Gays in the military

[Peter]

Are the words or phrases “Orientation” or “Subconscious Belief,” a misnomer? Is a better term, “physical/mental state?” There is probably a better term to be coined, but does “physical/mental state,” better describe the actual nature of a mind?

The body is physical. So is the mind. When we experience the functioning of the mind, we perceive it as *thinking*. What is natural for every *PERSON*, by logic and *FACT*, is *NATURAL,* and a part of reality. A “Subconscious Belief,” or “Orientation” could theoretically be changed, but even if you chose to change a physical/mental state, you could not, at least at the current state of psychodynamic practice.

When President Obama does away with “Don’t ask, don’t tell,” gay people in the military can openly express their sexuality as long as they continue to be military in their bearing, during the execution of their duties. At times in one sense, a military person is off duty, or "at ease," but in another sense they are always "on duty." Some behaviors are always considered by the military to be, "unbecoming," or “not military in bearing,” whether on duty or off. We are just twelve short months away.

First, there will be a one year study as a prelude to writing a policy for gays to serve openly in the military. President Obama has ordered The Brass and their psychologists to dispense with the notion that a person can change their “Orientation.” Instead rules of conduct will be written to allow gays to act in a natural manner as themselves, yet retain unit cohesiveness, integrity, morale, and enlistments.

Secretary Gates and Joint Chief of Staffs chairman Admiral Mike Mullen's on Feb. 2, both endorsed this policy. They say it is time: no more hiding or lying.

From “pinknews:”

“Admiral Mullen's remarks reflect an attitude shift among the military establishment which has historically discouraged public debate on allowing open lesbian and gay Americans to serve."

End quote

They also mention an estimate that 65,000 gays are now serving in the American armed services. To be able to openly serve as gays, the individual soldier’s or sailor’s integrity will be sustained. No longer will there be an enhanced risk of blackmail to reveal military secrets. Gays could not be excluded from sensitive areas.

What behaviors will be unacceptable? That is a tough one. Obviously, these rules must apply to both straight and gay people.

During duty hours, for instance, a person must behave in a gender neutral way. I am quite serious when I say the following: A straight, gay man or woman could NOT answer roll call or perform their duties, in a falsetto, or a basso profundo voice, or in any voice other than their natural tone of voice. This is not a silly observation, because now, a soldier is required to answer a superior in a, "loud and clear manner." There are always people who test the limits and push the envelope. There are dozens of other areas that might be considered, "unbecoming," or not *Military in Bearing.*

No harassment would be acceptable, by a straight or a gay.

Off duty, “same sex” dancing would be acceptable in the enlisted, NCO, or Office’s Club if “other sex” dancing is acceptable. What about make-up, if make-up is acceptable for woman? Hair length? Women currently have a minimum hair length requirement. and men, a maximum hair length requirement.

A uniform is required when on duty. What about cross dressing, off duty? Living arrangements on or off base would be not official business.

This may be one of those areas where there can be no official Objectivist stance, but I agree with Robert Tracinski, editor of The Intellectual Activist, that equal rights and protection under the law is required for all American citizens.

Does anyone else have any other ideas? I come from a military family, and I have gradually changed my opinion. Until recently, I agreed with Senator John McCain that "Don't ask, don't tell," should be retained. Now I also wonder, what took America so long?

Peter

Elsworth:

“. . . Do you know the fate of deep-sea creatures brought out to sunlight? So much for future Roarks. The rest of you will smile and obey. Have you noticed that the imbecile always smiles? Man's first frown is the first touch of God on his forehead. The touch of thought. But we'll have neither God nor thought. Only voting by Smiles . . . .”

[Selene]

Peter:

The key question is the critical question...

Would a hardened gay Marine be able to flounce as they slaughter the enemy?

So sassy!

Adam

A mental cc: to Phil

[Reidy]

It's been done. Cary Grant got in WAC drag in I was a Male War bride.

[Selene]

It's been done. Cary Grant got in WAC drag in I was a Male War bride.

Lol

Great movie.

[Guyau]

Peter, thanks for your thoughts about this. My own support for gays and lesbians to be able to serve in the military without subterfuge would not be surprising to this circle.

One close friend of mine was in the Navy in the 70’s. A fellow sailor made the accusation that my friend had propositioned him at a party on shore. It was probably true. My friend denied it and denied that he was gay without end. But he was dishonorably discharged, there in the Mediterranean. He was flown off the ship, then back to the States. He returned home, told his father that he was gay and had been discharged. His father never spoke to him again as long as he lived.

In the 80’s I worked at a nuclear plant. We had a lot of former Navy nukes. They told me the obstacle to the acceptance of gays in the military was not the lower ranks, but the brass.

