Peikoff flip-flops

[9thdoctor]

Peikoff’s website just had a face lift, now the podcasts can be had piecemeal, making it easier to reference them. In today’s he discusses how he’ll be voting in November, it’s question number 4. Assuming you’re familiar with the 2006 fatwa, I urge you to bind your skull with thick padding before listening.

http://www.peikoff.com/

He draws a distinction between long term and short term dangers, likening Republicans to terrorists building bombs that will be ready in 10 years, thus preferable to Democrats qua mafia hoods at your door to kill you now. He will vote for ANY Republican in November.

I have to admit that I’m looking forward to commentary from Betsy Speicher and Diana Hsieh. May the fur fly once again! Go Betsy!!

[Philip Coates]

I haven't listened to it yet. But what I think is funny is how Diana offered a balls-out defense of never voting for the Republicans following Peikoff's views. And now he is going to vote for any Republican. I wonder if she is suddenly going to 'rethink her position' now?

Loaded or Slanted Language which Smuggles in an Argument:

On a minor note though, I don't like a hostile title like "Peikoff Flip-flops" for this reason: I thought his position of voting for any Democrat before was ridiculous. But I don't think you use loaded, slanted language like "flip-flops" when somebody changes (or even reverses) position just because you don't like that person, don't agree with their positions. If you agreed with their change of position you would never use the term to describe it.

You might use it if they gave no plausible reason and you also had some basis to suspect they did it not out of conviction, as when a politician flip-flops because his constituency no longer supports his view or his contributors threaten to abandon him. By contrast, one thing about Leonard Peikoff is, agree or disagree with a viewpoint, they are actually what he thinks. He's not exactly ever trying to curry favor with anyone.

It's like saying when someone disengages from something distasteful (suppose he left Perigo's Solo website in disgust at how it operated): It's not proper to call him a "flouncer" because if you agreed with the reasons for leaving you wouldn't use that term.

[9thdoctor]

Loaded or Slanted Language which Smuggles in an Argument:

On a minor note though, I don't like a hostile title like "Peikoff Flip-flops"

Tell you what Phil, how about you reread his 2006 statement, then listen to the podcast, and then, if you must, comment on how I named the thread. This is not journalism, to say the language is loaded or that I’m trying to smuggle in an argument isn’t applicable; it’s not presented as, or meant to be objective reporting. If you feel the mockery is overdone, fine, but listen to the podcast first.

By contrast, one thing about Leonard Peikoff is, agree or disagree with a viewpoint, they are actually what he thinks. He's not exactly ever trying to curry favor with anyone.

Is this like Being John Malkovich, are you planted in his head? How do you know his motivation? You can vouch for his integrity?

It's like saying when someone disengages from something distasteful (suppose he left Perigo's Solo website in disgust at how it operated): It's not proper to call him a "flouncer" because if you agreed with the reasons for leaving you wouldn't use that term.

We’ve covered this before, but here goes again: The term "flounce" refers to making a show of the fact you're “leaving” a forum. As opposed to simply not posting anymore.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Ninth Doctor

[John Day]

The benevolent side of me wants to say: "Hey, better late than never," but it's still pretty funny. How could Peikoff could not have seen this coming considering that universal health care had been the goal of the Democratic Party for 40 years? Nothing Obama has done as President is any worse than what is found in a European social democracy (which isn't to say it's not terrible, but it is expected). I would rather have America's Republican Party, where you have religious politicians but some of them truly believe in small government, than have Britain's Conservative Party, where the politicians are more secular, but are basically playing on the left's terms when it comes to the welfare state. (Cameron's idea of the "Big Society" is very much rooted in altruism)

I'm curious as to how Peikoff, Brook, et al. are going to react to Rand Paul's win tomorrow considering their ultra-hawkish views and strongly coming out against Ron Paul during his presidential run.

[Philip Coates]

ND: The term "flounce" refers to making a show of the fact you're “leaving” a forum. As opposed to simply not posting anymore.

