can indeed risk their lives, but these people have both courage and a commitment so strong that speaking up in the name of the victims is of greater value to them than their lives. Giordano Bruno for example was burnt at the stake for speaking up about a scientific truth, and he considered this truth as of more value than his life. Do you honestly think that people want to kill her because she speaks out against honor killings? Female genital mutilation? etc.. Absolutely not, there are millions of Muslims out there that speak out against such barbarity and no harm comes to them.. That is because the practices mentioned are not Islamic, they're cultural and you can find them amongst all religious groups in those regions.. Including Christians too..I'm very interested in being provided with sources indicating that millions of Muslims speak out in public about such barbarity. It was the speaking up in public by victims like Ali Hirsi about the horrific practice of genital mutilation which has led to campaigns for its abolishemnt. What was she a victim of exactly? Is it true that Ali Hirsi was genitally mutilated (Im going by the Wikipedia article on her)? If yes, how can you even ask what she was a victim of? Would you please name those lies. You don't know? She lied about everything.. About living in a war zone.. About forced marriage.. About honor killings etc.. Just so she could get asylum in the Netherlands.. She's been exposed too and admitted to most of it.. She is a liar and lied to get where she wanted in life.. For fame and money also.. It was all exposed on a documentary called 'Holy Ayaan'Thanks Adonis for providing the links in your post # 8. I haven't yet had time to go through the videos in detail, but will do so as soon as I have the time. If you are interested, we can go through them acribically together, which would also imply examining the videos themselves as sources, and then try to find out where they qualify as documenting the truth about a fact and where they fail to provide sufficient evidence to meet this burden of proof. In the course of our research, we would also have to go through source like the following: http://www.zemblabla.nl/English%20Text%20about%20The%20Holy%20Ayaan.pdfSo just let me know if you are interested in doing more detailed research on this issue. In the Wikipedia article, it says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion"It is common belief among Muslims that everyone is Muslim at birth[14][15] [derived from a single source and brought into being by the single entity] but sometimes chooses to take steps to revert back to their origins. While conversion to Islam is among its most supported tenets, conversion from Islam to another religion, apostasy, is considered to be a sin, and carries with it the penalty of death.[16]" I then went to [16] and got the foilowing link: http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htmWhat I want to know from you, Adonis: 1) Is what it says in the article "Apostasy is equal to treason" accurate in that its explanation why Islam does not allow apostasy can be regarded as representing the belief accurately? If yes, 2) Do you agree with what, according to the Shari'ah law, awaits the apostate?If yes, why?If not, why not?I don't believe at all that one is obliged to stay Muslim if they want to leave Islam and certainly don't believe that there is a death penalty for those that leave Islam. In fact, to force people to stay Muslim is against any form of logic because they will only become hypocrites and unhappy.Does this mean you personally disagree with what the Sha'aria law says about the apostate? [bolding in the quoted text mine], and would be opposed to the Sharia'ah law being inflicted on an apostate? http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostasy/5.htmApostasy is equal to treason: Why does Islam not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidãd in Islam is equal to treason.The Western world limits treason to political and military terms. In the USA, treason consists "only in levying war against Americans, and in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." However, sometimes even the Western world stretches the concept of political treason to include things which are non-politics or non-military matters. For example, in England, treason includes violating the King's consort, or raping the monarch's eldest married daughter, as well as the sexual violation of the wife of the eldest son and heir. Even now, "polluting" the Royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason.[5]Why has England included such non-political and non-military matters in treason? It has done so because the Royal family and the purity of its bloodline is one of the most significant parts of the British society and culture. In Islam, the concept of treason is not limited to political and military aspects; it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic order of sacredness, Allah, then the Prophet, and then the Qur'ãn occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyãma form the constitution of Islam. Just as upholding and protecting the constitution of a country is sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam by a Muslim is an act of treason. Apostasy, i.e., the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam, has also negative influence on the Muslim society; it is indeed a major fitna. And that is why Islam has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidãd.It must be emphasized that the irtidãd that we are discussing here involves open rejection, without any force and with full realization of what one's statements or actions imply. If a Muslim has a genuine doubt on an Islamic matter, that process of doubting does not automatically classify him as a murtad. As long as he is still in state of doubt, the punishment of irtidãd is suspended.[6] A murtad must fully realize the implications of his open rejection and what it means--casting doubt on the truth and honesty of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the Messenger of God.The punishment prescribed by the shari`ah for apostasy is death.Even the terms used by the shari`ah for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli.(1) "Murtad Fitri" means a person who is born of a Muslim parent and then he rejects Islam. "Fitrah" means creation. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostated from the faith in which he was born.(2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam and then later on he rejects Islam. Milli is from millat which means religion. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person has apostated from his religion and the Muslim community.In the first case, the apostasy is like the treason against God; whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like the treason against the Muslim community. Probably, that is why the Sh`iah jurisprudence deals with these two kinds of murtads differently:· A former kãfir who became a Muslim and then apostates (murtad milli), he is given a second chance: if he repents, then he is not to be killed; but if he does not repent, then he is to be killed.· But one who is born as a Muslim and then apostates (murtad fitri), he is to be killed even if he repents. It is important to understand that in case a murtad fitri repents, Allãh may accept his repentance and he may be forgiven in the hereafter, but he still has to go through the punishment prescribed for his treason in this world.[7]This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women, the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is lifted.In writings of some of the Sh`iah jurists, one gets the sense that the punishment of murtad is to be implemented only in dãru 'l-Islãm (i.e., the Muslim world), and that if the murtad flees to dãru 'l-kufr (i.e., the abode of kufr), then he is not to be pursued.[8]Notes:[5] See Professor Ali Mazrui, The Satanic Verse or a Satanic Novel, p. 4-5, who probably is the first Muslim to have used the term treason in comparison with apostasy in the context of the Rushdie affair.[6] Shaykh Muhammad Hasan al-Najafi, Jawãhiru 'l-Kalãm, vol. 6 (Tehran: Dãr al-Kutub al-Islãmiyya, n.d.) p. 46. According to Fakhrul Muhaqqiqin al-Hilli, it is obligatory to resolve the doubt(s) that are raised by the potential apostate. See his, Iidhãhu 'l-Fawã'id, vol. 4 (Qum: al-`Ilmiyyah, 1387) p. 550.[7] For a detailed discussion on the acceptance of the repentance (tawba) by a murtad fitri, see the transcript of the late Ayatullãh al-Khu'í's lectures by Shaykh al-Gharawi, at-Tanqíh, vol. 3, p. 224-229.