Got my fingers crossed.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Americans always have been hardheaded about prejudices.

I can't think of any other way to be fair other than for homosexuals to have the right to be open about who they are where they work.

This is going to happen because Americans almost always end up fixing things.

In my youth a black President was not plausible. Ever. Now look.

Wait until we have a gay or lesbian general.

Michael

[Peter]

Chief First Man wrote:

Would a hardened gay Marine be able to flounce as he slaughtered the enemy?

End quote

Reidy wrote

It's been done. Cary Grant got in WAC drag in I was a Male War bride.

end quote

Come on guys. It’s not a joking matter. These are the men and women who are protecting our rights. They are dying to protect our lives. When I change my mind about an issue, it is because there is a compelling reason to change it: In this case the compelling reasons are reason, truth, justice, and the American Way.

The unit during WWII that suffered the greatest casualties was composed of Japanese Americans, many of whom had family incarcerated for being, “Japs.” They were superb American fighting men. I see no reason why gays cannot also nobly serve.

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

[Peter]

Michael Stuart Kelly wrote:

Wait until we have a gay or lesbian general.

end quote

I was in the military when the first Black General was promoted, in 1967. We were told we were going to be inspected by him. I think we were only his second inspection as a General. We were told by our ass-kicking sargeant, “Anyone who cannot handle this, go on sick call now! Anyone who fucks up will be fucked by my wrath!” The Sarge had known him and The General had “eanrned” his promotion.

I saluted him, with tears in my eyes, though I did not realize it, as he went down the ranks talking to each of us. The black General noticed my tears, and was touched by them. “What are you upset about soldier?” “You’re the first, Sir!” He nodded and moved on.

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

[Peter]

Stephen Boydstun wrote:

But he was dishonorably discharged, there in the Mediterranean. He was flown off the ship, then back to the States. He returned home, told his father that he was gay and had been discharged. His father never spoke to him again as long as he lived.

end quote

That is a horrible story, Stephen, but most welcome and illuminating. It sounds like a plotline from, “Lost.” Did your friend feel disgrace or elation, or both, or neither?

I knew one guy who was discretely an openly gay soldier when I was overseas in Korea. No one “told” on him. Seriously. No one told. It was a matter of honor. He was our brother. This was around 1969. He was a stand up guy. We were all . . . highly trained in %*^)(*%#. (classified) But no matter what his qualifications were, someone must have said something, sometime, somewhere. He was denied his sergeant’s stripes after passing the test and he was denied reenlistment, and this was during the Viet Nam War! The Army, in its wisdom, sent him home to a shaky economy.

My wife once asked me, out of the blue, what would you do if one of your daughters said she was a lesbian? (They are not, by the way. It was a rhetorical question.) I replied, “Would she be the same person who she was before she told me?”

Love is unconditional. Disappointment or personal/cultural shame could affect a temporary response, but after that? How could a father dis-own his own? It is incomprehensible to me. The disappointment I elude to would be: Oh please lord, no grandchildren?

I looked at your stats, Stephen. Wow. I have never seen such a detailed profile. Your interests are eclectic. Good job.

It’s good to know you, Objectivist Scholar.

Live long and prosper,

Peter Taylor

[Peter]

Michael Stuart Kelly wrote:

Americans always have been hardheaded about prejudices. I can't think of any other way to be fair other than for homosexuals to have the right to be open about who they are where they work

End quote

I agree, but I wonder? Are the British more hardheaded about prejudices than Americans? “Bloody Wogs!” We might be tied for first. When a straight person encounters a flamboyant gay person they think, “How odd,” while simultaneously they wince, AND feel fascination. I can only say my feeling is, “What a fool!” What a fool for being so strange, and so out there with their strangeness.

I once crassly asked a Evolutionary Psychologist, if gay people do not pass on their genes, why do they keep showing up . . . you know, why are they continually born?

He answered, “Because they give humans an evolutionary advantage. Gay-ness is passed on because it is an advantage.”

An advantage? Bullshit! How? Are they smarter? Is just one of them so much smarter that it matters? But if they don’t pass on their genes, their “smartness” would only be an advantage for one or two generations. Right?

“Yes,” he replied. “There may be a higher incidence of genius in gays. Or not. Or their genius expressed in human society may mean more to the society. The advantage they pass on to humanity, is that they help take care of children in a primitive society, without being a competitor for mates.”

So they take care of the kids?

“More or less,” he said. “They may be hunters or scholars, but they gave an evolutionary advantage to the clan to which they belong. More kids survive when they are around.”

