"Israeli Raid: Statist Logic to its Deadly Extreme"

[anthony]

Turkey has been and should be a natural ally to Israel. It is a secular representative democracy, a NATO member and has a terrorist problem with the PKK that is as bad or worse than the Israeli/Palestinian situation. The fact that there are Islamists in Turkey who want to carry out humanitarian flotillas should be irrelevant. Imagine if the United States had a group from Boston that wanted to provide humanitarian aid to poor Catholics in Northern Ireland and the British government boarded the ship in international waters and opened fire. There would be diplomatic hell to pay. The same thing is happening here.

Jim

You seem to be largely ignorant of Turkey today and even more ignorant about geo-politics. Eight years ago your Turkey comments would have probably passed muster.

--Brant

Brant,

I know that the 2007 Turkish presidential election shifted things somewhat but Turkey is still largely secular. Picking a fight with Turkey seems like a bad move for the Israelis. The government in Turkey used to be actively anti-religion, now they allow private religious groups and organizations which has resulted in things like this flotilla. So what is it that you specifically object to and maybe I can learn something?

I'm a Netanyahu supporter, but the Israelis seem to have a habit of stepping in it lately. The settler issue and now this. I don't mind if the Israelis build settlements in East Jerusalem, but they shouldn't do it and pretend to the United States that they want a negotiated solution right now. Netanyahu is the best prime minister Israel could have, but I'm afraid the missteps of his government have been rather glaring lately.

Jim

The bloody 'raid' incident is always going to be misunderstood if one does not differentiate between a handful of panicked soldiers, and the policies of their nation.

'Israel' did not do anything here; human beings did.

Whether or not one agrees with the reason for a blockade of Gaza, is another issue altogether, and of course a critical one.

In the case of Turkey, though, it was government policy that supported the flotilla and the mad men on board one ship - despite what was tantamount to pleading by Israeli officials to use other options - and the majority of blame must be laid at its doorstep.

What is alarming, I agree, is why Turkey is shifting away from Israel to possibly fall in line with hard-line Arab States.

With this provocative action they are sending the message out, loud and clear.

Israel values its alliance with Turkey, and would not deliberately sacrifice it.

James, I ask you, which nation is "picking a fight"?

Tony

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Turkey has been and should be a natural ally to Israel. It is a secular representative democracy, a NATO member and has a terrorist problem with the PKK that is as bad or worse than the Israeli/Palestinian situation. The fact that there are Islamists in Turkey who want to carry out humanitarian flotillas should be irrelevant. Imagine if the United States had a group from Boston that wanted to provide humanitarian aid to poor Catholics in Northern Ireland and the British government boarded the ship in international waters and opened fire. There would be diplomatic hell to pay. The same thing is happening here.

Jim

You seem to be largely ignorant of Turkey today and even more ignorant about geo-politics. Eight years ago your Turkey comments would have probably passed muster.

--Brant

Brant,

I know that the 2007 Turkish presidential election shifted things somewhat but Turkey is still largely secular. Picking a fight with Turkey seems like a bad move for the Israelis. The government in Turkey used to be actively anti-religion, now they allow private religious groups and organizations which has resulted in things like this flotilla. So what is it that you specifically object to and maybe I can learn something?

I'm a Netanyahu supporter, but the Israelis seem to have a habit of stepping in it lately. The settler issue and now this. I don't mind if the Israelis build settlements in East Jerusalem, but they shouldn't do it and pretend to the United States that they want a negotiated solution right now. Netanyahu is the best prime minister Israel could have, but I'm afraid the missteps of his government have been rather glaring lately.

Jim

The bloody 'raid' incident is always going to be misunderstood if one does not differentiate between a handful of panicked soldiers, and the policies of their nation.

'Israel' did not do anything here; human beings did.

Whether or not one agrees with the reason for a blockade of Gaza, is another issue altogether, and of course a critical one.

In the case of Turkey, though, it was government policy that supported the flotilla and the mad men on board one ship - despite what was tantamount to pleading by Israeli officials to use other options - and the majority of blame must be laid at its doorstep.

What is alarming, I agree, is why Turkey is shifting away from Israel to possibly fall in line with hard-line Arab States.

With this provocative action they are sending the message out, loud and clear.

Israel values its alliance with Turkey, and would not deliberately sacrifice it.

James, I ask you, which nation is "picking a fight"?

