Family Values Still Threaten GOP

[Brant Gaede]

I can't help but think that Evangelicals are going to quit politics, as gays continue to win court battles and Dems win elections. Much depends on the mid-terms in November, a last hurrah for the Tea Party movement. If they can't break the Senate majority, stop illegal immigration, repeal Obamacare and undo Roe v Wade, it's game over. Church attendance is declining and FSA Hispanics are solidly Democrat. Glenn Beck is slightly ahead of the curve "going Galt" to escape Sodom. Northern counties of California want to secede.

If Hillary wins in 2016, the End is Nigh.

Without reading your book--yet--am I entitled to think of you as a (cultural) conservative and an (intellectual) radical? And if so, how do you resolve the seeming conflict?

--Brant

[Wolf DeVoon]

am I entitled to think of you as a (cultural) conservative and an (intellectual) radical? And if so, how do you resolve the seeming conflict?

I dunno, Brant. In the past, folks said I was a gadfly, wannabe, freethinker, ex-convict, visionary, lawman, nitwit (according to G. Gordon Liddy), star-crossed, a grandfather, asshole, friend, poet, "horse", rainmaker, een Americaanse regisseur, a guy, and "an interesting character even by anarcho-libertarian standards" (Ali Massoud). My daughter calls me Dad.

My wife and I are Objectivists, atheists, pretty square, slightly reckless with money. We don't use television, never go to movies. During the past seven years, we've lived and worked in two dozen cities on six continents. My daughter went to kindergarten at the International School of The Martyrs in Tripoli for half a year, then Wharton Elementary in Houston for half a year (which was infinitely worse than the bullies in Libya). She's on her third passport and just completed 6th grade at home with coursework from University of Missouri.

A little excerpt from my book, on the subject of Competence, in the context of Liberty:

Their dreams and ambitions matter. Shortly before her 12th birthday, my daughter became sad, silent, deeply troubled and withdrawn. I let it go for a day or two. Privacy is the existential fountainhead of growth. But her silence persisted longer than I thought was healthy, so I knocked on her bedroom door and sat down. She didn't want to talk about it. I promised not to tell Mom. I promised not to laugh or think she was crazy. Eventually she unwound enough to tell me. She wanted to travel in outer space to other star systems.

I told her that it might be possible during her lifetime. Not during my lifetime, but perhaps in hers. I explained that to become an astronaut, she would first have to learn how to fly an airplane. Thinking of that moment again, just now, I burst into tears. They are streaming down my cheeks as I write. Fatherhood is an emotional business.

Her pilot's flight bag is in the living room, a heavy black vinyl thing on wheels with zipper pockets stuffed full of manuals and checklists and maps and flight calculators; no different than the flight bag you'd see a commercial pilot wheel along into the cockpit of his 747.

She completed aviation ground school in four months, the youngest candidate at age 12, and now has 5 hours logged as Pilot Flying with her instructor as a co-pilot. She learned to do the complete pre-flight engine, fuel, and control surface checks. She did her own taxiing and takeoffs and landings, sitting on a pillow so she could see over the instrument panel. I watched her take off in a strong crosswind. My heart was in my throat as her plane wobbled aloft.

[The Constitution of Government in Galt's Gulch, pp.18-19]

As a teenager, I set out to be a filmmaker. Apparently I was particularly stupid, because it took 20 years to learn how to be a director.

That's basically all I know about myself, apart from the fact that I'm happy and far less successful than I hoped to be.

I had hoped for a life like David Lean or Stanley Kubrick. In a pinch, I would have settled for Fred Zinneman. What I got instead was Wolf DeVoon -- an isolated beatnik with a second-class brain, whose idea of a good time is a newspaper and a cup of coffee at Denny's. ["Individualism", G21 World Magazine]

[PDS]

That's an argument from smell.

Your clever expressions of disagreement have been noted, Brant.

And that's your perfect right to promote your view that homosexuality has nothing to do with morality. Turn around and take a look, and you'll find the whole politically correct culture standing right there behind you. The overwhelming popular consensus of collective society is in total agreement with you.

