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Brant writes:
Moral law is the consequence of reality back engineered into principles that help people who are therefore moral in their human actions and interactions.


That's the proper "chain of command", Brant.
Moral law serves objective reality which is greater than itself.
Moral law is not man made, it is man identified.


So well put. :smile:


Greg

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Peter writes:Greg is saying we ain't seen nuthin' yet.
This is just the opening act. The main event is yet to come.
What about my social security blanket?
Everyone will just have to learn how to live without it like I have.Greg
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Brant writes:

Well, it was only a little panic today which has reversed from DOW down 1089 to DOW down 112 588.

Fixed it fer ya. :laugh:

This is still ~nothing~ compared to what's coming...

... because there is something fundamentally WRONG with America...

...and that has already set into motion a set of consequences which cannot be undone.

Greg

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Found another video that is interesting in that it lists all of the events scheduled for this coming September. Skip to 6 minutes to get past the bulls**t. That's where the information begins. This guy is a secularist entrepreneur.






Greg
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Greg--did you ever have a dream, a nightmare, and you woke up screaming thinking you were a fanatic?

Does that mean you believe nothing will happen next month? And you have to admit at the very least this is all very entertaining.

I sleep well with a clear Conscience knowing I had fulfilled my duties for the day. :smile:

Greg

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Greg wrote: Does that mean you believe nothing will happen next month? And you have to admit at the very least this is all very entertaining. I sleep well with a clear Conscience knowing I had fulfilled my duties for the day.
end quote

Greg, you are attempting persuasion but if your evidence of future occurrences is determined by conflicting mystical texts, you are a fool. Thinking that your righteousness guarantees your survival while others die means you are foolish. Even if your agreement with a prediction for September 14, 2015 SHOULD come to pass, it does not mean anything other than *chance.* You are a determinist who ignores evidence but accepts mystical revelation. What a coincidence Rand mentions “moralists,” below. Can that be a coincidence? Cue spooky music.
Peter

Notes. Ayn Rand wrote in Faith and Force: It is only mysticism that can permit moralists to get away with it. It was mysticism, the unearthly, the supernatural, the irrational that has always been called upon to justify it -- or, to be exact, to escape the necessity of justification. One does not justify the irrational, one just takes it on faith. . . . . The real conflict, of course, is reason versus mysticism. But if it weren't for the altruist morality, mysticism would have died when it did die -- at the Renaissance -- leaving no vampire to haunt Western culture. A "vampire" is supposed to be a dead creature that comes out of its grave only at night -- only in the darkness -- The conflict of reason versus mysticism is the issue of life or death -- of freedom or slavery -- of progress or stagnant brutality. Or, to put it another way, it is the conflict of consciousness versus unconsciousness.

Let us define our terms. What is reason? Reason is the faculty which perceives, identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. Reason integrates man's perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man's knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic -- and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. What is mysticism? Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one's senses and one's reason. Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as "instinct," "intuition," "revelation,' or any form of "just knowing."
Reason is the perception of reality, and rests on a single axiom: the Law of Identity.

Mysticism is the claim to the perception of some other reality -- other than the one in which we live -- whose definition is only that it is not natural, it is supernatural, and is to be perceived by some form of unnatural or supernatural means . . . .
Their antagonists are: faith and force. These, also, are corollaries: every period of history dominated by mysticism, was a period of statism, of dictatorship, of tyranny. Look at the Middle Ages -- and look at the political systems of today. The nineteenth century was the ultimate product and expression of the intellectual trend of the Renaissance and the Age of Reason, which means: of a predominantly Aristotelian philosophy. And, for the first time in history, it created a new economic system, the necessary corollary of political freedom, a system of free trade on a free market: capitalism. No, it was not a full, perfect, unregulated, totally laissez-faire capitalism -- as it should have been. Various degrees of government interference and control still remained, even in America -- and this is what led to the eventual destruction of capitalism. But the extent to which certain countries were free was the exact extent of their economic progress. America, the freest, achieved the most.

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Greg--did you ever have a dream, a nightmare, and you woke up screaming thinking you were a fanatic?

Does that mean you believe nothing will happen next month? And you have to admit at the very least this is all very entertaining.

I sleep well with a clear Conscience knowing I had fulfilled my duties for the day. :smile:

Greg

I too predict something will happen next month.

--Brant

I'm onto the bandwagon?

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Yes the National Football League will open it's season...

And both NY baseball teams will be fully into a serious shot at the World Series...