Tony

Tony,

1. I don't agree with your implicit assessment that Israel can extend a blockade into international waters under all circumstances. Regardless of the intent of the flotilla, until they pass into Israeli or Gazan territorial waters it's debatable that they've committed an aggressive action. Israel has enforced a 20 mile exclusion zone, but that is a practical matter for them that is murky under international maritime law.

2. You are using special pleading on behalf of the Israeli soldiers as not instruments of Israeli policy, but a private flotilla as an instrument of Turkish policy. It was not the panic of the Israeli soldiers, but the boarding of the ship in international waters that was ill-advised. In any case, Israel has backed its soldiers which asserts that they were acting within the bounds of Israeli policy.

Jim

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jim,

This is a matter of force on both sides. Israel said, "You ain't comin' in," and the suicide flotilla said, "Yes we are."

Both were engaged in force.

Maybe you see moral issues when things get to that point, but to me, that is a point where morality will not do you any good. That badass is going to win.

So if there is any value at stake in a violent confrontation, I say it is to make sure you're the badass.

There is an exception if you're Gandhi. But aping Gandhi doesn't work if you're filmed in a gang using planks and pipes to beat the living daylights out of a man who is fallen.

That's not only pseudo Gandhi-ism, that's pseudo badass-ism.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Jim,

This is a matter of force on both sides. Israel said, "You ain't comin' in," and the suicide flotilla said, "Yes we are."

Both were engaged in force.

Maybe you see moral issues when things get to that point, but to me, that is a point where morality will not do you any good. That badass is going to win.

So if there is any value at stake in a violent confrontation, I say it is to make sure you're the badass.

There is an exception if you're Gandhi. But aping Gandhi doesn't work if you're filmed in a gang using planks and pipes to beat the living daylights out of a man who is fallen.

That's not only pseudo Gandhi-ism, that's pseudo badass-ism.

Michael

The badass didn't win. They simply isolated themselves pretty much to themselves and the US within the international community. If you want to talk about badasses, I'm not sure it's clear that Israel is a bigger badass than Turkey. Greece has half an island that used to be theirs occupied to prove that.

Jim

Edited June 6, 2010 by James Heaps-Nelson

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Michael,

As a footnote to my above post, what happens when Egypt finds Israel too much of a liability to keep up its end of the blockade? Currently, Egypt quite rightly does not want a bunch of terrorists using them as a conduit, however, a few more actions like the one Israel committed might tip the balance for them.

Jim

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The badass didn't win.

Jim,

Are you kidding? Israel stopped that flotilla cold in the water.

As it will stop others who try to breach its blockade.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

The badass didn't win.

Jim,

Are you kidding? Israel stopped that flotilla cold in the water.

As it will stop others who try to breach its blockade.

Michael

I repeat, what does Israel do when Egypt finds them enough of an annoyance that they simply cease their end of the blockade?

Jim

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jim,

That's another issue.

I was talking about when force meets force.

I see no gain in trying to muddy a clear outcome by saying things like Israel did not really win the encounter. Israel won it hands down--and showed that it will kill to enforce its borders. This anti-Israel thing throughout the world was pretty well organized on a PR campaign, but Israel won the encounter.

As to your question, I suspect Israel will do what Israel has always done when attacked.

Fight back.

And win.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Jim,

That's another issue.

I was talking about when force meets force.

I see no gain in trying to muddy a clear outcome by saying things like Israel did not really win the encounter. Israel won it hands down--and showed that it will kill to enforce its borders. This anti-Israel thing throughout the world was pretty well organized on a PR campaign, but Israel won the encounter.

As to your question, I suspect Israel will do what Israel has always done when attacked.

Fight back.

And win.

Michael

I doubt it. The only way I think Israel can win is to be unpredictable, which they are usually better at doing. This time they got played like a fiddle.

Jim

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This time they got played like a fiddle.

Jim,

PR-wise, we agree on this point.

Force-wise, I don't. I didn't see any Israeli killed, for instance...

Michael

[anthony]

Jim,

That's another issue.

I was talking about when force meets force.

I see no gain in trying to muddy a clear outcome by saying things like Israel did not really win the encounter. Israel won it hands down--and showed that it will kill to enforce its borders. This anti-Israel thing throughout the world was pretty well organized on a PR campaign, but Israel won the encounter.

As to your question, I suspect Israel will do what Israel has always done when attacked.

Fight back.

And win.

Michael

I doubt it. The only way I think Israel can win is to be unpredictable, which they are usually better at doing. This time they got played like a fiddle.

Jim

Jim,

On that we agree.

But to be played like a fiddle implies that one's motives are innocent and in good faith, doesn't it?

