KorbenDallas Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Korben, btw - If you ever do business with people in our subcommunity, I suggest you avoid typical ortho-Objectivists. I'm serious. But if you do and your experience is the same as mine (too many times for comfort), you will encounter some of the most out-to-lunch non-realistic negotiators in the world. What's worse, they will be blatantly dishonest and have a chip on their shoulder daring you to call them on it, too. (That's one of the main reasons I don't do business in O-Land.) And talk about bombastic offers! I know of one case, for example (I prefer not to say who), where the opening offer was $500k and the price the person accepted in the end was $50k. And this wasn't a negotiating tactic. The deal wasn't even worth $50k. This person wanted to run a rusty nail through the buyer, pure and simple. I don't think most hardcore Objectivists are immoral at business, though. Incompetent, yes. Immoral... well... to the extent little kids are I guess... I've had to do contract negotiations before, but I was honest about what I believed and didn't misrepresent myself. Haggling over price or terms isn't the same thing as misrepresenting who you are or your ideas. I have found that if people will lie when trying to get a contract they will lie to you after the contract as well. So I became keen on honesty and would award a higher priced contract if necessary, but I was pretty good at talking people down in price, making sure it was equitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 hours ago, william.scherk said: The first surprise will likely be what bill language Trump will accept that recasts 'pre-existing condition' rules. I figure, in my ignorance, that there are certain fundamental issues that bother Trump the dreamer -- issues of fairness. I expect he will be in effect arguing with himself, as a representative of the business class, and as a representative of the "little guy." It's a big table that collects all the 'negotiators' for The Deal. It will be interesting even without the inevitable hoopla. A major 100 days challenge, repeal and replace. Anyone else sketching out ACA surprises in mind? I don't know, but is the general perception that insurance companies are looking honest right now? ObamaCare is currently taking the blame, that the insurance companies 'had no choice' but to raise their costs because of it. But insurance companies weren't honest before Obamacare, and I doubt they will be after it. I'm not sure opening up the state lines to encourage competition will take care of it, regulating insurance companies to accept pre-existing conditions and dependent children to 26 will raise costs. I think the insurance companies will push those costs unnecessarily to customers with their HSA accounts, telling customers to use their accounts for things not covered, meanwhile the insurance companies are working the plans to their own advantage. It sounds like it will end up being an over-regulated hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 46 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said: It sounds like it will end up being an over-regulated hell. Korben, Heh... You mean unlike the free-market options now available? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Ann Coulter is on her gig: But not just Democrats. These new jobs are giving other Trump-haters a headache, too. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 49 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said: I don't know, but is the general perception that insurance companies are looking honest right now? ObamaCare is currently taking the blame, that the insurance companies 'had no choice' but to raise their costs because of it. But insurance companies weren't honest before Obamacare, and I doubt they will be after it. Korben, Now you are beginning to see the nature of the enemy. In a power structure where no one powerful is honest, you cannot be honest with them if you want to improve things. You have to get rid of them first, then show your hand. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: 2 hours ago, KorbenDallas said: I don't know, but is the general perception that insurance companies are looking honest right now? ObamaCare is currently taking the blame, that the insurance companies 'had no choice' but to raise their costs because of it. But insurance companies weren't honest before Obamacare, and I doubt they will be after it. Korben, Now you are beginning to see the nature of the enemy. In a power structure where no one powerful is honest, you cannot be honest with them if you want to improve things. You have to get rid of them first, then show your hand. Sure, but Trump's healthcare plan isn't going to be free-market with the pre-existing conditions and dependent children to 26 regulations---so how would Trump's healthcare plan, which won't be free-market, have the benefits of stamping out dishonesty that a laissez-faire market would theoretically do? Those regulations will lead to more regulations, and I think opening up the state lines will help. I think we'll probably end up with a healthcare system that resembles what we had before Obamacare, which would be a big improvement, but it was still an over-regulated hell. I personally don't like the idea of having only HSA plans, maybe I'm alone on that. My reasoning is I have noticed insurance companies like to work their HSA plans to push more costs to the customers, so there is potential there that they would do more of it if the healthcare system were regulated to being HSA only. I think having both HSA and traditional plans helped keep them in check, by customers having choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 minute ago, KorbenDallas said: Sure, but Trump's healthcare plan isn't going to be free-market with the pre-existing conditions and dependent children to 26 regulations---so how would Trump's healthcare plan, which won't be free-market, have the benefits of stamping out dishonesty that a laissez-faire market would theoretically do? Korben, I've already given my view on how Trump operates. I just don't accept your view of what he's going to do. In my understanding, Trump plays possum, works in phases, replaces the bad guys as he goes along, and shows his hand in the end. The premise of your argument is that WaPo says something, so it must be true and it's engraved in stone for all time. I have no way of arguing the WaPo version since I don't think it's connected to reality. I judge by what people do, not just what they say. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 11 hours ago, Peter said: Brant, I remember Nathaniel Branden or some other insider saying Rand did receive Social Security and she did cash the checks. President Trump. Sigh. What’s he going to do? Do you have a “wish list?” You don't seem to know the difference between SSI and SS. The first is disability under SS and the second merely SS. My neighbor has MS and gets SSI. He's way too young for SS. There's a legal and medical industry for getting people on SSI. It easily takes two years but there are millions--tens of millions--on SSI. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 57 minutes ago, KorbenDallas said: Trump's healthcare plan ... pre-existing conditions and dependent children to 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Korben, Isn't that video from last year? I remember seeing it. Why is it being presented as if it were a recent statement? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 From Jan 6th Rand Paul: Trump 'fully supports my plan to replace Obamacare' From Jan 10th So it seems like pre-existing conditions and dependent children to 26 are going to stay. I'm not as optimistic as Rand Paul is about his plan, but I think it would be better than Obamacare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 And this news article just came through from The Hill, GOP senators introducing ObamaCare replacement Monday. Seems Rand Paul has some competition to his healthcare proposal: GOP Sens. Susan Collins (Maine) and Bill Cassidy (La.) are planning to offer an ObamaCare replacement proposal next week as lawmakers gear up to repeal the law. Collins said they will introduce their legislation on Monday, noting it would be based on a 2015 proposal and give states more flexibility. [...] Cassidy added that the his plan would cover everyone currently insured, and potentially cover up to 95 percent of Americans. "The way we do this is that as we return power to the states we give states the option of saying everyone who is eligible for [insurance] coverage is enrolled unless chose not to be," he said, comparing the proposal to the current Medicaid system. [...] President-Elect Donald Trump has backed repealing and replacing ObamaCare at the same time. He separately told The Washington Post that a replacement for the Affordable Care Act should provide “insurance for everybody.” [...] Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) is also teasing his own alternative replacement plan and is expected to introduce it this week. [...] I'm starting to like the idea of not listening to Trump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 8 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Korben, Isn't that video from last year? I remember seeing it. Why is it being presented as if it were a recent statement? Michael The video was of a 60 Minutes interview that aired on November 13, 2016. Barely more than two months ago is not recent enough? Please fill the blank in the following: Anything Trump said more than __ days ago has zero credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 55 minutes ago, merjet said: Please fill the blank in the following: Anything Trump said more than __ days ago has zero credibility. Merlin, Again? More arguments that words are more important than deeds? Well let me say the contrary, that deeds are more important than words. You may dislike Trump's style, but he is going to make great things happen, as he has done a lot already. Frankly, I would rephrase your statement: "Please fill the blank in the following: What has any American president said within __ decades ago that had more than zero credibility?" That is our context, not some land of milk and honey with politicians full of integrity, intelligence and good will--a utopia that Trump to some people is apparently going to destroy through words. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Maybe something is not clear that keeps this gotcha thing going. It's a vision of what helpless human beings are. I don't share the view I have seen promoted by several Objectivists that the philosophy is a way for me to justify--to myself--being a dick. If I see a person who is down and out and I can help, I generally do something. It's in the give a hand-up spirit. If the person is truly helpless, I don't mind chipping in to help out. I'm not against orphanages, mental hospitals and so forth. If I see someone gaming the system, I get pissed. Trump has the same spirit, as I believe, the majority of his supporters do. So whatever he is going to do with health care will be in that spirit. I predict the ideological purists of all stripes (left, right and libertarian) are going to be pissed because the only way to see if someone is truly helpless or is gaming the system is to look at him--at him as an individual. When you look, you make choices. Ideological purists don't want that. They want an automatic rule so they don't have to look at anything. btw - I'm awfully tired of crony insurance companies in cahoots with the government gaming the system... I don't think they have any more right to be corrupt than a poor lazy slob just because they are rich. Gaming the system is gaming the system. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Again? More arguments that words are more important than deeds? ----------------- "Please fill the blank in the following: What has any American president said within __ decades ago that had more than zero credibility?" Thank you for using a question mark and not blatantly trying to cram your words in my mouth for the umpteenth time. What Trump deeds? He has no deeds as President. He hasn't been inaugurated yet! There are zero deeds behind the words 'Make America great Again'. ----------------- Do you have that low of opinion of the credibility of every President in US history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 42 minutes ago, merjet said: Thank you for using a question mark and not trying to cram your words in my mouth for the umpteenth time. What Trump deeds? He has no deeds as President. He hasn't been inaugurated yet! There are zero deeds behind the words 'Make America great Again'. ----------------- Do you have that low of opinion of the credibility of every President in US history? Patience, patience.