And Iran will be closer to beginning the next step in WW III.

A...

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Adam wrote: And Iran will be closer to beginning the next step in WW III.
end quote

That’s a great point. Conventionally destroying Iran’s and North Korea’s nuclear capabilities would save lives in the decades to come. The use any nukes even a dirty bomb will herald in the brink of WW III, and the fear of a preemptive strike, or, an all - out nuclear war of aggression from Islam and a war of survival for Israel. And another one bites the dust. . . and another one. Just imagine the paranoia here in the States and in the Mideast, Russian and Europe, China and Free Korea, if those effing savages in Iran get the bomb.

I wish it were the day after inauguration day.

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Dow closes at 15->666<-

"The Dow Jones industrial average and the S&P 500 closed about 1.3 percent lower after rallying nearly 3 percent earlier, their biggest reversal to the downside since Oct. 29, 2008."

[can't keep overlooking the signs...]

Prep for heading for the hills;

1. Subaru with 18.5 gal gas tank and best awd traction control in automobiles: check

2. Copy of How to stay alive in the woods: check

3. Guns & Ammo, knives, axes, tools: check, etc. [need a good varmint rifle]

4. Hiking boots, tent, bags, maps, compass, warm clothes, rain gear: check

5. Fit for hiking in the hills: check - [you can always be more fit]

6. Cash: check

7. Loves hanging out in the forest with no heat and AC or regular hot showers or running water or nearby Mexican restaurants: not so much.

Note to self: get out on the range and target practice regularly.

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Mike E. wrote: 7. Loves hanging out in the forest with no heat and AC or regular hot showers or running water or nearby Mexican restaurants: not so much.
end quote

I like my central air, though I also like to sweat when I am outside. I don't want to do without electricity. A survivor (or a survivalist) can be a decent sort. Ayn Rand's characters Howard Roark and Francisco d'Anconia destroyed what they had created, without killing innocent people. The men abandoning trains, in Atlas Shrugged did not allow innocent people to die. Characters who had degenerated morally BUT did the right thing, would be described by Ayn Rand as still having a "spark of decency."

I think that all of her protagonists were kind, never hurt anyone without gross justification, and even had good manners! When a character told another that they were going to "soak" them in a business deal, it was understood that the characters knew the total context of the remark, as did the readers. Rational egoism and Objectivism don't lead to anarchy, hedonism, or "dog eat dog" survivalism. An Objectivist would not harm another person unless it was in self-defense. The only extension of this, Non-Initiation of Force Principle," that I can remember is when a gun or missile is pointed in your general direction and you have objective data that the pointer of the weapon has hostile intent towards you or an ally.

But if supplies get short, charity goes out the window.

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Those oldies but goodies.

From: "Jeff Olson" To: "atlantis"
Subject: ATL: Galactic Council of Rationality and Rights
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 14:35:31 -0700

The chairman of the Galactic Council of Rationality and Rights cleared his throat, and solemnly gazed down at the duck-billed petitioner, whose three purple eyes blazed with hope.

"I regret to inform you," Chairman Riggins intoned, watching the petitioner's bright purple eyes glaze over in despair, "that your representatives' average score of eighty-eight on the multi-level rationality test, section 223, failed to meet the required ninety points. Therefore, it is my reluctant duty to disqualify your species from rights-consideration."

The duck-like creature bowed its head, and waddled dejectedly toward the door, beyond which it assumed that heavily armed representatives from the ACME Aquatic Slave Labor Camps would be waiting.

The chairman scowled at his holographic docket as the next applicant, a doggish being with soft, mournful eyes, was led in by an expensively dressed human female. Gayle Dean, the famous interspecies lawyer, thought the chairman with contempt. Here with yet another ridiculous utilitarian rights-petition for a species that can't even write its own name. What's next -- petitioning for cute algae or multi-task laundry machines?

"If it pleases the Council--"

"It does *not* please the Council," Chairman Riggins rumbled harshly, cutting the lawyer off. "This entity" -- he said the word like a curse -- "was not even able to complete the test forms. It barely possesses the conceptual ability to manipulate more than a few simple symbols! You're wasting the Council's time, Ms. Dean."

"But your Objective One, the Abbsors are capable of thinking in images and of rational planning," the lawyer protested. "And they have been proven to greatly improve mental and reproductive function in all beings they've come in contact with. The effect is present as long as they are allowed to follow their own wills, and are not harassed or interfered with. It would be to our benefit, sir, to recognize the Abbsors as rights-bearing."