[8] Shaykh al-Mufid, al-Muqni`ah (Qum: Jami`a Mudarrisin, 1410) pl 781; Ibn Hamzah at-Tusi, al-Wasilah ila Nayli 'l-Fadilah (Qum: Maktaba as-Sayyid al-Mar`ashi, 1408) p. 424-5; Muhaqqiq al-Hilli, Sharã'i` al-Islãm, vol. 4 (Tehran: al-Istiqlãl, 1409) p. 961-2. Edited August 16, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiodekadent Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 I have enormous respect for Ayaan Hirsi Ali. When she was interviewed on the 7.30 Report (a current affairs show in Australia), her benevolent sense of life could be felt through the screen. She's an amazing human being.But I have disagreements with her, and most of them can be boiled down to methodological collectivism.In short I believe she treats Christianity and Islam as monolithic entities with no variance amongst various subtypes or individual believers. It is understandable why she'd do this. Her experiences with Islam were immensely negative, whilst her experiences with Christianity have been (I'm tempted to say atypically) positive. I believe this has, to some extent, distorted her perspective.Lets start with Christianity, shall we? (and my source for her views is her interview with Reason magazine, see http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west)Where I come from, in Islam, the only concept of God is you submit to Him and you obey His commands, no quarreling allowed. Quarreling or even asking questions means you raise yourself to the same level as Him, and in Islam that’s the worst sin you can commit... Catholics should be proselytizing about a God who is love, who represents a hereafter where there’s no hell, who wants you to lead a life where you can confess your sins and feel much better afterwards. Those are lovely concepts of God. They can’t compare to the fire-breathing Allah who inspires jihadism and totalitarianism.Ali discusses only the Catholic concept of God, but she discusses no other concepts of God to be found in Christianity. What about the Calvinist conception of God? A mad celestial dictator that creates entities solely to torture them for his own glory? The kind of God that Calvinist Christians believe in is indeed very close to the fire-breathing Allah. The Evangelical concept of God isn't particularly nice either. Also, even the Catholic conception of God isn't exactly all rosy. Well, it (Islam) hasn’t been tamed like Christianity. See, the Christian powers have accepted the separation of the worldly and the divine. We don’t interfere with their religion, and they don’t interfere with the state. That hasn’t happened in Islam. Brackets are mine.Ali is correct that once, Christian powers were not tame; they were part of the State. But Ali seems to believe that Christianity itself has been tamed.Really?Fundamentalist Evangelicalism, people? Catholic priests denying politicians in their congregation the Eucharist unless the politician voted in a way the priest approved of? Christian religious powers may not be directly using violence but they are indeed preaching the subversion of secular States and the institution of religious policies. Christianity has not been "tamed." Plenty of Christians are, themselves, content with keeping State and Religion separate, but many Christian powers are not.Also, historically, Islamic civilization was in many respects more religiously liberal during the Dark Ages. Islamic Spain was by no means perfect but compared to Christian Europe, it was Las Vegas. Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.In other words, Ali admits there are nonviolent Muslims. Then she goes back to treating ALL forms of Islam as equally dangerous and toxic. Again, in Islamic Spain there were many peaceful forms of Islam that advocated allegorical rather than literalist interpretation of the Koran. Do I believe the Islamic world is in need of a Reformation? Very much so. But I think Ali views Christianity through rose colored glasses, and treats both Christianity and Islam as monolithic (she seems to go between acknowledging subtypes and making sweeping generalizations). Note that I support Ali when we're talking about Wahabbist Islam and Islamic fundamentalism and any form of Islam which believes the State should have any role in (non-coercive) religion. But to equate these sects with "Islam as a whole" is like saying that Catholicism is a representative sample of Christianity (or that Calvinism is, for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) I have enormous respect for Ayaan Hirsi Ali. When she was interviewed on the 7.30 Report (a current affairs show in Australia), her benevolent sense of life could be felt through the screen. She's an amazing human being.But I have disagreements with her, and most of them can be boiled down to methodological collectivism.In short I believe she treats Christianity and Islam as monolithic entities with no variance amongst various subtypes or individual believers. It is understandable why she'd do this. Her experiences with Islam were immensely negative, whilst her experiences with Christianity have been (I'm tempted to say atypically) positive. I believe this has, to some extent, distorted her perspective.Lets start with Christianity, shall we? (and my source for her views is her interview with Reason magazine, see http://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west)Where I come from, in Islam, the only concept of God is you submit to Him and you obey His commands, no quarreling allowed. Quarreling or even asking questions means you raise yourself to the same level as Him, and in Islam that’s the worst sin you can commit... Catholics should be proselytizing about a God who is love, who represents a hereafter where there’s no hell, who wants you to lead a life where you can confess your sins and feel much better afterwards. Those are lovely concepts of God. They can’t compare to the fire-breathing Allah who inspires jihadism and totalitarianism.Ali discusses only the Catholic concept of God, but she discusses no other concepts of God to be found in Christianity. What about the Calvinist conception of God? A mad celestial dictator that creates entities solely to torture them for his own glory? The kind of God that Calvinist Christians believe in is indeed very close to the fire-breathing Allah. The Evangelical concept of God isn't particularly nice either. Also, even the Catholic conception of God isn't exactly all rosy.It is indeed not rosy at all. What many also don't know is that in the Christian faith, the act of baptism is considered as an indelible imprint on the soul, making the baptised individual forever a member of Christ's corpus mysticum. The soul is brandmarked for eternity, so to speak.Cutting oneself off the corpus mysticum by abandoning the faith is compared to amputating a limb which then becomes worthless and will be thrown away. Where it will be thrown away is clear: hell is awaiting the apostate.The big monotheistic religions Islam, Judaism and Christianity have in common the demanding of absolute submission by humans to the will of a supernatural being considered as the almighty creator of the world. "I am a slave to the Creator", poster Adonis Vlahos wrote verbatim on OL, which is as clear as it can get. Not following the demand of submission to the will of the god will be sanctioned in all three religions, with the nature of the sanctions varying according to what is allowed by a society. Ali Hirsi using the term "tamed" for the Christian religion is quite revealing; imagine how our world would look like if t this had not happened. But there's a lot more yet to be done. Edited August 18, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 I'm going with God is existence and am giving up my atheism. I submit to it. I worship it. That's that.