Jeez. Thanks, Man. Let me think about it. I think I understand.

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

[Brant Gaede]

Chief First Man wrote:

Would a hardened gay Marine be able to flounce as he slaughtered the enemy?

End quote

Reidy wrote

It's been done. Cary Grant got in WAC drag in I was a Male War bride.

end quote

Come on guys. It's not a joking matter. These are the men and women who are protecting our rights. They are dying to protect our lives. When I change my mind about an issue, it is because there is a compelling reason to change it: In this case the compelling reasons are reason, truth, justice, and the American Way.

The unit during WWII that suffered the greatest casualties was composed of Japanese Americans, many of whom had family incarcerated for being, "Japs." They were superb American fighting men. I see no reason why gays cannot also nobly serve.

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

They do, of course, especially the enlisted men of the US Air Force. I was once told they were about 30% gay. You can't know if this is/was true or not except gays tend to be smarter and the AF is where you'll find the smarts. I was in the army in the 60s. No one thought gay or queer or homosexual. We were just guys. I didn't even know what oral sex was when I was 21 when a sergeant told me about "going around the world." These days every 12 yo knows everything, it would seem, thanks to the Internet. It's not whether you are gay or straight. It's whether you are gay or straight respective to another person. If I know Joe but have no sexual interest in Joe I am not a homosexual to him unless he's a shit-head and thinks I do and goes after me with intent to do bodily harm. I once loved a man as much as any man could love a woman except I never in my life had a single sexual thought about him. I just thought that was best-friendship and maybe it was. I once wanted a woman so badly I went out of my mind with sexual lust but I loved her not. She couldn't accept that for a man sex could really come before love and that love could come out of the sex for there was world enough and time. Her cold water killed the whole damn thing, but boy! I could have had at her all night and all week on!

--Brant

[Donovan A.]

Interesting topic for sure. It obviously hits home for me and many of my friends. I was talking about some of these issues with my ex, who I regard as one of my best friends and who I turned on to Objectivism about three years ago. He looked up the history of the military laws in the US. From what we understood there was no law addressing homosexuality in regard to the military until the late 1800s. I believe the first law that was implemented made it a felony. I personally think the repeal of "don't ask don't tell" will be a challenge, but good in the long run. Most of my gay friends that are in the military now, I think will feel more at ease. I have my doubts that the sexual identity issues that are so prevalent in the gay community will be a problem for the military. I bring this up because there is some obvious truth to all the jokes. The stereotypical mental and behavioral characteristics of femininity I would argue are incompatible with physical aggression, killing and destructiveness. Lesbians stereotypically are characterized as masculine. Most of the gay men I know that are interested in the military act and behave as most straight men do. In fact, most people would have no idea that they are in fact gay. In other words, feminine females and feminine men I doubt would be interested in the military anyway (maybe I am wrong).

[Guyau]

Peter, you asked in #9 whether my friend Michael, who was dishonorably discharged from the Navy for being gay, felt disgraced or elated, or both, or neither? I just remember him being depressed. He was a liberated gay person, so I doubt he felt entirely disgraced. My partner and I offered that he come and stay with us in Chicago until he could find a job. This he did, staying with us a few weeks. He still lives in Chicago, has retired, and has a partner in life.

My partner Jerry and I and our friend Michael had all met in ’66 when we were freshmen in college. We were in an honors dorm, which was small enough that everyone soon knew everyone else. We were all three in the same introductory philosophy class. When Jerry died in ’90, I spread his ashes in the lake at sunrise (only that one summer, unlike the nineteen since, there was a light rain and the sun did not rise). With me that morning were three straight friends and Michael. He had had made a wreath of flowers which he hurled into the lake.

It has been so neat to have a friend across so much of life. I want to thank all of you who have shared your thoughts and experiences on this issue, and I want to thank you for being you.

[Peter]

I consider Cheney the most influential member of the Republican Party at this time. Way to go, Mister Vice President.

Peter

Newsmax

Cheney: 'Time to Reconsider' Ban on Gays in Military

Sunday, February 14, 2010 03:34 PM

WASHINGTON – Former US vice president Dick Cheney said Sunday it was "time to reconsider" the ban on gays serving openly in the US military.

"Twenty years ago, the military were strong advocates of 'don't ask-don't tell,' when I was secretary of defense. I think things have changed significantly since then," Cheney told ABC's "This Week."

"When the chiefs come forward and say, 'We think we can do it,' then it strikes me that it's time to reconsider the policy."

Earlier this month, Admiral Mike Mullen became the first chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to endorse repealing the 1993 law that requires service members to keep quiet about their sexual orientation or face expulsion from the military.