"Petition denied," Chairman Riggins grated. "And if you come before this court with any further nonsense about 'benefit,' Ms. Dean, I will impose a hefty fine for violating the Frivolous Petition Statute."

As the lady lawyer slumped and led her furry client away, the chairman called for the next case in a weary voice. A powerfully built creature with a sharkish head entered, its beady eyes respectfully downcast. The chairman eyed the holographic readout before him, and permitted himself a small smile. For the first time today, the test scores were laudable. Good news for the Killyourians, he thought.

"Your representatives have passed all tests with impressive scores," the chairman greeted the fierce-looking creature. "Congratulations. You now have the right to fully pursue the dictates of your own nature."

"Excellent," the Killyourian grunted, its grin exposing massive rows of razor-like teeth as it eyed the plump chairman. "Cause I'm awfully hungry."

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When a character told another that they were going to "soak" them in a business deal, it was understood that the characters knew the total context of the remark, as did the readers.

What's the reference for "'soak' them in a business deal"?

--Brant

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Thinking that your righteousness guarantees your survival while others die means you are foolish.
Now you're being silly. Everyone dies. No one escapes death.I've found by my own personal experience that moral protection and economic providence can both be enjoyed simply by doing what's morally right. So this is not a matter of mere intellectual or emotional belief. It is something that I know. And what I know for myself cannot be transferred to you or to anyone else. So you're on your own to work things out for yourself. That's your own problem to deal with, and has absolutely nothing to do with me.
Even if your agreement with a prediction for September 14, 2015 SHOULD come to pass, it does not mean anything other than *chance.*
Sure. Just like the precise Elul29 debt collapses of 2008 and 2001 were also just *chance*. I always find blind denial in the face of positively astronomical odds to be amusing. :wink:Greg
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Greg,

Correlation is not causation. Free market economists have been looking at the actions of central banks and debt growth and easy money for years and predicting a huge bubble which has to burst sometime. Tens of millions of people exactly like you fervently pray, and act, to make your biblical predictions (the timing of a catastrophic event) come true to confirm your beliefs. Thresholds events can be strongly effected by tiny step functions such as the biases of a relatively small population. The noise floor, small unpredictable random fluctuations, can be overcome by small step functions at the threshold. You said yourself, a very large population has been taught to act in a particular manner on certain preordained dates. Like the butterfly effect, small actions can have profound consequences. But it's still individual human actions and mathematics. No mystical explanations necessary.

You're welcome.

Mike

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When a character told another that they were going to "soak" them in a business deal, it was understood that the characters knew the total context of the remark, as did the readers.

What's the reference for "'soak' them in a business deal"?

--Brant

No one ever "beat" Francisco in a business deal. That's Ayn Rand descriptive style. If she ever used "soak" it was likely dialogue. Without the sentence and paragraph it doesn't work as ascribable to her, unlike "beat." The way you used the word it might have been two characters speaking lightheartedly to each other.

--Brant

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Mike E. wrote: Tens of millions of people exactly like you fervently pray, and act, to make your biblical predictions (the timing of a catastrophic event) come true to confirm your beliefs.
end quote

Very true, and that reminds me of all the cults who drank the Kool-Aid, and all the irrationals who killed themselves so that they could be carried off in a space ship, and all the Jehovah’s Witnesses who warp their lives to gain converts and money for the cause of death. I am not saying Greg will act out his fantasy but when it is a fantasy, who knows? Greg probably doesn’t know. I can say that with assurance because Greg came to a site CREATED FOR the rational, reasoning percent of humans. Our scientific way of thinking is the opposite of his yet he came here of all places to do what? Proselytize? Does he want to me slammed? What the hell?

Greg. You sound like you are as crazy as a loon, like Lady Macbeth scrubbing an imaginary spot of blood only she can see. Out damn spot! Get thee to a monastery, varlet.

Here are some RECENT snips from Greg, like an old 78 album stuck in a groove.

Today, America has racked up over fifty million snuffed fetuses, is absolutely drowning in dope, has legitimized every form of perversion, while the majority have become secular political leftists who worship at the altar of their idol, big government which gives them benefits checks.

Jonathan had been saying that for many years when there was plenty of time for people to clean up their lives. In my opinion, now it's already too late for America. Only individual Americans can save themselves.