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Muslim Posted August 18, 2010 Author Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) Is it true that Ali Hirsi was genitally mutilated (Im going by the Wikipedia article on her)? If yes, how can you even ask what she was a victim of? She's lied on record for her own benefit.. This is fact.. So, if I may ask.. Why would I believe anything she says? Would you in any other circumstance accept testimony of a liar or is it your intense hate for Islam that causes you to clutch at straws to the extent that you're willing to ignore the fact that she has lied for her own gain in the past and believe what she says? The fact is that the tribal practice of Clitoridectomy (removing the clitoris) is forbidden in Islam and the punishment prescribed for the guilty parties of this crime (the people who do the cutting and those who are accessories to it if I'm not mistaken) is death because of the fact that they take from women something which is their right, that is that sex should be enjoyable for them.. Yes, it gets practiced amongst a minority of Muslims who still follow tribalism, but this isn't only amongst the Muslim population there, I know of many Christian Orthodox Ethiopian girls from Ethiopia and Egypt that have had this crime committed against them.. It's a disgusting practice and the only thing that Islam does allow, is a hoodectomy, that is.. Removing the clitoral hood which in fact enhances female response and arousal as opposed to Female Genital Mutliation like the clitoridectomy which tries to remove it. Yet people like Ayaan Hirsi claim that Islam's teachings are to practice FGM. It's simply not true. Thanks Adonis for providing the links in your post # 8. I haven't yet had time to go through the videos in detail, but will do so as soon as I have the time. If you are interested, we can go through them acribically together, which would also imply examining the videos themselves as sources, and then try to find out where they qualify as documenting the truth about a fact and where they fail to provide sufficient evidence to meet this burden of proof. In the course of our research, we would also have to go through source like the following: http://www.zemblabla.nl/English%20Text%20about%20The%20Holy%20Ayaan.pdfSo just let me know if you are interested in doing more detailed research on this issue. Yes, it is something that needs to be looked into more. Does this mean you personally disagree with what the Sha'aria law says about the apostate? [bolding in the quoted text mine], and would be opposed to the Sharia'ah law being inflicted on an apostate? I don't believe it is a practice of Shariah that apostasy is as simple an issue as portrayed and stand by my comments before stating that it's only treason when the apostate fights against the Islamic State without renouncing citizenship or aids the enemies of the state. Do I believe the Islamic world is in need of a Reformation? Very much so. But I think Ali views Christianity through rose colored glasses, and treats both Christianity and Islam as monolithic (she seems to go between acknowledging subtypes and making sweeping generalizations). Note that I support Ali when we're talking about Wahabbist Islam and Islamic fundamentalism and any form of Islam which believes the State should have any role in (non-coercive) religion. But to equate these sects with "Islam as a whole" is like saying that Catholicism is a representative sample of Christianity (or that Calvinism is, for that matter).I think the Muslim world is in need of a reformation of sorts, not saying that Islam needs to be changed, rather the interpretation of Islam by Muslims, needs to be re examined to get the Muslim world back in line with Islamic principles and teachings. The key is education. Once this is done, the majority of the Muslim world will fall into line with the correct teachings and that will leave a few that are hostile towards it.. They will be turned out by their own communities. I'm going with God is existence and am giving up my atheism. I submit to it. I worship it. That's that.--BrantSo you believe in God? If so, what brought this change on? Edited August 18, 2010 by Adonis Vlahos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) I'm going with God is existence and am giving up my atheism. I submit to it. I worship it. That's that.--BrantSo you believe in God? If so, what brought this change on?I've told you what my "God" is--it is everything taken in toto. It is existence itself. Now, tell us what yours is. A silly Christian might say He's an old man with a beard in the sky. A serious Christian would speak in pure unconcretable abstractions. As for what brought it on--a minor epiphany.--Brant Edited August 18, 2010 by Brant Gaede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Muslim Posted August 18, 2010 Author Share Posted August 18, 2010 I've told you what my "God" is--it is everything taken in toto. It is existence itself. Now, tell us what yours is. A silly Christian might say He's an old man with a beard in the sky. A serious Christian would speak in pure unconcretable abstractions. As for what brought it on--a minor epiphany.--BrantOh, hmmmm what is toto? What do I believe?I believe God is the Creator, Engineer, Author, Maintainer and Sustainer of all that is in existence. He is All Knowing, All Powerful and having no equals, no sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters etc. He needs not rest, nor slumber.. Nor anything to sustain Him.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) I've told you what my "God" is--it is everything taken in toto. It is existence itself. Now, tell us what yours is. A silly Christian might say He's an old man with a beard in the sky. A serious Christian would speak in pure unconcretable abstractions. As for what brought it on--a minor epiphany.--BrantOh, hmmmm what is toto? What do I believe?I believe God is the Creator, Engineer, Author, Maintainer and Sustainer of all that is in existence. He is All Knowing, All Powerful and having no equals, no sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters etc. He needs not rest, nor slumber.. Nor anything to sustain Him..Toto is the dog in The Wizard of Oz.--Brant Edited August 18, 2010 by Brant Gaede Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Muslim Posted August 18, 2010 Author Share Posted August 18, 2010 Toto is the dog in The Wizard of Oz.--BrantHaha I thought so, I just wanted to make sure before I addressed it.. Didn't want to insult your beliefs and all that jazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiodekadent Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 She's lied on record for her own benefit.. This is fact.. So, if I may ask.. Why would I believe anything she says? Would you in any other circumstance accept testimony of a liar or is it your intense hate for Islam that causes you to clutch at straws to the extent that you're willing to ignore the fact that she has lied for her own gain in the past and believe what she says? Yes, it gets practiced amongst a minority of Muslims who still follow tribalism, but this isn't only amongst the Muslim population there And it is this tribalist population of Muslims that Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born into.She lied to get into the Western World. Honestly, considering what she was fleeing from, I don't blame her.The fact is that the tribal practice of Clitoridectomy (removing the clitoris) is forbidden in Islam and the punishment prescribed for the guilty parties of this crime (the people who do the cutting and those who are accessories to it if I'm not mistaken) is death because of the fact that they take from women something which is their right, that is that sex should be enjoyable for them.. , I know of many Christian Orthodox Ethiopian girls from Ethiopia and Egypt that have had this crime committed against them.. It's a disgusting practice and the only thing that Islam does allow, is a hoodectomy, that is.. Removing the clitoral hood which in fact enhances female response and arousal as opposed to Female Genital Mutliation like the clitoridectomy which tries to remove it. Yet people like Ayaan Hirsi claim that Islam's teachings are to practice FGM. It's simply not true. Hoodectomy is still genital mutilation. For that matter I consider infant circumsicion of males to be abhorrent as well. And yes, the practice isn't exclusive to some Muslims; some Christians do it as well. And I agree with you that claiming these Muslims or these Christians as representative samples of all Muslims or all Christians is fallacious.I think the Muslim world is in need of a reformation of sorts, not saying that Islam needs to be changed, rather the interpretation of Islam by Muslims, needs to be re examined to get the Muslim world back in line with Islamic principles and teachings. The key is education. Once this is done, the majority of the Muslim world will fall into line with the correct teachings and that will leave a few that are hostile towards it.. They will be turned out by their own communities. Please remember that you separate "Islam" from "Interpretations thereof." That is not something many Muslims