I'm not here for the views. I'm not here for ignorance. I'm here for reason or facts plus logic, aka, knowledge.

We each have knowledge. Different knowledge. Yours comes from data numbers and "studies"... while I derive my knowledge from my own direct personal observations of the lives of others around me. Understanding is non transferrable... and that's why I don't use words to try to convince others, but rather use my words simply to express my own view as well as to convey the fact that I am unconvinced by the words of others.

The experience of real life... now THAT has the power to convince!

You just want what you think or claim are facts

It's not a matter of wanting... but of actually seeing the workings of objective reality in the unfolding consequences of people's actions.

but can't demonstrate they really are facts,

That is quite true...

My own personal experience cannot be transferred to others, and this is why I'm ok with you believing in your data, numbers, and "studies". It's not for me to try to convince you otherwise. It cannot be done so I don't even bother wasting energy trying. It's the job of real life to convince you by the consequences of your own actions.

Instead of arguing... I'm taking the time to tell exactly what I'm doing... clearly and completely explaining what my approach is to the discussions here.

and go mantraing moral high-horsing here.

Each of us freely chooses how important a role morality plays in our own life. So I express my own choice... and that you are free to do whatever you wish.

Greg

I have no "data numbers or 'studies'". Pay attention. You have "facts" that you also say aren't facts or at least demonstrable as facts.

No human activity is exempt from morality if choice is involved.

Your epistemology is without the use of verifiable facts, logic or reason and consists of implicit use of reason as a stolen concept. Not once in all your OL postings I'm aware of--I've read most of them--have you ever explicitly embraced reason or explicitly used reason in defence of any of your positions. Greasing yourself up with your "experiences" so you can slip and coast through these discusions without worrying about friction from dissent and demands for logic if not real ratiocination only begs the question of why you, a troll, is here. I know part of the answer, of course: we keep feeding you.

--Brant

I don't necessarily object to a troll for being a troll, but I would never be one unless I could collect tolls--or at least eat the occassional juicy passerby--but eventually, if they stick around, they all turn into satiated bores (that's my "experience")

Finally.

A is A.*

*Look it up, Greg.

[moralist]

The right to marry--under the law--requires a law no one has a right to.

Marriage--legal marriage--is a form of slavery to the state and each partner to the other partner.

Marriage as a legally enforced contract is also a form of slavery, but quite debateable on that point.

Marriage through a religious or any kind of purely secular ceremony sans law is okay.

Thus is libertarianism. However, since almost all and sundry want legalized marriage, I say if gays want to enslave themselves one to the other they can go right ahead.

As a practical and moral manner, I say let each state decide what kind of marriage they will recognize. The Feds can butt out except for delimited and special cases falling outside individual state jurisdiction.

--Brant

I'll just note that love is the definitive answer to all of your complaints.

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

I'll just note that love is the definitive answer to all of your complaints.

Fromm, Jesus, and Paul McCartney all rolled into one.

[PDS]

am I entitled to think of you as a (cultural) conservative and an (intellectual) radical? And if so, how do you resolve the seeming conflict?

I dunno, Brant. In the past, folks said I was a gadfly, wannabe, freethinker, ex-convict, visionary, lawman, nitwit (according to G. Gordon Liddy), star-crossed, a grandfather, asshole, friend, poet, "horse", rainmaker, een Americaanse regisseur, a guy, and "an interesting character even by anarcho-libertarian standards" (Ali Massoud). My daughter calls me Dad.

My wife and I are Objectivists, atheists, pretty square, slightly reckless with money. We don't use television, never go to movies. During the past seven years, we've lived and worked in two dozen cities on six continents. My daughter went to kindergarten at the International School of The Martyrs in Tripoli for half a year, then Wharton Elementary in Houston for half a year (which was infinitely worse than the bullies in Libya). She's on her third passport and just completed 6th grade at home with coursework from University of Missouri.