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeyfoot Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 3 hours ago, BaalChatzaf said: Patience, patience.... It is important to note that despite the talk, it's all talk and no action, yet. Im sure someone will remind me that Trump has been acting. ;) And what a great actor is he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, turkeyfoot said: It is important to note that despite the talk, it's all talk and no action, yet. Im sure someone will remind me that Trump has been acting. ;) And what a great actor is he. Let us wait and see. He doesn't punch in on the job until 12:00 noon this Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Merlin, 4 hours ago, merjet said: What Trump deeds? He has no deeds as President. Merlin, Now who's putting words in whose mouth? You knew I was referring to Trump's lifetime of high-end achievements, which is the same thing his voters saw. I've only mentioned that a gazillion times on this thread. Your post actually is a perfect example of trying to erase reality with words. 4 hours ago, merjet said: Do you have that low of opinion of the credibility of every President in US history? Just the ones since Reagan, including the last year or so of his administration. Oddly enough, I thought what Carter said was credible. Wrong as hell, incompetent and misguided, but I didn't think he was lying to anyone or secretly pushing the US toward a globalist dictatorship by technocrats. Getting back to deeds, Trump is already encouraging companies to stay in the US and create jobs for Americans. He's doing that through the filter of the presidency although he's not in office yet. For a couple of months without being sworn in, I think he's already achieved a nice little pile of deeds. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorbenDallas Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Trump has the same spirit, as I believe, the majority of his supporters do. So whatever he is going to do with health care will be in that spirit. Truncquote! You mean like this kind of spirit? 5 Times Donald Trump Praised Socialized Healthcare (and #6 , which happened Jan 14th, 2017). 5 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said: Ideological purists don't want that. Truncquote #2! They generally want to know: how ya gonna pay for it?? And who's gonna pay for it?! Who cares!! Make Healthcare Great Again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 You know, I've been getting this same kind of stuff every since Jeb Bush was supposed to be the nominee--guaranteed. I just keep on keepin' on, though. Now Trump's gonna be prez. Then he's gonna start fixing things for real. I have a prediction. No matter how many times he succeeds, no matter how great those achievements will be, against how overwhelming the odds, those who don't like him will keep on mocking him as some kind of buffoon who doesn't stand a chance to get anything right. So instead of being prepared for a year and a half of crap, now I am prepared for eight years of crap. And still gonna keep winning... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeyfoot Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 14 hours ago, KorbenDallas said: From Jan 6th Rand Paul: Trump 'fully supports my plan to replace Obamacare' From Jan 10th So it seems like pre-existing conditions and dependent children to 26 are going to stay. I'm not as optimistic as Rand Paul is about his plan, but I think it would be better than Obamacare. Yes they will stay. The penalty may go. But repeal? Ha. Might as well call it revision. Which is closer to the truth but doesnt have nearly the gravitas that "repeal" does. Details may change but the basic provisions are what makes ACA worthy of the scrap heap. It reminds me of the phrase, if you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bs. The problem is - the foundations cracked. ) Much the same as health is compromised by an irrational junkie bent on opiates who takes methodone to treat the addiction. What changed? Hes now a govt addict. The guy claiming a repeal of ACA is rebranding it as significant changes stuck onto the same foundation. Which means the cornerstone will be left standing and will force restrictions on what will and wont be able to be undone. Something like what child buyers accomplished with Comprachicos. ;) Being a builder of buildings hasnt provided for differentiation for this cobbler of political compromise that I am able to put my finger on. Action, we are told, is forthcoming. If his words are of any solace, meaning will be found in his deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turkeyfoot Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, BaalChatzaf said: Let us wait and see. He doesn't punch in on the job until 12:00 noon this Friday. To be fair about actions and its consequences itd be prudent to wait and see exactly what has been accomplished in a couple of years. Given the glacial movement of leviathan beauracracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Turkeyfoot wrote: To be fair about actions and its consequences it’d be prudent to wait and see exactly what has been accomplished in a couple of years. Given the glacial movement of leviathan bureaucracy. end quote And Michael wrote: So instead of being prepared for a year and a half of crap, now I am prepared for eight years of crap. end quote Or . . . the shit mouths will become more irrelevant as time marches on. You may find yourself using words like “dipshit, asshole, and who gives a crap.” From NBC News: “Anonymous to Trump. You will regret the next four years.” Have you ever heard anything so revoltingly, awful? They have reached a new low at NBC. I have never used this word before, but they are a *disgrace.* They are indescribably vicious. Dump them. Do not listen to them. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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