do. I assume you agree with Irshad Manji that the pre-Islamic tribalism of the Arabic world often gets package-dealt with Islam and that the two things should be separated (and honestly I agree with you). However, just saying that many Muslims don't agree with you, and I think you come close to declaring them "not Muslims" (you have a frozen abstraction; the wider class being "Muslims" and the subclass being "Muslims who's interpretation of Islam you agree with"). I'm not saying you're wrong theologically or anything, I just think you are freezing your abstractions in the same way that an Evangelical that claims "Catholics aren't Christians" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 (edited) Thanks Adonis for providing the links in your post # 8. I haven't yet had time to go through the videos in detail, but will do so as soon as I have the time. If you are interested, we can go through them acribically together, which would also imply examining the videos themselves as sources, and then try to find out where they qualify as documenting the truth about a fact and where they fail to provide sufficient evidence to meet this burden of proof. In the course of our research, we would also have to go through source like the following: http://www.zemblabla.nl/English%20Text%20about%20The%20Holy%20Ayaan.pdfSo just let me know if you are interested in doing more detailed research on this issue. Yes, it is something that needs to be looked into more. I have now seen all the videos and also went through what it says in the link that criticizes the videos. It looks like there are many distortions in the videos, and the link lists them point per point. She lied to get into the Western World. Honestly, considering what she was fleeing from, I don't blame her.I don't blame her either. Hirsi feared she was going to be sent back by the authorities if having "only" given as reason that she was fleeing from her family. She's lied on record for her own benefit.. This is fact.. So, if I may ask.. Why would I believe anything she says? Would you in any other circumstance accept testimony of a liar or is it your intense hate for Islam that causes you to clutch at straws to the extent that you're willing to ignore the fact that she has lied for her own gain in the past and believe what she says? I'm not ignoring anything. My focus is on evidence. Judging from a person having lied in one situation that whatever else he/she says must also be lies is a non-sequitur. From my studies of criminal cases, I know how important it is for investigators to get the complete picture, not just draw conclusions based on isolated items of evidence. The eye-witness testimonies by Hirsi Ali's relatives about her wedding for example don't qualitfy as conclusive evidence. Have you noticed the slight hesitation before saying "...yes." by one of the eyewitnesses when asked if Hirsi was present? As for the "aunt" speaking behind a veil - theoretically, this person could be anyone. When asked why the relatives' statements contradict her own, Hirsi explains it with them feeling shame about the whole situation, hence their the testimony that of course the bride was present her own wedding. The question about who tells the truth here can't be cleared up because a key piece of evidence is missing: pictures from the wedding showing the couple. Now don't you you think it strange that none of these relatives was able to produce a picture as evidence to show the interviewer? This raises a red flag in my eyes.As for you asking me if I'm "clutching at straws": the answer is no, since I don't go by the premise that humans are saints. Yes, it gets practiced amongst a minority of Muslims who still follow tribalism, but this isn't only amongst the Muslim population there And it is this tribalist population of Muslims that Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born into.That is exactly the point, studiodekadent. The Abrahamitic religions are patriarchal because they were all founded in an age of tribalism. And where these religions still play a powerful role in controlling people's lives in society is in those parts of the world which have a lot of patriarchalism and tribalism left. The less tribalism and patriarchalism there is, the less influential these religions will be, at least in their fundamentalist variety. The fact is that the tribal practice of Clitoridectomy (removing the clitoris) is forbidden in Islam and the punishment prescribed for the guilty parties of this crime (the people who do the cutting and those who are accessories to it if I'm not mistaken) is death because of the fact that they take from women something which is their right, that is that sex should be enjoyable for them.. , I know of many Christian Orthodox Ethiopian girls from Ethiopia and Egypt that have had this crime committed against them.. It's a disgusting practice and the only thing that Islam does allow, is a hoodectomy, that is.. Removing the clitoral hood which in fact enhances female response and arousal as opposed to Female Genital Mutliation like the clitoridectomy which tries to remove it. Yet people like Ayaan Hirsi claim that Islam's teachings are to practice FGM. It's simply not true. Hoodectomy is still genital mutilation. For that matter I consider infant circumsicion of males to be abhorrent as well. I too find it abhorrent to perform this procedure on children not being able to refuse. Justifying it with religious or whatever other reasons does not alter the fact one iota that it is violation of a human being's right to intactness of the body. Male circumcision allowed in Islam is a remainder of (religious) tribalism. Male Jews were circumcised to "mark" them as members of "God's chosen people". In Islam, male circumcison has its roots in Ishmael being the son of Abraham. As for female hoodectomy, Adonis's #14 post could give the impression that this is practised to enhance a woman's sexual pleasure. But the issue here is not about medical cases like e. g. excessive hood tissue having a "phimotic" effect. It might interest Adonis that in 2006, Islamic scholars at a conference in Kairo's Azhar university declared any form of female circumcision as "harmful and un-islamic". Edited August 19, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Muslim Posted August 21, 2010 Author Share Posted August 21, 2010 And it is this tribalist population of Muslims that Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born into.She lied to get into the Western World. Honestly, considering what she was fleeing from, I don't blame her.Oh please, Kenya? Kenya is not Somalia and people live good lives there. I have many Kenyan friends and they would be offended at the assertion that someone would have to flee from there. That is precisely why the government of the Netherlands wasn't accepting refugees from Somalia that came from Kenya.. Nevertheless, the point is, she lied for her own benefit, not only to simply get refugee status, but also in her book and other times.. To gain money and fame. So why should I believe anything she says?Hoodectomy is still genital mutilation. For that matter I consider infant circumsicion of males to be abhorrent as well. And yes, the practice isn't exclusive to some Muslims; some Christians do it as well. And I agree with you that claiming these Muslims or these Christians as representative samples of all Muslims or all Christians is fallacious.Male circumcision is actually compulsory in Islam and I'm not even going to bother arguing that with you because we're both it's not illegal and is not harmful and parents are legally allowed to choose it for their children.. I will most certainly get my sons circumcised.Next, to your point that a hoodectomy is FGM.. Female Genital Mutilation is illegal in many countries like the USA and UK and most of the world in fact, however you can still get a hoodectomy in these countries.. I. In the United States (by region)IA. NortheastManchester, New HampshireThe Plastic Surgery Center57 Bay StreetManchester, NH 031041-800-640-0290email: info@plasticsurgerypa.comWebsite: http://www.plasticsurgerypa.com/index.cfm?event=CategoryView&CategoryID=49'>http://www.plasticsurgerypa.com/index.cfm?event=CategoryView&CategoryID=49Duxbury, MassachusettsFemale plastic surgeon:Christine Hamori, M.D.Cosmetic Surgery and Skin Spa95 Tremont Street, Suite 28Duxbury, MA 02332Phone: (781) 934-2200Fax: (781) 934-7301Email: cah@christinehamori.comWebsite: http://www.christinehamori.com'>http://www.christinehamori.comDr. Hamori reports that