A little excerpt from my book, on the subject of Competence, in the context of Liberty:

Their dreams and ambitions matter. Shortly before her 12th birthday, my daughter became sad, silent, deeply troubled and withdrawn. I let it go for a day or two. Privacy is the existential fountainhead of growth. But her silence persisted longer than I thought was healthy, so I knocked on her bedroom door and sat down. She didn't want to talk about it. I promised not to tell Mom. I promised not to laugh or think she was crazy. Eventually she unwound enough to tell me. She wanted to travel in outer space to other star systems.

I told her that it might be possible during her lifetime. Not during my lifetime, but perhaps in hers. I explained that to become an astronaut, she would first have to learn how to fly an airplane. Thinking of that moment again, just now, I burst into tears. They are streaming down my cheeks as I write. Fatherhood is an emotional business.

Her pilot's flight bag is in the living room, a heavy black vinyl thing on wheels with zipper pockets stuffed full of manuals and checklists and maps and flight calculators; no different than the flight bag you'd see a commercial pilot wheel along into the cockpit of his 747.

She completed aviation ground school in four months, the youngest candidate at age 12, and now has 5 hours logged as Pilot Flying with her instructor as a co-pilot. She learned to do the complete pre-flight engine, fuel, and control surface checks. She did her own taxiing and takeoffs and landings, sitting on a pillow so she could see over the instrument panel. I watched her take off in a strong crosswind. My heart was in my throat as her plane wobbled aloft.

[The Constitution of Government in Galt's Gulch, pp.18-19]

As a teenager, I set out to be a filmmaker. Apparently I was particularly stupid, because it took 20 years to learn how to be a director.

That's basically all I know about myself, apart from the fact that I'm happy and far less successful than I hoped to be.

I had hoped for a life like David Lean or Stanley Kubrick. In a pinch, I would have settled for Fred Zinneman. What I got instead was Wolf DeVoon -- an isolated beatnik with a second-class brain, whose idea of a good time is a newspaper and a cup of coffee at Denny's. ["Individualism", G21 World Magazine]

I don't agree with the "second class brain" part.

I bet you really don't either...

[Wolf DeVoon]

I don't agree with the "second class brain" part. I bet you really don't either...

Ha. My wife is baffled why I can't do "simple trig."

[moralist]

I have no "data numbers or 'studies'". Pay attention.

Well, neither do I.

But I don't need them to live my life... and you do, because you put your faith in data numbers and "studies" in regards to moral choices... and I don't.

I trust my own personal experience... and you trust "studies".

This defines the fundamental difference between how each of us approaches life.

No human activity is exempt from morality if choice is involved.

This is true... and our difference lies in what behavior we each regard as a moral choice and what is not... and I obviously regard moral choice as playing a far larger role in our behavior than do you.

Your epistemology is without the use of verifiable facts,

Facts are fully verified to me, and so I live my life guided by my own personal experience, by my God given Conscience, and my observations of the world...

...but that verification cannot be transferred to you. You need to man up and go get your own verification for yourself, and quit expecting me or others to spoon feed fake facts to you in the form of "studies"...

...as if "studies" could actually be of any more value in guiding your decisions in life than your own common sense!

When I state my view, I fully disclose that it is only my view drawn solely from my own experience of my own life as well as the observations of the lives of others over decades. So when I state my view, there is absolutely no expectation nor is there any influence for you to believe what I say. I never feel entitled to agreement from you or anyone else.

You either agree with what I say... or you disagree. And that's for you to work out on your own... and not for me to try to do it for you. You need to learn how to live by your own conclusions...

...and not by stupid "studies".

Greg

l

[moralist]

I'll just note that love is the definitive answer to all of your complaints.

Fromm, Jesus, and Paul McCartney all rolled into one.

...except they each had totally different ideas of what love is.