ND, the connotation or implication of "making a show" is that someone is doing it for attention or is overdoing it or is over-dramatic, that one should simply do things more quietly or matter-of-factly, not make a big production out of it: If someone leaves somewhere or disengages [not just from a forum] and gives his reasons in detail, you are using -another- slanted phrase, "making a show", to define a slanted word.

Once again, you wouldn't use those words if you agreed with the person and his reasons.

Let me give an example: Many former communists left the party after it was clear Stalin was a mass murderer. And the wrote entire books about their reasons. One reason for some is they wanted to publicize, to tell the world how evil the system was. Whittaker Chambers' book "Witness" for example.

I doubt that you would say all the former communists were flouncing or making a show of their departure from communism.

[Philip Coates]

> I don't think you use loaded, slanted language like "flip-flops" when somebody changes (or even reverses) position just because you don't like that person, don't agree with their positions. If you agreed with their change of position you would never use the term to describe it. You might use it if they gave no plausible reason and you also had some basis to suspect they did it not out of conviction. [PC, #2]

> The term "flounce" refers to making a show of the fact you're “leaving” a forum. As opposed to simply not posting anymore. {ND, #1]

,,,,,,,,,

ND, the connotation or implication of "making a show" is that someone is doing it for attention or is overdoing it or is over-dramatic, that one should simply do things more quietly or matter-of-factly, not make a big production out of it: If someone leaves somewhere or disengages [not just from a forum] and gives his reasons in detail, you are using -another- slanted phrase, "making a show", to define the slanted word flounce. Once again, I strongly doubt one would use those words if they agreed with the person and his reasons for departure or disengagment or repudiation.

Let me give an example: Many former communists left the party after it was clear Stalin was a mass murderer. And the wrote entire books about their reasons. One reason for some is they wanted to publicize, to tell the world how evil the system was. Whittaker Chambers' book "Witness" for example.

Would you would say that all the former communists were flouncing or making a show of their departure from communism?

Once again, people only use words like 'flip-flop', 'flouncing', 'making a show', 'schoolmarm' etc. when they are hostile to the person or position and slanting the language avoids the necessity for making an argument or smuggles an unproven implication in.

[Robert Campbell]

Loaded or Slanted Language which Smuggles in an Argument:

On a minor note though, I don't like a hostile title like "Peikoff Flip-flops" for this reason: I thought his position of voting for any Democrat before was ridiculous. But I don't think you use loaded, slanted language like "flip-flops" when somebody changes (or even reverses) position just because you don't like that person, don't agree with their positions. If you agreed with their change of position you would never use the term to describe it.

You might use it if they gave no plausible reason and you also had some basis to suspect they did it not out of conviction, as when a politician flip-flops because his constituency no longer supports his view or his contributors threaten to abandon him. By contrast, one thing about Leonard Peikoff is, agree or disagree with a viewpoint, they are actually what he thinks. He's not exactly ever trying to curry favor with anyone.

Phil,

Leonard Peikoff's argument in 2006 was preposterous.

His reasoning isn't a whole lot more cogent this time around. Has he really just rediscovered the Democratic Party's 60-year attachment to socialized medicine? This is a guy whose very first publications, in the early 1960s, were about the threat of socialized medicine...

If I'd been headlining this thread, I wouldn't have said that Peikoff has flip-flopped. I'd have said that he continues to make an ass of himself.

If he had any sense, he'd discontinue these podcasts.

Robert Campbell

[Philip Coates]

> If he had any sense, he'd discontinue these podcasts.

Robert, I disagree. There is lots of good stuff to be found in the ones I've heard. As there is in his lectures and the books he wrote.

> Leonard Peikoff's argument in 2006 was preposterous.