she has had many referrals from this site and is very experienced in thisprocedure. Hood removal is not mentioned at her website, but the before and after photossupplied at her site show excellent results.Various locations in ConnecticutGreenwich, CTThe Greenwich Center forAesthetic Vaginal SurgeryEdward Jacobson, MDOne Perryridge RoadGreenwich, Connecticut 06830The Summer StreetSurgery Center1290 Summer St., Ste 3100Stamford, CT 06905The Greenwich Hospital5 Perryridge RoadGreenwich, Connecticut 06830Tel.: 203-869-8360Email: drjacobson@cosmeticvaginasurgery.comWebsite: http://cosmeticvaginasurgery.com/index.htmlDr. Jacobson also has an office in Beverly Hills, CA (see information for California, below)New York City (Manhattan)Female plastic surgeon:Michelle Copeland, D.M.D, M.D., F.A.C.S.1001 Fifth Avenue (across from the Metropolitan Museum of Art)New York, New YorkPhone: 212-452-2200Fax: 212-452-2208Email: mcopeland@icnt.netWebsite: http://www.drcopeland.com'>http://www.drcopeland.comClitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the Web page, but Dr. Copeland will makeconsultations to perform this surgery upon request.New York City (Manhattan)Neil C. Goodman, M.D. and Martin C. Hyman, M.D.Lite Touch Medical P.C.7 West 51st St., 2nd FloorNew York, New York 10019Phone: (212) 397-7650Fax: (212) 397-7653Website: http://www.litetouchmedical.com/vaginalrejuvenation2.html'>http://www.litetouchmedical.com/vaginalrejuvenation2.htmlDrs. Goodman and Hyman provide a number of before and after pictures of labiaplasties theyhave performed, including one that was both a labiaplasty and hoodectomy.New York City (Manhattan)John G. Hunter, M.D., F.A.C.S.47 East 63rd Street(Btw. Park and Madison Aves.)New York, NY 10021Phone: (212) 751-4444Fax: (212) 753-0516Website: http://www.labiacosmetic.com'>http://www.labiacosmetic.comEmail: jgh@labiacosmetic.comManhattan and Great NeckDr. Thomas W. Loeb994 Fifth AvenueNew York, NY 10028Phone: (212) 327-3700Fax: (212) 327-4506http://www.labialdr.com'>http://www.labialdr.comGreat Neck, New York1000 Northern Boulevard, Suite 340Great Neck, NY 11021Tel: (516) 487-3134Fax: (212) 327-4506New York City (Brooklyn):New York Urologic InstituteVitaly Raykhman, M.D.Brooklyn location:1664 East 14th Street (corner of Kings highway)Suite 101Brooklyn, NY 11229Manhattan location:New York Urologic Institute380 2nd Ave. (corner of E. 22nd)10th Floor, Suite 1000Phone.: (718) 375-2100Toll Free: (877) 714-1444Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.comWebsite: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.htmlDr. Raykhman only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.BrooklynDr. Ayman A. Shahine MD. FACS, FACOG334 86th St.Brooklyn, NY 11209Phone: 646-385-7882http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-raykhman.htmlNew JerseyThomas Theocharides, MDNew Beginnings Medical Spa and Vein Institute30 State Rte. 34 North, Suite 7Colts Neck, NJ 07722Phone: 732-308-1818Fax: 732-308-0810http://www.mybodybeautiful.net'>http://www.mybodybeautiful.netPennsylvania (Philadelphia area)Mark Solomon, M.D, F.A.C.S.191 Presidential Blvd., Suite LN 24Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004Phone: 610-667-7070http://www.marksolomonmd.com/'>http://www.marksolomonmd.com/Washington, D.C. areaDr. M. Tavallali, M.D., F.A.C.S.3299 Woodburn Rd., Suite 310Annandale, VA 22003Phone: (703) 876-9400also,5530 Wisconsin Ave., Suite 1135Chevy Chase, MD 20815Phone: (301) 907-3838Website: http://www.tavmd.com'>http://www.tavmd.comBaltimore, MarylandFemale plastic surgeon:Karen E. Boyle, M.D.Chesapeake Urology Associates at Greater Baltimore Medical Center (GBMC)Physicians Pavilion North6535 North Charles Street, Suite 625Baltimore, MD 21204Phone: 410-825-5454Fax: 410-825-5811Email: kboyle@cua.mdWebpage: http://www.drkarenboyle.com/femalesexualhealth.html'>http://www.drkarenboyle.com/femalesexualhealth.htmlIB. SoutheastAtlanta, GeorgiaFemale plastic surgeon:Susan E. Kolb M.D.Plastikos Surgery Center4370 Georgetown SquareAtlanta, GA 30338Phone: 770-457-4677Email: drkolb@mindspring.com (Dr. Kolb would rather be telephoned to discuss the procedure,however, rather than emailed)Webpage: http://www.plastikos.com'>http://www.plastikos.comClitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the web page, but Dr. Kolb will do consultations to dothis surgery upon request.Atlanta, Georgia areaAtlanta Urogynecology AssociatesJohn R. Miklos M.D.3400 Old Milton ParkwayBuilding C, Suite 330Alpharetta, Georgia 30005Phone: 770-475-0862 E-mail: doc@clitoralunhooding.comWebsites: http://www.lvratlanta.com,'>http://www.lvratlanta.com, http://www.clitoralunhooding.com/dr-miklos.html'>http://www.clitoralunhooding.com/dr-miklos.htmlHis website also includes photos of before and after hoodectomies and labiaplasties.Boca Raton, FloridaFemale plastic surgeon:Dr. Pamela J. Loftus900 NW 13th St. Suite 103Boca Raton, FL 33486Phone: (561) 394-7494Website: http://www.drloftusplasticsurgery.com'>http://www.drloftusplasticsurgery.comHer website lists hoodectomy as one of her specialties and also shows two pictures of results fromlabiaplasties she has performed.Bradenton, FloridaFemale plastic surgeon:Dr. Denise L. BakerBaker Medical Arts & Wellness Institute5225 Manatee Avenue WestBradenton, FL 34209 Phone: (941) 761-9757 or 1-888-50BOTOXEmail: info@twifla.comWebsite: http://www.twifla.com/index.html'>http://www.twifla.com/index.html also: http://www.bakermedicalarts.'>http://www.bakermedicalarts.com/vaginal_rejuvenation.htmDr. Baker lists hoodectomy as one of the surgical procedures she offers at the clinic, and alsoprovides two before and after photos of her results.Clearwater, FloridaFemale plastic surgeon:Jennifer S. Hayes, DO, FACOOG2695 Ulmerton Rd.Clearwater, FL 33762Phone: (727) 540-0414Fax: (727) 540-0672E-mail: drjenniferhayes@gmail.comWebsite: http://www.visionarycentreforwomen.com'>http://www.visionarycentreforwomen.comFort Lauderdale, FloridaEmerald Lakes Professional CenterDr. Bernard Stern, M.D.3109 Stirling RoadSuite 100Fort Lauderdale, FLPhone: (954) 981-3223Cell: (954) 483-7929Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.comWebsite: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-stern.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-stern.htmlMiami, FloridaDr. Phillip Craft, M.D.8720 North Kendall Drive, Suite 112Miami, FL 33176Phone: (877) 682-3288Website: http://www.drphillipcraft.com/Welcome.aspx'>http://www.drphillipcraft.com/Welcome.aspxBaton Rouge, LouisianaDr. Charles Gruenwald, MD FACSAssociates in Plastic Surgery, Baton Rouge Louisiana8425 Cumberland PlaceBaton Rouge, Louisiana 70806Phone: (225) 924-7514Email: Dr.C.Gruenwald@gmail.comWebsite: http://70.164.22.68/Labiaplasty/Dr. Gruenwald lists hoodectomy as one of the surgical procedures he offers at the clinic, but onlyprovides photos of the results of labiaplasties he has performed.IC. MidwestWestchester, Hinsdale, and La Grange, IllinoisDr. Arturo Menchaca, MD2450 S Wolf Rd.Suite IWestchester, Illinois 60154Phone: 708-492-0650Fax: 708-492-0647 Hinsdale hospital120 N. OakHinsdale, IllinoisPhone: 630-856-9000La Grange Memorial Hospital5101 S. Willow Springs RoadLa Grange, IllinoisPhone: 708-245-9900Website: http://www.atmenchaca.yourmd.com/'>http://www.atmenchaca.yourmd.com/Dr. Menchaca supplies before and after pictures of labiaplasties and also clitoral unhoodings atwhat he identifies at his “main site,” which can be reached by a click on the right side of thescreen at the site noted here.Chicago, Illinois:Dr. Rigo Mendoza, M.D.Chicagoland Plastic Surgery1020 East Ogden AvenueSuite 210Naperville, IL 60563Phone: (630) 305-0331Fax: (630) 305-0289Watertower Surgicenter845 North Michigan AvenueSuite 930EChicago, IL 60611Phone: (312) 251-0331Center for Reconstructive Surgery6311 W. 95th StreetOak Lawn, IL 60453Phone: (708) 354-8097Website: http://www.plastic-handsurgery.com/procedures.htm'>http://www.plastic-handsurgery.com/procedures.htmChicago, Illinois areaDr. Allan Parungao, M.D.610 S. Maple Ave., Suite 2600Oak Park, IL 60304Phone: (708) 258-5009Website: http://parungaopasticsurgery.com/index.htmlChicago, Illinois areaDr. Otto J. Placik, M.D., F.A.C.S.Associated Plastic Surgeons, SCMD Aesthetics Skin Care Center880 West Central RoadSuite 3100Arlington Heights, IL 60005Phone: (847) 398-1660also,680 North Lake Shore DriveSuite 830Chicago, IL 60611Phone: (312) 787-5313Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.comWebsite: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-placik.