The whole, naively, low-key way the soldiers went about the intercept and boarding indicates this.

("Special pleading"? Moi? Never. Still, I stand by what I wrote.)

However,

WHAT THE HELL IS TURKEY UP TO?

Has Endogan cut a deal with Ahmadinejad? Is Turkey wanting to re-live its past glories, and regain control of the Med?

Endogan is considering (last I read) accompanying an aid ship to Gaza, with the Turkish Navy as escort.

That is scary.

The pattern that emerges from belligerent front line Arab states, is usually they test public sympathy - first, by concocting 'justifiable' confrontation, seeing how much encouragement they get, then launching attacks, or bombings.

The p.c. Western media has done its job well in softening us up, by breeding doubt and confusion.

And we sit around tut-tutting, and arguing the wrongs and rights ... and playing straight into the hands of those masterful spin doctors.

It's all deeply worrying.

Tony

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Jim,

That's another issue.

I was talking about when force meets force.

I see no gain in trying to muddy a clear outcome by saying things like Israel did not really win the encounter. Israel won it hands down--and showed that it will kill to enforce its borders. This anti-Israel thing throughout the world was pretty well organized on a PR campaign, but Israel won the encounter.

As to your question, I suspect Israel will do what Israel has always done when attacked.

Fight back.

And win.

Michael

I doubt it. The only way I think Israel can win is to be unpredictable, which they are usually better at doing. This time they got played like a fiddle.

Jim

Jim,

On that we agree.

But to be played like a fiddle implies that one's motives are innocent and in good faith, doesn't it?

The whole, naively, low-key way the soldiers went about the intercept and boarding indicates this.

("Special pleading"? Moi? Never. Still, I stand by what I wrote.)

However,

WHAT THE HELL IS TURKEY UP TO?

Has Endogan cut a deal with Ahmadinejad? Is Turkey wanting to re-live its past glories, and regain control of the Med?

Endogan is considering (last I read) accompanying an aid ship to Gaza, with the Turkish Navy as escort.

That is scary.

The pattern that emerges from belligerent front line Arab states, is usually they test public sympathy - first, by concocting 'justifiable' confrontation, seeing how much encouragement they get, then launching attacks, or bombings.

The p.c. Western media has done its job well in softening us up, by breeding doubt and confusion.

And we sit around tut-tutting, and arguing the wrongs and rights ... and playing straight into the hands of those masterful spin doctors.

It's all deeply worrying.

Tony

Tony,

I think Israel has pure motives, but their unnecessarily overstepping the bounds of international maritime law and their tactical blunder has put them in a bad position.

My opinion is that Erdogan doesn't really care that much about the Gaza situation beyond a few minor brownie points with some constituents at home, but needs leverage with the US to be able to play a freer hand in Northern Iraq taking out the PKK Kurdish terrorists, especially with the US on a timetable for withdrawal. Therefore, he's playing this situation for all it's worth knowing that the US will give him some concessions in Iraq to get him to shut up. The meeting with Ahmadinejad is just to apply pressure to the US for concessions. What better way than right when the US is trying to apply nuclear sanctions on Iran? Also, Erdogan can probably get Iran to leave him alone in Northern Iraq.

BTW, look for Egypt to ask for more foreign aid from the US in light of Gaza. Cash is king.

Jim

[Xray]

You mean . . . you were born before 1990?

I see that my trust in your ability to do the math was justified.

Brant's question is rhetorical.

I knew Jeff's question was rhetorical, Brant. That was quite obvious.

But in a debate, X expecting rhetorical questions to be treated as as such by debate opponents can turn out to be a non-sequitur. Therefore X may get answers to rhetorical questions he/she did not bargain for.

Speaking of questions, I asked Jeff if his idea of capitalism is the same as Rand's:

"When I say capitalism, I mean, full, pure, uncontrolled, unregulated, laissez-fare capitalism." (TOE, p. 37)

Question to JR: are of the same opinion as Rand?

This question of mine was not rhetorical. It was a genuine question. Still waiting for Jeff to reply.

That anyone should have to add the qualifiers "controlled", "uncontrolled", to Capitalism, says much about the state of world economies and the prevailing state of morality.

They are superfluous.

By nature and definition, Capitalism is anti-, and non-control.

I believe that was Brant's point.

What about capitalists whose goal is to 'control' the market?