I agree. So were his views about nuking Iran, on schisms, and a few other things. But my point about the inadvisability of using "loaded or slanted language" in responding to one's opponents still remains. As do my examples in post 2 and post 8 about leaving Perigo's website and leaving communism. (Aside: In addition to the points below about the logic of it, loading is ineffective with a thoughtful or careful or polemically aware or sales-resistant audience. Too easy and they've seen it before.)

,,,,,,,,,

* The UVic Writer's Guide: Slanted Language

Recognize Slanted Language

Slanted writing is when a writer chooses words to manipulate the reader and thus control the reader’s attitude toward a subject. Such words are referred to as having a particular connotation, or slant.

The dictionary definition of a word is its denotation, and the feeling or emotion surrounding a word is its connotation.

*http://www.uni.edu/earth/EECP/mid/mod1_la.html--> Slanted language: Uses words packed with emotion to make people feel a certain way.

*http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/comp2/suasive.htm--> Suasive diction is language that is used to persuade a reader by the clever manipulation of vocabulary...

Edited May 18, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Philip Coates]

To be clear: It's not wrong to use emotional appeal or connotation. All good writers do this.

The problem (in non-fiction writing or thinking as opposed to fiction or poetry) is when it's (i) a primary or (ii) done all the time as a characteristic or dominant mode, or (iii) to the exclusion of offering good solid evidence or argument.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Robert Campbell]

Phil,

Have you heard the podcast in which Peikoff rambles on about the new biographies of Ayn Rand?

Robert Campbell

[Dragonfly]

It's quite comical to see Peikoff trying to wriggle out of his previous "fatwa" *) with his clumsy metaphor of the chemical/nuclear factory and the mafia man. How is it possible that he's surprised by the actions and policies of the Obama government that were no surprise even to me, a relative outsider, while he's supposed to be an expert in the effects of philosophy on politics and in particular in the USA?

In my judgment, anyone who votes Republican or abstains from voting in this election has no understanding of the practical role of philosophy in man's actual life--which means that he does not understand the philosophy of Objectivism, except perhaps as a rationalistic system detached from the world.

Now I'm waiting for Hsieh's flip-flop...

[merjet]

Recognize Slanted Language

Slanted writing is when a writer chooses words to manipulate the reader and thus control the reader’s attitude toward a subject. Such words are referred to as having a particular connotation, or slant.

The dictionary definition of a word is its denotation, and the feeling or emotion surrounding a word is its connotation.

The second meaning of "flip-flop" in this dictionary is "an abrupt change, as to an opposite opinion." Ergo Ninth Doctor used its denotation. The connotation is/was yours.

[9thdoctor]

I donned sewer boots and headed over to Noodlefood to provide a link to the 2006 discussion. It seems all comments from 2006 have been deleted.

http://blog.dianahsieh.com/2006/10/why-im-voting-for-democrats.html#disqus_thread

Also, the comments following the Robert Mayhew piece on Robert Campbell are gone.

http://blog.dianahsieh.com/2010/03/robert-mayhew-on-ayn-rand-answers.shtml#disqus_thread

Maybe it’s just a software transition thing, the site does look a little different now.

Would you would say that all the former communists were flouncing or making a show of their departure from communism?

Nope, that’s worthy of high praise, the term flounce is called for when the case in question is worthy of mockery. I hope you perceive a difference between disclosing to the world the truth about hidden mass murder, and getting ticked off by the tenor of an online discussion forum. That there’s a matter of scale, orders of magnitude etc. Your last flounce was so drawn out, look how many tribute posts you got: http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7808&view=findpost&p=83092

And you were still hanging around to answer! Jeff, by contrast, said v’affanculo and then was out of here for a couple months at least.

If I'd been headlining this thread, I wouldn't have said that Peikoff has flip-flopped. I'd have said that he continues to make an ass of himself.

But “flip-flops” conveys relevant information, it says he’s changed positions on something. I don’t think “Peikoff continues to make an ass of himself” would arouse as much interest. So far there’s no one here to even play devil’s advocate and defend Peikoff on this point, so I don’t see this thread going very far in any event.