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-placik.htmlDr. Placik only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.Two locations in IndianaDr. Ronald K. Downs, MD, FACSDr. Patrick Viscardi, M.D.The Centre, P.C.Comprehensive Plastic SurgeryWebsite: http://www.thecentrepc.com'>http://www.thecentrepc.comElkhart OfficeRiverpointe Medical Building500 Arcade Ave., Suite 300Elkhart, IN 46514Phone: 574-296-9100Fax: 574-293-1511Chesterton OfficeDuneland Health & Wellness Institute810 Michael Drive, Suite KChesterton, IN 46304Phone: 219-395-9200Fax: 219-926-3534Kansas City, Kansas, area:Premier Plastic Surgery, PADr. Federico Gonzales, M.D., F.A.C.S.Doctors Building 120375 West 151st Street, Suite 370Olathe, Kansas 66061Phone: (913) 782-0707Fax: (913) 782-5813Website: http://www.ppskc.com/office.html'>http://www.ppskc.com/office.htmlOr: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-gonzalez.html'>http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-gonzalez.htmlEmail: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.comDr. Stanton only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed, but hiswebsite states that he will perform clitoral hood removal surgery.ID. West and SouthwestBryan, TexasBoard Certified OB/GYN in Bryan Texas, Dr. Royal H. Benson, III has been performing thissurgery for twenty years and has a practice that specializes in female genital refinementprocedures, including hoodectomy, which he lists as one of his specialties. Go to http://www.femalegenitalrefinement.com/, which also shows several before and after pictures ofhoodectomies (with labiaplasties) he has performed. Dr. Benson also provides a patient casestudy.The Southwest Center for Female Genital Refinement3740 Copperfield DriveSuite 105Bryan, Texas 77802Phone: 979-412-0358Fax: 979-776-1314Dallas, TexasDr. Vasdev RaiCosmetic Surgical Center7777 Forest LaneSuite C-612Dallas, Texas 75230Tel.: 972- 992-3511Toll Free: 800-558-7355Website: http://www.dallas-labiaplasty.com/clitoral-hood-refinement.htmlPhoenix, ArizonaDr. Scott Gulinson, M.D., F.A.C.O.G.The Laser Vaginal Rejuvenation Institute of Phoenix18555 N. 79th AvenueSuite E-101Glendale, AZ 85308Phone: (602) 717-3930Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.comWebsite: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-gulinson.htmlDr. Gulinson only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.Denver area: Englewood, ColoradoDr. Oscar A. Aguirre, M.D. F.A.S.C.O.G.Pelvic Specialty Care9800 Mt. Pyramid Court Ste 300Englewood, Colorado 80112Phone: (303) 322-0500Website: http://www.lvrdenver.com/Hoodectomy is not mentioned at Dr. Aguirre’s website, but his office contacted this websiteasking to be listed as one that performed this procedure.Boise, IdahoDean E. Sorensen M.D., F.A.C.S.Sorenson Cosmetic Surgery Center of Idaho250 Bobwhite Court, Suite 120Boise, ID 83706Tel.: 208-333.0200Website: http://www.sorensenbass.com/labiaplasty.htmlDraper, UtahDr. Robert LaVonMoody, DOBiorestoration Clinic12340 S 450 EDraper, UT 84020Phone: (801) 501-9797Website: http://www.biorestoration.comHood reduction is listed as one of the treatments available at the clinic here: http://www.biorestoration.com/treatments/tped.htmlIE. West CoastTorrance and Los Alamitos, CaliforniaFemale plastic surgeon:Linda Swanson, M.D., F.A.C.S.23560 Madison Suite #105Torrance, CA 90505Phone: 562-596-0018Fax: 562-596-0113Email: lindaswansonmd@email.msn.comWebsite: http://www.plasticsurgeryforme.com/home.htmlDr. Swanson also has an office in Los Alamitos:3801 Katella Ave., Suite 402Los Alamitos, CA 90720(Same phone, fax, email, and website as above)Clitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the Web page, but Dr. Swanson will makeconsultations to perform this surgery upon request.Beverly HillsA plastic surgeon who performs this surgery actually has a web page dedicated to the sorts ofprocedures he performs. Most of the information there regarding female genital surgery pertains tolabiaplasty (with before and after pictures provided), but he also mentions removal of an excess ofhood as an available option. Office Address:Dr. Gary Alter416 North Bedford Drive, Suite 400Beverly Hills, CA 90210Phone: 310-275-5566Fax: 310-271-0521Email: altermd@earthlink.netWebsite: http://www.altermd.comDr. Alter also has an office in New York:461 Park Avenue South7th Floor SuiteNew York, New York 10016The phones for this office are listed as the same for his Beverly Hills Office at his website.Dr Alter’s work is mentioned in the article in, “I Had Cosmetic Surgery on My Genitals,” MarieClaire magazine, February, 2000. The article lists "clitoroplasty" as one of the available genitalsurgeries, and provides the following definition of "clitoroplasty":“The hood of the clitoris is removed for heightened sensitivity.”(Most references to “clitoroplasty” in medical journals and reports reserve this term for theshaping of a clitoris in cases of infants with ambiguous genitals, or for those seeking sex changesfrom male to female.)Dr. Alter’s work is also mentioned in “The New Sex Surgeries,” Cosmopolitan magazine,November, 1998, p.146.Dr. Alter explicates his special technique for labiaplasty in “A New Technique for Aesthetic LabiaMinora Reduction,” Annals of Plastic Surgery 40, 1998, p. 287.Dr. Alter also published an article reporting a follow-up study of his own patients' degree ofsatisfaction with their results in Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery 2008 Dec. 122(6), 1780-9.An abstract of this study may be found here. Beverly HillsModern Institute of Plastic SurgeryDr. Ryan Stanton M.D., F.A.C.S.9090 Burton WayBeverly Hills, CA 90211Phone: 310-278-0077Email: doc@labiaplastysurgeon.comWebsite: http://www.labiaplastysurgeon.com/dr-stanton.htmlDr. Stanton only provides before and after photos of labiaplasties he has performed.Beverly Hills (with satellite offices also in Encino and Orange County)Dr. David Glick433 N. Camden Dr.Beverly Hills, California 90210Phone: 310-887-4406Fax: 310-887-4409Website: http://www.drdavidglick.com/breast_body.html#labiaplastysBeverly Hills and Agoura HillsRobert A. Gutstein, M.D. F.A.C.S. (Director)Plastic Surgery Centers1125 South Beverly Drive #600Beverly Hills, CAPhone: 310-277-0910 or 800-339-4968Another office:Plastic Surgery Centers28222 Agoura Rd. Suite 102Agoura Hills, CAPhone: 818-991-6436 or 805-496-6551Email: newyou@plasticsurgerycenters.comWebsite: http://www.plasticsurgerycenters.comAn information request form is offered at the website:http://www.plasticsurgerycenters.com/Info_Request/info_request.htmlClitoral hood removal is not mentioned on the web page, but Dr. Gutstein will perform thissurgery upon request. Based upon private information I have received from one of his patients,Dr. Gutstein tends not to remove the entire clitoral hood, when he performs this form of surgery,but prefers instead to trim it back just enough to expose the tip or glans of the clitoris. Inperforming a labiaplasty, however, Dr. Gutstein removed her entire labia minora (inner labia).Beverly HillsDr. Edward JacobsonCosmetic Vagina Surgery9735 Wilshire Blvd.Beverly Hills, CA 90212Tel.: 302-869-8360Email: drjacobson@cosmeticvaginasurgery.comWebsite: http://www.cosmeticvaginasurgery.comLos Angeles, CaliforniaDavid L. Matlock, MD, MBA, FACOGLaser Vaginal Rejuvenation Institute - Los Angeles9201 Sunset Blvd, Ste 406Los Angeles, CA 90069Telephone: (310) 859-9052Fax: (310) 859-7792Website: http://www.drmatlock.comEmail contact is provided at the website.Laguna Beach, CaliforniaDr. Red M. Alinsod, MDThe Women’s Center31852 Coast Highway, Suite200Laguna Beach, CA 92651-6765Phone: 877-4-UROGYN, 949-499-5311Website: http://www.urogyn.org/avs_clitoral.htmlEmail: info@urogyn.orgEncinoS. Sean Younai, M.D. F.A.C.S. (Director)California Center for Plastic Surgery16311 Ventura Blvd., Suite 1010Encino, CA 91436Phone: 818-386-1222 or 877-434-4873Email: info@beautifulself.comWebsite: http://www.beautifulself.com/p_labiaplasty.htmDr. Younai mentions clitoral de-hooding as an optional addition to a labiaplasty, but I knowsomeone on whom Dr. Younai performed just a hoodectomy (without a labiaplasty) with goodresults. Dr. Younai prefers not to remove the entire clitoral hood, but will remove enough touncover the tip or glans of the clitoris.Beverly Hills, Orange County, and EncinoWebsite: http://www.newmenow.comBeverley Hills, Orange County, Encino, CA1-877-639-6301(I was not able to get more information than this from the site.)Lake Tahoe, CaliforniaThe Tahoe Body Clinic589 Tahoe Keys Blvd., Suite E5-8S. Lake