My opinion is that Erdogan doesn't really care that much about the Gaza situation beyond a few minor brownie points with some constituents at home, but needs leverage with the US to be able to play a freer hand in Northern Iraq taking out the PKK Kurdish terrorists, especially with the US on a timetable for withdrawal. Therefore, he's playing this situation for all it's worth knowing that the US will give him some concessions in Iraq to get him to shut up. The meeting with Ahmadinejad is just to apply pressure to the US for concessions. What better way than right when the US is trying to apply nuclear sanctions on Iran? Also, Erdogan can probably get Iran to leave him alone in Northern Iraq.

Excellent post showing the complexity of the issue.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

What about capitalists whose goal is to 'control' the market?

What about them? A goal is one thing, means to a goal another.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Cash is king.

Jim,

Opa!!!

(That's a Brazilian yell of approval.)

Now how about oil and some good old fashioned Nazi leftovers to go along with that--with oil and mullah for all of humanity?

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Cash is king.

Jim,

Opa!!!

(That's a Brazilian yell of approval.)

Now how about oil and some good old fashioned Nazi leftovers to go along with that--with oil and mullah for all of humanity?

Michael

Michael,

I just don't think the current US administration or Israel understands Turkey very well. They seem to be stuck on stupid. Turkey has an awful terrorist problem that they have to solve and I don't think Erdogan cares very much about whose toes he has to step on to solve it. Turkey's new tilt toward Islam has much more to do with the fact that an understanding of Islam and credibility with the local population in Eastern and Southern Turkey has enabled Erdogan to be much more effective at fighting the PKK than his opponents or predecessors.

Also, Erdogan is trained in economics and his strong money and market-oriented reforms have made the Turkish economy much stronger. He values stability over all else and has normalized relations with Greece and Syria. The challenges of fighting the PKK have moved from intelligence cooperation which was instrumental in Abdullah Ocalan's capture in 1999 in Kenya with CIA assistance to active rooting out of PKK strongholds in Northern Iraq. Obama doesn't seem to get that this is priority number 1 for Turkey and he can't just talk about it and mouth bridge-building platitudes with Turkey.

Erdogan needs the local Islamic population in his fight against the PKK. This Gaza confrontation gives him the tools he needs to win the war with the PKK. He gets the overwhelming sympathy of the local Muslim population, he gets leverage with the US and Obama and he now has carrots to keep Iran out of Northern Iraq.

Jim

Edited June 7, 2010 by James Heaps-Nelson

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jim,

I don't think the USA or Europe has understood--or cared about--Turkey since well before the Ottoman empire.

Turkey to them is a bird Americans eat on Thanksgiving, not the land of the Turks.

Michael

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Egypt lifted their blockade this morning. Gazans are now free to come and go as they please.

Jim

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Jim,

I don't think the USA or Europe has understood--or cared about--Turkey since well before the Ottoman empire.

Turkey to them is a bird Americans eat on Thanksgiving, not the land of the Turks.

Michael

Michael,

You're exactly right. I had a classmate in graduate school who is Turkish and my brother had an extended visit to the country in 2005. I hope to visit Istanbul sometime.

Jim

Edited June 7, 2010 by James Heaps-Nelson

[Brant Gaede]

Egypt lifted their blockade this morning. Gazans are now free to come and go as they please.

Jim

I understand their blockade was ineffective anyway.

--Brant

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Egypt lifted their blockade this morning. Gazans are now free to come and go as they please.

Jim

I understand their blockade was ineffective anyway.

--Brant

I'm not sure what the flow of traffic and goods was through the Hamas-controlled tunnels, but my guess is that there will be a lot more traffic now.

Jim

[anthony]

Cash is king.

Jim,

Opa!!!

(That's a Brazilian yell of approval.)

Now how about oil and some good old fashioned Nazi leftovers to go along with that--with oil and mullah for all of humanity?

Michael

Michael,

I just don't think the current US administration or Israel understands Turkey very well. They seem to be stuck on stupid. Turkey has an awful terrorist problem that they have to solve and I don't think Erdogan cares very much about whose toes he has to step on to solve it. Turkey's new tilt toward Islam has much more to do with the fact that an understanding of Islam and credibility with the local population in Eastern and Southern Turkey has enabled Erdogan to be much more effective at fighting the PKK than his opponents or predecessors.

Also, Erdogan is trained in economics and his strong money and market-oriented reforms have made the Turkish economy much stronger. He values stability over all else and has normalized relations with Greece and Syria. The challenges of fighting the PKK have moved from intelligence cooperation which was instrumental in Abdullah Ocalan's capture in 1999 in Kenya with CIA assistance to active rooting out of PKK strongholds in Northern Iraq. Obama doesn't seem to get that this is priority number 1 for Turkey and he can't just talk about it and mouth bridge-building platitudes with Turkey.