2,500 years ago, Isaiah warned the Israelites that if they didn't stop practicing iniquities like sacrificing their children on altars to pagan idols, their land would be completely destroyed. He got mocks and FU's until their land was indeed utterly destroyed by their enemies because they had freely chosen to forfeit God's moral protection and economic providence.

Anyone who puts doing what's morally right before everything else will prosper beyond their wildest dreams. This is because they are acting in harmony with the objective reality of moral law. Acting in harmony with the objective reality of moral law invites God's Providence into your life whether or not you believe in Him. Believing in God is not necessary... only loving what's morally right enough to do it matters.

I have said that only a decent society can be free, because freedom is only for the decent.

Peter, from where did you get the crazy idea that commercialized religion has anything remotely to do with a Christian's personal relationship between God and their Conscience? I know... it came from secular leftism.
I sleep well with a clear Conscience knowing I had fulfilled my duties for the day.

...and that has already set into motion a set of consequences which cannot be undone.

Moral law serves objective reality which is greater than itself.

In your view there is no objective reality, no objective moral standard of personal behavior. There is no objective truth so there are no lies. Good and evil are nothing more than subjective opinions, so no one person's opinion is any better or worse than any another's.

It is something that I know. And what I know for myself cannot be transferred to you or to anyone else.

THE PROPITIOUS SMILES OF HEAVEN, CAN NEVER BE EXPECTED ON A NATION THAT DISREGARDS THE ETERNAL RULES OF ORDER AND RIGHT, WHICH HEAVEN ITSELF HAS ORDAINED:

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This was in a TownHall online advertisement. At first I thought it was a joke: Still looking for an affordable God-honoring healthcare solution? The doors are always open at Medi-Share. Healthcare Sharing Ministries . . . Best of all, it’s Biblical. You never have to pay for things that go against your beliefs.

What insane bullshit. Sometimes stupid people NEED to be taken to the cleaners to teach them a lesson. That reminds me of three card monty and shell game street vendors on the streets of NY, and the carnival games across America, and the board walk games in Ocean City, MD and Atlantic City NJ. Sally! Stop putting your quarters in the claw machine. It’s fixed!

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Sally! Stop putting your quarters in the claw machine. It’s fixed!

And that is Greg's position which you claim is not "rational."

huh-smiley-emoticon.gif

im-confused-smiley-emoticon.gif

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Those emoticons don't fair well transitioning to email, Adam, but I can see them first hand at OL, so I think I know what you are getting at.

I was talking about a health care plan for Christian rubes. Is it a scam? I dinna click on it, Lad, said Scotty, but it looks like a scam. I get the feeling Greg is also trying to scam us. How I don't know, but he came to the wrong neighborhood. If I want to read a downer about the apocalypse there is always The Diary of Ann Frank. But I will be monitoring the news on September 14th, and that aggravates me to a degree. Thanks a lot Greg.

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Those emoticons don't fair well transitioning to email, Adam, but I can see them first hand at OL, so I think I know what you are getting at.

I was talking about a health care plan for Christian rubes. Is it a scam? I dinna click on it, Lad, said Scotty, but it looks like a scam. I get the feeling Greg is also trying to scam us. How I don't know, but he came to the wrong neighborhood. If I want to read a downer about the apocalypse there is always The Diary of Ann Frank. But I will be monitoring the news on September 14th, and that aggravates me to a degree. Thanks a lot Greg.

They do not "transfer" well to e-mail because their codes are written for forums.

There are different codes for e-mails.

Greg, as far as I understand his position, is not predicting the apocalyptic end on September 15th.

There is a line from The Magnificent Seven where Yul Brenner says to Harry, "Don't understand me so fast too well!"

He meant do not read into what I am saying and basically make shit up and then ascribe it to me!

A...

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He uses some market cues as hints but mostly his theory is made up bullshit he is passing on, told to him by a rune or a guru or a scripture. It's like when a statistician says to you, watch the crowd as you walk to that cheaper off Broadway show and you will see five percent blonds but three percent are bottle blonds, so not intending to, you are looking and counting blonds until your wife elbows you in the ribs and says, I could be a blond tomorrow, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT! And that's when you know you are in trouble. Say, let's go see Wicked instead, you say as you try to divert her attention, I don't care what the scalpers are asking for orchestra seats at those kiosks or right outside the theatre I could buy tickets, and I can verify the bar code on my phone app, but no, she's not buying it and wants to see Wayne Brady in Kinky Boots, but you say, oh no not that . . .

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