Tahoe, CA 96150Phone: 530-541-3355 or 800-742-7387Fax: 530-541-0110Email: info@tahoeclinic.comWebsite: http://www.tahoeclinic.comClitoral hood removal is not mentioned in the website, but several women say they had thesurgery done there, and I have subsequently confirmed that the surgery is available at the TahoeClinic, which has extensive experience in performing this procedure.San Francisco Bay Area: Los GatosFemale plastic surgeon:Dr. Rosanne MayhewFor Women by Women555 Knowles Dr., Suite 203Los Gatos, California 95030Phone: (408) 871-1885Fax: (408) 871-8405Website: http://drmayhew.comAlthough hoodectomy is not mentioned at her website, Dr. Mayhew reported to this website thatshe has performed numerous hoodectomies.San FranciscoFemale Plastic SurgeonDr. Usha Rajagopal, M.D.San Francisco Plastic Surgery490 Post St, Suite 430San Francisco, CA 94102Phone: 415-392-3333http://www.sfcosmeticsurgery.com/index.htmSee also:http://www.labiaplastysurgery.org/Dr. Rajagopal does not mention hoodectomy at the first of the two above sites, but does at thesecond. She has 14 years of experience with labiaplasty surgery, but does not say how muchexperience she has with hoodectomy. The latter procedure, however, is a good deal lesscomplicated and difficult to perform well, so she is presumably very well qualified to performhoodectomies.SacramentoDr. Charles Perry3800 J Street, Suite 210Sacramento, California 95816Phone: 916-248-4447http://www.sacramentoplastics.comSacramento Area: Davis, CaliforniaDr. Michael Goodman, M.D.1340 E. Covell Blvd., Suite 102Davis, CA 95616Tel.: (530) 753-2787Website: http://pelvicsupport-aesthetics.com/ II. Outside the United States: CanadaToronto, OntarioRobert H. Stubbs, FRCPS (Canada), FACS (US)Cosmetic Surgicentre99 Yorkville Ave., Suite 212Toronto, OntarioCanada M5R 3K5Tel.: 416-927-9900Fax: 416-927-9189Email: rhs@psurg.comWebsite: http://www.psurg.comOn the website, Dr. Stubbs shows some examples of his surgeries:Before and after pictures of a “clitoral unhooding” (which seems also to have included alabiaplasty).Before and after pictures of a “genital enhancement” (which seems to have included both alabiaplasty and at least a partial removal of the clitoral hood.I recommend anyone interested in this surgery to have a look at these pictures to judge theaesthetic effects of the surgery. Obviously, results will vary for different patients.TorontoToronto Cosmetic Clinic110 - 5400 Yonge StreetToronto, Ontario, Canada M2N 5R5 (North York)Tel. 416-SURGERY (416-221-5554)toll free: 1-888-LIPO-888Fax 416-221-8321Email: info@tcclinic.comWebsite: http://www.tcclinic.com/vaginal_rejuvenation/prepuce-reduction.phpMontreal, QuebecSpa Diva MedicalLes Cours Mont Royal, 1455 Peel Street Suite# 111 (metro Level)Downtown Montreal QuebecCanada H3A 1T5Phone: 514-905-1234Fax: 514-905-1235Website: http://www.spadivamedical.comCalgary, AlbertaThe Allan Centre for Women12100 Macleod Trail SE, suiteCalgary AlbertaCanada T2J 7G9Phone: 403-271-2550Fax: 403-271-4546Toll free: 877-225-2141Website: http://www.Allencentreforwomen.comIII. Outside the United States: United KingdomLondonThe Hurlingham Clinic & Spa67 Studdridge StreetLondon SW6 3TDPhone: 020 7348 6380Email: info@hurlinghamclinic.co.ukWebsite: http://www.hurlinghamclinic.co.uk/LondonProfile Cosmetic Surgery144 Harley StreetLondon, W1G 7LEPhone: 0870 444 0567Website: http://www.profilecosmeticsurgery.co.uk/LondonDr. Edward Jacobson112 Harley StreetLondon W1G 7JQTel: (020) 7908 3860Fax: (020) 7908 3879Line to U.S. office: 001 203 8698360Email: drjacobson@cosmeticvaginasurgery.comWebsite: http://www.cosmeticvaginasurgery.comLondonRestore ClinicsLondon Medical Centre142-146 Harley StreetLondon W1G 7LEPhone: 0207 935 0023Email: info@gynecosmetics.comWebsite: http://www.gynecosmetics.comLondonLondon Bridge Plastic SurgerySt Olaf House, 13 Tooley StreetLondon SE1 2PEPhone: 0845 009 2775Email: enquiries@plasticsurgery-cji.co.ukWebsite: http://www.cjinglefield-plasticsurg.comNorwichPlastic Surgery AssociatesBUPA HospitalOld Watton RdNorwichNR4 7TPPhone: 01603 250368 or 01603 255505Fax: 01603 250404Email: consultants@psapsa.co.ukWebsite: http://www.plasticsurgeryassociates.co.uk/Kent and East SussexDr. Brent TannerSpire Tunbridge Wells HospitalFordcombe RoadFordcombeKent TN3 0RDandSussex NuffieldWarren RoadWoodingdeanBrightonEast Sussex BN2 6DXPhone: 01892 740044Fax : 01892 740085Email: brenttanner@brenttanner.co.ukWebsite: http://www.brenttanner.co.uk/brentTanner.htmWest SussexA general webpage dedicated to gynaecologists in the UK, which explicitly mentions providingexpertise in hoodectomy may be found here: http://www.gynaecologists.co.ukThe link to the specific page on hoodectomy is here, and provides useful information about theprocedure and healing:The only specific gynaecologist mentioned on these pages is:Mr. F. PakarianGoring Hall HospitalBodiam AvenueGoring By SeaW. Sussex BN12 5ATPhone: 01903 770061Email: fpakarian@sussexgynaecologist.co.ukWebsite: http://www.sussexgynaecologist.co.ukNorth LincolnshireThe Lindsey Suite Private HealthcareScunthorpe General HospitalCliff GardensScunthorpeNorth Lincolnshire DN15 7BHPhone: (01724) 270377Email: lindseysuite@nlg.nhs.ukWebsite: http://www.nlg.nhs.uk/lindseysuite/treatment/gynaecology.htmA site that mentions clitoral hood removal as one of the procedures available, but does notgive a specific locationFemale plastic surgeon:Dr. Anna CamilleriWebsite: http://www.hymenrepair.co.ukPhone: 0845 4300 007Email: info@hymenrepair.co.ukSeveral locations around the UK: Go to their website for the one that is most convenientfor you.Classic HospitalsPhone: 08000 30 40 50.Website: http://www.classichospitals.com/treatmentdetails.asp?id=353Several locations around the UK: Go to their website for the clinic that is most convenientfor you.The Harley Medical GroupWebsite: http://www.harleymedical.co.uk/Phone: (UK) 0870 608 0066(Ireland) 1850 24 24 42Several locations around the UK: Go to the website for the clinic that is most convenientfor you.Surgi CareWebsite: http://www.surgicare.co.uk/Phone: 0800 62 22 22Email: Info@surgicare.co.ukInformation about several surgeons around the UKIt is possible that one of those listed above is the surgeon recommended by “IndependentCosmetic Surgery Advisor” Linda Briggs for surgeons in the UK.Phoenix House, Main StreetWelney, Norfolk, PE14 9RBPhone: 0044 (0) 1354 610368Fax: 0044 (0) 1354 610393Website: http://www.lindabriggs.biz/intimate_surgery/vaginoplasty.htm IV. Elsewhere in EuropeIrelandDr. Keith RobertsonTwo clinics:Dublin/WicklowCosmedico ClinicUnit C Glencormack Business Park(beside Avoca Handweavers)Kilmacanogue, Co. WicklowTel: 01-2014559WaterfordWhitfield ClinicButlerstown NorthCork RoadCo WaterfordTel: 051-359917E-mail: info@robertsoncosmeticsurgery.ieWebsite: http://www.robertsoncosmeticsurgery.ieBelgiumWellness KliniekGrotestraat 423600 GenkBelgiumPhone: +32(0) 89 329 500Fax: +32(0) 89 329 510Email: info@wellnesskliniek.comWebsite: http://www.wellnesskliniek.comGreeceKeep FeminaDr. BaderDr. PapadopoulouN.Zerva 20 Glyfada, Athens, GreeceTel. (+30)210.89.44.603Website: http://www.keepfemina.grV. South AmericaArgentinaPlenitasAv. Elcano 3111, C1426EJCCapital FederalBuenos Aires, ArgentinaUSA Office:2030 Western Avenue, Suite 502Seattle, WA 98101, USATelephone: USA & Canada: 1 877 639 0703 (Toll free)Email: info@plenitas.comWebsite: http://www.plenitas.comThese surgeries cost much less in Argentina than in the US, UK, or Europe.VI. AsiaAnkara, TurkeyTansu Küçük, MDWorking as a Professor in Obstetrics and Gynecology at Gülhane School of Medicine, Ankara.Phone: 90-312-4480295Cell: 90-542-4242627Fax: 90-312-448 0395Istanbul, TurkeyOzan Balik, MD(address not provided on website)Tel.: +90.216.491 26 95Website: http://www.estetikkadin.com/clitoris.htmlRussiaDr. Ross AndreyAesthetic Surgery Clinic,Moscow, RussiaPhone: +7 (495) 724 15 96Secretary Phone: +7 (495) 726 18 11Office Phone: +7 (499) 242 22 31Fax: +7 (495) 203 45 10Email: dr_ross@rambler.ruWebsite: http://dr-ross.ru/en/co2.htmlIndia Ashirwad HospitalAshirwad Enclave, Dehradun - 248 006, Uttaranchal (INDIA)Phone: +91 (135) 2763600, 2764600Email: rkalra@ashirwadhospital.comWebsite: http://www.cosmeticsurgeonindia.comSome nice results are shown at this page: http://www.cosmeticsurgeonindia.com/genitals.htm(Note: If inexpensive is what you want, this has to be the least expensive place on earth to havethe surgery done—the cost at their website for hoodectomy surgery is US$300!)IndiaThe surgery is listed as among available procedures at:Star Hospital and Research