"I think the society has moved on. I think it's partly a generational question," said Cheney, who has an openly gay daughter.

Obama, who had postponed action on the issue in his first year in office, renewed his vow last month to change the 1993 ban.

Wading into politically sensitive territory, Mullen said in dramatic testimony to a Senate panel on February 2 that the issue "comes down to integrity, theirs as individuals and ours as an institution."

The admiral said he was optimistic that members of the military "can and would accommodate such a change," saying he had learned never to "underestimate their ability to adapt."

As the highest ranking officer in the country's armed forces, Mullen's unequivocal words carried special weight and provided substantial counter to those lawmakers who argue the military opposes the change.

[sbeaulieu]

My personal views on gays and lesbians in the service are this: Their sexual orientation should never have any bearing on wearing the uniform. They are human beings first with a part of them that says they are willing to lay down their lives to protect American freedoms.

Gay, lesbian, bisexual, straight...what does it matter? There's a military policy about public displays of affection (PDA) that keeps shows of affection to a bare minimum. Preferences should matter behind closed doors between consenting adults, period.

~ Shane

[Peter]

Shane wrote:

Gay, lesbian, bisexual, straight...what does it matter? There's a military policy about public displays of affection (PDA) that keeps shows of affection to a bare minimum. Preferences should matter behind closed doors between consenting adults, period.

end quote

I think what has held the Brass back for so long, is the intolerance of straight soldiers, present and in years past, who may have seen flouncing, same sex dancing, and makeup on men at on-base clubs, and off post bars, as “unbecoming a soldier.”

When I was a recruit in 1967 there were two “blanket parties” in my barracks at Fort Bragg North Caroline, one of which resulted in stitches and a discharge after a psychiatric interview of the victim, and the other blanket party resulted in two broken legs, after the victim was tied with a blanket, hoisted over a second story balcony feet downwards, and then let go. He was also discharged.

With the second guy, I was a squad leader by then, and I rushed to the midnight commotion, but was stopped by a guy not from our barracks, then punched and told to get back. The perpetrators disappeared. And then there was fragging, once overseas.

For people who are young today, it is hard for them to imagine the paradigm shift that has occurred in forty years.

I agree with the PDA policy.

Semper cogitans fidele,

Peter Taylor

[sbeaulieu]

Peter,

I can attest to seeing the military culture shift, being a military brat and 17 years in the service. Tolerance is certainly the linchpin on approaching this sensitive issue.

Before coming into the service, I was friends with a former Navy officer who is gay. He said that during his enlistment, he laid low and didn't make his sexual preference known, for the same reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

Homosexuals need to be aware of the dangers they face if they come into the service due to fact there are those that see a legitimit right in assaulting them. How they could ever come to that conclusion is beyond me. As you stated, there are those that flaunt it publicly. In those cases, they are inviting trouble, sad as that may be.

Point is no matter who or where you are, check your six, know your surroundings and act accordingly. The military's PDA policy is essentially preference-neutral. The exceptions would be returning home from a deployment and kissing your significant other, etc. Outside of that, military bearing applies.

Good points on the historical perspective, Peter.

~ Shane

[9thdoctor]

Here’s a point out of left field, if the draft were reinstituted, the ban on gays would serve as a kind of “get out of jail free” card, certainly easier than fleeing to Canada or shooting yourself in the foot. I read somewhere that the acid-rock king Jimi Hendrix got out of the military that way.

[Selene]

Here's a point out of left field, if the draft were reinstituted, the ban on gays would serve as a kind of "get out of jail free" card, certainly easier than fleeing to Canada or shooting yourself in the foot. I read somewhere that the acid-rock king Jimi Hendrix got out of the military that way.

Didn't used to work, but Alice's Restaurant still rings in my ears!

I was not aware of Hendricks getting out that way.

Adam

Post Script: The source is the Daily Kos so you are on your own!

Jimi Hendrix: The Original Chickenhawk?

by Armando

Share this on Twitter - Jimi Hendrix: The Original Chickenhawk?

Sun Jul 31, 2005 at 04:12:55 PM PST

Here's a strange story:

Rock legend Jimi Hendrix pretended he was gay to get out of the US Army, a new biography reveals . . . Hendrix's subterfuge, contained in his military medical records, is revealed for the first time in Charles Cross's biography, Room Full Of Mirrors. . . . Contrary to his later image,

Hendrix was an avowed anti-communist who exhibited little unease about the escalating US role in Vietnam

. He just wanted to escape the Army to play music . . . he had enlisted to avoid jail time after being repeatedly arrested in stolen cars in Seattle, his home town.