Slanted writing is when a writer chooses words to manipulate the reader and thus control the reader’s attitude toward a subject. Such words are referred to as having a particular connotation, or slant.

The dictionary definition of a word is its denotation, and the feeling or emotion surrounding a word is its connotation.

*http://www.uni.edu/earth/EECP/mid/mod1_la.html--> Slanted language: Uses words packed with emotion to make people feel a certain way.

*http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/comp2/suasive.htm--> Suasive diction is language that is used to persuade a reader by the clever manipulation of vocabulary...

This is hilarious, you think I’m being manipulative, controlling, and clever? The lead post is a broad blast filled with open mockery, it’s not subtle enough to qualify as manipulative, controlling, or clever. You’d think I’d pulled of some kind of NLP stunt from the way you keep harping on it. I assure you that I didn’t put enough time or effort into it to earn this praise, it was just my off the cuff reaction to hearing the podcast. At worst, rereading it now, I’d say it borders on puerile. But seriously, have you listened to the podcast yet?

[Reidy]

If "Peikoff flip-flops" is too harsh, how about "He voted for the Democrats before he voted against them"?

[Robert Campbell]

Phil,

As far as I can discern, Leonard Peikoff's been in intellectual free-fall since the mid-1980s.

I think two factors did him in:

• He never recovered from Barbara Branden's biography of Ayn Rand

• He left college teaching, so the audiences for his lectures henceforward consisted entirely of acolytes

Robert Campbell

[Philip Coates]

> This is hilarious, you think I’m being manipulative, controlling, and clever?

ND, no it's a series of snips about the wider fallacy; you don't have to take every phrase as personally directed at you.

[Philip Coates]

> As far as I can discern, Leonard Peikoff's been in intellectual free-fall since the mid-1980s. [Robert]

Most of what I learned from him was before then. About that time was when my time spent of pure Objectivism waned. I had spent thousands of hours, felt I understood it, and was spending more time on history, literature, pyshology and other subjects.

[Philip Coates]

Whoops... psyhology, I think that's a branch of knowledge that forms a basis for psy-ho-piss 'em-off-ogy.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Brant Gaede]

Whoops... psyhology, I think that's a branch of knowledge that forms a basis for psy-ho-piss 'em-off-ogy.

Now I suspect you don't know how to use the edit function and I'm pretty sure you simply don't know how to use the quote function. No big deal; I don't even know how to do links.

--Brant

[Philip Coates]

Brant, here you go: cook 'em slowly on medium heat for four minutes, till golden brown. Then turn 'em over and repeat the process on the other side.

[merjet]

I don't even know how to do links.

Above where you post use the icon next to the smiley on the right. If you put your cursor on it, "Insert Link" will appear. Type the word(s) you want to appear as a hotlink, e.g. post #19, then sweep the word(s) with the cursor, then click the icon. A pop-up will appear. Enter or paste the URL. Then click "Insert Link" in the pop-up.

You will see something like the following, most of which won't be there in the preview or the finished post, and with square brackets rather than curly ones.

{url="http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8632&view=findpost&p=99127"}post #19{/url}

[9thdoctor]

> This is hilarious, you think I’m being manipulative, controlling, and clever?

ND, no it's a series of snips about the wider fallacy; you don't have to take every phrase as personally directed at you.

Yet you maintain that I’ve committed a fallacy? Pray tell which phrase is directed at me? Also, any comment on my answer to commie flouncers? C’mon, I took the time to write it, if you agree you could at least say touché...of course an alexandrine couplet with a clever syzygy worked in would be even better, but I’m willing to settle.

[Brant Gaede]

Ok. saga. I don't know why people bother. Type in 50 character URLs?

--Brant

I think not

[merjet]

Ok. saga. I don't know why people bother. Type in 50 character URLs?

--Brant

I think not

I don't think I have ever typed one. I copy and paste.

[merjet]

duplicate deleted

Edited May 19, 2010 by Merlin Jetton