CentreDr. Ashutosh Soni80, Adinath Nagar, Seva Mandir Road,Fatehpura, Udaipur (Rajasthan)313001 IndiaPhone: 0294 - 2450982Mobile: 09928569121Email: dravsoni@yahoo.co.inWebsite: http://www.starhospitaludaipur.comIndiaDr. PrabhashB-20 First FloorDDA Shopping ComplexTagore gardenNew Delhi 27Batra Hospital and Medical Research CentreA-1/6 Ring Road, Rajouri GardenNear GurudwaraNew Delhi-27Phone +91-9311614424+91-11-25191051Email: info@cosmeticprabhash.comEmail: dr_prabhash@yahoo.com.inWebsite: http://www.cosmeticprabhash.comIndiaA general website for medical tourism in India, which lists hoodectomy as one of the availableprocedures, may be found at: http://www.medicaltourism-india.in/cosmetic-surgery.htmlRepublic of KoreaThe Bellrajue ClinicWebsite: http://www.bell-rajue.comThe site is all in Korean, which I can’t read; but a Google search suggests that the surgery isavailable at the clinic.Republic of KoreaThe ImoaclinicWebsite: http://www.imoaclinic.comPhone: 080-063-7582Fax: 063-840-0701The site is all in Korean, which I can’t read; but a Google search suggests that the surgery isavailable at the clinic.Republic of KoreaAnother website Google picked up for the surgery in Korea was:http://www.jamowh.co.kr/wellbeing/program_09.htmlThailandSeveral surgeons and hospitals from which to choose. Go to the website for medical tourism at:Website: http://www.thaimakeover.com/cosmetic-plastic-surgery-bangkok-thailand/labiaplasty-bangkok-thailand.htmlSingaporeBalkis Family Clinic631 Bedok Reservoir Road#01-968 Singapore 470631Phone: +65 64454711Fax: +65 67424112SingaporeAdidah Family Clinic and Surgery821 Tampines Street81 #01-210 Singapore 520821Phone: +65 67845435SingaporeMedina Medical CentreDr Suraidah AhmatBlk 201D Tampines St 21#01-1109 Singapore 524201Phone: +65 65882756Malaysia(Note: hoodectomy is quite common in Malaysia, a Moslem country, where the practice is knownas sunna circumcision--see the page on this website for hoodectomy in Islam. Accordingly,Malaysia is an excellent place to have the procedure done, where it can also be done veryinexpensively. I have heard reports that the procedure can cost as little as US$50 at the followinglocation.)Pusrawi: Pusat Rawatan Islam or Islamic Medical Center132-138 Wisma Baitulmal Jalan Ipoh, Kuala Lumpur, 51200Malaysiaor, the address given at the website:Lot 149Jalan Tun Razak50400 Kuala LumpurPhone: 603 40414922 or 603 2687 5000Fax: 603 40414884 or 603 2687 5001Email: info@pusrawi.com.myWebsite: http://www.pusrawi.com.myPlease remember that you separate "Islam" from "Interpretations thereof." That is not something many Muslims do. I assume you agree with Irshad Manji that the pre-Islamic tribalism of the Arabic world often gets package-dealt with Islam and that the two things should be separated (and honestly I agree with you). However, just saying that many Muslims don't agree with you, and I think you come close to declaring them "not Muslims" (you have a frozen abstraction; the wider class being "Muslims" and the subclass being "Muslims who's interpretation of Islam you agree with"). I'm not saying you're wrong theologically or anything, I just think you are freezing your abstractions in the same way that an Evangelical that claims "Catholics aren't Christians" is.Most Muslims do agree with me on this issue and so do most Muslim scholars.I don't think you understand the repercussions of saying a Muslim is not a Muslim.. In Islam we believe that to do so is a very serious accusation and if we're wrong, that God will consider us not Muslim.. So I am very careful not to simply label people like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiodekadent Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) Adonis,Of course some people live good lives in Kenya. This doesn't mean that SOME (or even a FEW) Muslim Kenyans, back during the time Ayaan Hirsi Ali was born, may have indeed practiced female genital mutilation. Again, you don't have to defend every single Muslim. Many Muslims are absolute barbarians; this doesn't mean all Muslims are. You aren't "less Muslim" for being a Muslim that is against the terrorists and anti-Western types, and the fact you believe your interpretation of Islam is compatible with Western civilization does not make you a lesser Muslim either. Honestly, from my contact with you (as limited as it is) I think your interpretation of Islam is actually quite positive (my perspective is anything but unbaised, but out of the multiple 'variants' of Islam I am familiar with, yours seems quite benign indeed). So please don't feel like you have to justify every single aspect of "Islamic Civilization." Many Christians wouldn't try and justify every war fought in the name of their religion. As for male circumcision, If you don't wish to argue it with me, I won't pursue it. I can agree to disagree, even if I do indeed disagree with the practice.I can understand your caution with the labelling. However (and please remember this is from a non-Muslim perspective), I am simply acknowledging the fact that people can follow the same nominal religion or philosophy, and still disagree with each other in an intellectually honest manner. Edited August 21, 2010 by studiodekadent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) Male circumcision is actually compulsory in Islam and I'm not even going to bother arguing that with you Am I correct in concluding that you are not going to bother arguing anything which is compulsory in Islam? it's not illegal and is not harmful and parents are legally allowed to choose it for their children. That something is legally allowed does not mean it is harmless. Just think of the many things which were regarded as legal and are now illegal in many countries, like. e.g. smoking in restaurants. You call hoodectomy performed on children "not harmful". Not harmful in what respect? That it does not affect vital organs, just as e. g. cutting off an earlobe would not affect vital organs? Have you ever devoted any thought on e. g. the psychological effects of such procedure? You speak up a lot against 'tribalism', but male circumcision is actually a remainder of (religious) tribalism. Next, to your point that a hoodectomy is FGM.. Female Genital Mutilation is illegal in many countries like the USA and UK and most of the world in fact, however you can still get a hoodectomy in these countries.. In # 21, Adonis then posted a list which also includes doctors in the USA who perform hoodectomy. Adonis, please answer this question: Which of these US doctors perfom hoodectomy on female infants and children for non-medical reasons? Let's stay focused: We are not discussing the issue of hood surgery performed for medical reasons. Nor are we discussing procedures adults want to have performed on their bodies for "esthetic" or whatever other reasons. To put it bluntly: if an adult woman wants hoodectomy (or labioplasty or whatever else) performed on her body, that's her own own business. If the woman decides to perform such procedures on her child, that's a different issue. Let's not get things mixed up here, since this is only going to dilute what it is about. Edited August 22, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 It seems Xray's value subjectivity is trying to assert an objective reference.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 (edited) It seems Xray's value subjectivity is trying to assert an objective reference.--BrantBrant, The posts by "Libertarian Muslim" as he now calls himself here, are an excellent illustrationn of the subjectivity of moral values, as well as a clear demonstration on his part of the supreme of those subjective values in his life: Islam. Islam first, and everything else (and I do mean everything), is subordinate to that supreme value of his. It's that simple. Which is why I'm totally convinced that LM would never act against what his religion commands him to do.This is also the reason why the 100 per cent believer, when confronted with criticism of the religion, either of parts or even of the religion's premises themselves (as e. g. A. Hirsi and Wafa Sultan have done), has no choice but to reject such criticism as a whole. So the total believer cannot concede to the critic that he/she may have point here and there. For the belief system he adheres to closes that road. This pattern btw. can be observed by all kinds of firm believers in a religion or an ideology. Edited September 19, 2010 by Xray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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