Jimi just wanted to play his music. Jonah just wants to "play" his keyboard.

Anyway, at least it was more colorful (Purple? Heh.) than Rush's "football injury."

Edited February 18, 2010 by Selene

[9thdoctor]

Didn't used to work, but Alice's Restaurant still rings in my ears!

Hmm, I've never been much of a folk music guy, this one's new to me.

You mean this wouldn't have gotten you out of Vietnam?

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Edited February 18, 2010 by Ninth Doctor

[Selene]

Didn't used to work, but Alice's Restaurant still rings in my ears!

Hmm, I've never been much of a folk music guy, this one's new to me.

You mean this wouldn't have gotten you out of Vietnam?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMX3szf7bYU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMX3szf7bYU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMX3szf7bYU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

You're on a roll tonight!

Actually my teaching fellowship did and I won the lottery by being 300+ - I tell people that the Vietcong had to get to the outskirts of Kansas City before they drafted me, which illustrated how stupid a draft is, not to mention immoral.

It saved me filing as a conscientious objector, which I would have lost, since it was not going to be based on religion, but the Constitution and the manner in which the war was being prosecuted which was not to win.

Hell, I probably would have been sent to OCS and I would have been a good officer. If not, I would have attempted to get into sniper school. Can't get more individualistic than that. I have had a gun in my hands since I was eight (8), properly trained.

I am an excellent shot.

Adam

[Selene]

Gay Guardsman Still Drills With Unit

February 13, 2010Stars and Stripes A New York National Guard Soldier who last year announced his homosexuality on national television is again drilling with his unit, The New York Times reported Friday

Lt. Dan Choi, who has been away from his unit since coming out publicly last March, said he participated in exercises last weekend at the urging of his commander, Lt. Col. John Andonie. The unit, the 1st Battalion, 69th Infantry Regiment, is preparing for a possible deployment to Afghanistan in 2012.

“I’m more out, I think, than anybody,” Choi said in an interview with the Times.

After telling MSNBC television host Rachel Maddow that he was gay, Choi was recommended for discharge at a hearing last June. The Pentagon must make a final decision on his status.

For the most recent military news, visit the News Channel on Military.com.

President Barack Obama in his State of the Union address earlier this month called for a repeal of the military’s ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ law prohibiting gays from serving openly. Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mike Mullen then declared support for the effort and Gates called for a yearlong study into how best to repeal the law.

Choi, a 28-year-old Arabic linguist, served in Iraq previously with the 10th Mountain Division. Since last year, he has been performing administrative duties rather than formal drilling with his Guard unit. But a spokesman for the unit confirmed to the Times that he had participated in recent drills and said he would continue to do so until he was discharged.

“We do not have an issue with it,” said the spokesman, Lt. Col. Paul Fanning. “It’s a deeply personal thing. To us a Soldier is a Soldier is a Soldier.”

Andonie, the commander, declined to be interviewed.

[Guyau]

.

Yes, My Country!

Peter, thanks for your thoughts about this. My own support for gays and lesbians to be able to serve in the military without subterfuge would not be surprising to this circle.

One close friend of mine was in the Navy in the 70’s. A fellow sailor made the accusation that my friend had propositioned him at a party on shore. It was probably true. My friend denied it and denied that he was gay without end. But he was dishonorably discharged, there in the Mediterranean. He was flown off the ship, then back to the States. He returned home, told his father that he was gay and had been discharged. His father never spoke to him again as long as he lived.

In the 80’s I worked at a nuclear plant. We had a lot of former Navy nukes. They told me the obstacle to the acceptance of gays in the military was not the lower ranks, but the brass.

Got my fingers crossed.

[kiaer.ts]

.

Yes, My Country!

Peter, thanks for your thoughts about this. My own support for gays and lesbians to be able to serve in the military without subterfuge would not be surprising to this circle.

One close friend of mine was in the Navy in the 70's. A fellow sailor made the accusation that my friend had propositioned him at a party on shore. It was probably true. My friend denied it and denied that he was gay without end. But he was dishonorably discharged, there in the Mediterranean. He was flown off the ship, then back to the States. He returned home, told his father that he was gay and had been discharged. His father never spoke to him again as long as he lived.

In the 80's I worked at a nuclear plant. We had a lot of former Navy nukes. They told me the obstacle to the acceptance of gays in the military was not the lower ranks, but the brass.

Got my fingers crossed.

Yes, this is most excellent news. I wonder what the text of the law says. I hope it is a simple repeal of don't ask don't tell instead of a new level of regulation - if anyone gets a copy of of the law or a link to the text please post it.

[kiaer.ts]