Erdogan needs the local Islamic population in his fight against the PKK. This Gaza confrontation gives him the tools he needs to win the war with the PKK. He gets the overwhelming sympathy of the local Muslim population, he gets leverage with the US and Obama and he now has carrots to keep Iran out of Northern Iraq.

Jim

Jim,

Your assessment is very knowledgeable, confident and convincing.

I'd prefer my alarmist reaction to be very wrong - but something smells here...

Tony

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Cash is king.

Jim,

Opa!!!

(That's a Brazilian yell of approval.)

Now how about oil and some good old fashioned Nazi leftovers to go along with that--with oil and mullah for all of humanity?

Michael

Michael,

I just don't think the current US administration or Israel understands Turkey very well. They seem to be stuck on stupid. Turkey has an awful terrorist problem that they have to solve and I don't think Erdogan cares very much about whose toes he has to step on to solve it. Turkey's new tilt toward Islam has much more to do with the fact that an understanding of Islam and credibility with the local population in Eastern and Southern Turkey has enabled Erdogan to be much more effective at fighting the PKK than his opponents or predecessors.

Also, Erdogan is trained in economics and his strong money and market-oriented reforms have made the Turkish economy much stronger. He values stability over all else and has normalized relations with Greece and Syria. The challenges of fighting the PKK have moved from intelligence cooperation which was instrumental in Abdullah Ocalan's capture in 1999 in Kenya with CIA assistance to active rooting out of PKK strongholds in Northern Iraq. Obama doesn't seem to get that this is priority number 1 for Turkey and he can't just talk about it and mouth bridge-building platitudes with Turkey.

Erdogan needs the local Islamic population in his fight against the PKK. This Gaza confrontation gives him the tools he needs to win the war with the PKK. He gets the overwhelming sympathy of the local Muslim population, he gets leverage with the US and Obama and he now has carrots to keep Iran out of Northern Iraq.

Jim

Jim,

Your assessment is very knowledgeable, confident and convincing.

I'd prefer my alarmist reaction to be very wrong - but something smells here...

Tony

Tony,

You're right to be alarmist. One thing that's baffling to me is that this is really getting muted coverage in the US. I guess the latest is that Iran is planning a full scale slate of humanitarian assistance throughout Egypt. Now Iran will get to come across as the good guys for Gaza.

Jim

[Libertarian Muslim]

How about the Hamas logic?

Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by Israel

By the CNN Wire Staff

June 2, 2010

From the article:

Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.

If there is a philosophical objection to Israel setting a border and not allowing humanitarian aid to get through to Gaza, then surely there must be the same objection to Hamas setting a border with the same result.

I'm just sayin'...

Michael

The issue is that Israel has consistently blocked the importation of things like concrete from being brought into Gaza despite the fact that it's needed to rebuild the area after it's decimation in Israel's aggression in 2008.

The reason Hamas won't allow Israel to bring it in after that incident is because it would set a precedent which has previously shown not to work. That is, relying on the 'kindness' of the Israelis to allow such important goods in, it shouldn't have to go through Israel, it should be able to go directly into Palestinian ports.

If people are worried about weapons going through then set up a system of inspections to search for such weapons upon reaching Israeli waters or even in international waters and have international observers there too to ensure that Israel isn't committing piracy. If the vessel is found not to be carrying weapons then they should be let through to Gaza.

That didn't happen recently, it was the Israelis threatening the flotilla that if they don't turn away from heading towards Gaza that they'll be met with force to prevent them from reaching it. The people refused so the Israelis attacked.

[Brant Gaede]

The reason Hamas won't allow Israel to bring it in after that incident is because it would set a precedent which has previously shown not to work. That is, relying on the 'kindness' of the Israelis to allow such important goods in, it shouldn't have to go through Israel, it should be able to go directly into Palestinian ports.

If people are worried about weapons going through then set up a system of inspections to search for such weapons upon reaching Israeli waters or even in international waters and have international observers there too to ensure that Israel isn't committing piracy. If the vessel is found not to be carrying weapons then they should be let through to Gaza.

That didn't happen recently, it was the Israelis threatening the flotilla that if they don't turn away from heading towards Gaza that they'll be met with force to prevent them from reaching it. The people refused so the Israelis attacked.

Why should Israel commit piracy?

How would you characterize Hamas, Adonis?

--Brant