Greg

[moralist]

I can't help but think that Evangelicals are going to quit politics, as gays continue to win court battles and Dems win elections. Much depends on the mid-terms in November, a last hurrah for the Tea Party movement. If they can't break the Senate majority, stop illegal immigration, repeal Obamacare and undo Roe v Wade, it's game over. Church attendance is declining and FSA Hispanics are solidly Democrat. Glenn Beck is slightly ahead of the curve "going Galt" to escape Sodom. Northern counties of California want to secede.

If Hillary wins in 2016, the End is Nigh.

Very perceptive comments, Wolf...

If the Americans go Galt... that would leave the moochers and the looters to feed upon each other just as they deserve.

(I'm already living in the "Gulch"... )

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I have no "data numbers or 'studies'". Pay attention.

Well, neither do I.

But I don't need them to live my life... and you do, because you put your faith in data numbers and "studies" in regards to moral choices... and I don't.

I trust my own personal experience... and you trust "studies".

This defines the fundamental difference between how each of us approaches life.

No human activity is exempt from morality if choice is involved.

This is true... and our difference lies in what behavior we each regard as a moral choice and what is not... and I obviously regard moral choice as playing a far larger role in our behavior than do you.

Your epistemology is without the use of verifiable facts,

Facts are fully verified to me, and so I live my life guided by my own personal experience, by my God given Conscience, and my observations of the world...

...but that verification cannot be transferred to you. You need to man up and go get your own verification for yourself, and quit expecting me or others to spoon feed fake facts to you in the form of "studies"...

...as if "studies" could actually be of any more value in guiding your decisions in life than your own common sense!

When I state my view, I fully disclose that it is only my view drawn solely from my own experience of my own life as well as the observations of the lives of others over decades. So when I state my view, there is absolutely no expectation nor is there any influence for you to believe what I say. I never feel entitled to agreement from you or anyone else.

You either agree with what I say... or you disagree. And that's for you to work out on your own... and not for me to try to do it for you. You need to learn how to live by your own conclusions...

...and not by stupid "studies".

Greg

I don't put my "faith" anywhere for I have none. Replicable studies are the heart of scientific methodogy and reflect the tentativeness of knowledge. You start and stop with absolutism and when it comes to that even Ayn Rand can't shine your boots, but it's good to avoid making mistakes with electricity or flying an airplane for the more things are studied, numbers and all, the less we need tentativeness or should relie on it for there is no abolutism in tentativeness either. We don't say, gee, if I shoot myself in the head, isn't the damage to come problematic? -

--Brant

uh, I'm still looking for your reason, not your opinions, but without much enthusiasm

I have no idea how and whyyou keep telling someone the ratio between the importance you place on moral choices and he does and always in your favor for you always do it in your supposed right way--strikes me as moral and practical narcissim rolled up in a bunch

[moralist]

I don't put my "faith" anywhere for I have none.

Sure you do, Brant.

You put your faith in "studies" for your moral guidance... and I don't.

Replicable studies are the heart of scientific methodogy and reflect the tentativeness of knowledge.

That's fine for science... but what of self knowledge? What about the moral aspect of life not just the physical?

We don't say, gee, if I shoot myself in the head, isn't the damage to come problematic?

That is the superiority of common sense over "studies". Only those without common sense shoot first. It's a self correcting process that weeds out those without common sense.

uh, I'm still looking for your reason, not your opinions, but without much remaining enthusiasm

You don't agree with my opinions, so it logically follows that my reason is useless to you. And I suggest you stop... because you've been looking in the wrong place for the wrong thing.

You would be far better served by looking for your own reason instead of trying to find it in others.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Ah, Greg, you have no reason and I have no faith. You don't even know you're an irrationalist but have an opinion I must be one. Self knowledge is fine and dandy; we all have a lot of it. I might even have more than you do. I still can't remember any studies I've ever used for self knowledge. I suspect zip. You, however, turn self knowledge into absolute knowledge of other people in inappropriate and ignorant ways. In a sense I'm only objecting to how you always mix them up.

--Brant

[Wolf DeVoon]

Sorry to interrupt. This must be seen to be believed. zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-07/death-and-decay-detroit-real-time-seen-streets

[Selene]

Sorry to interrupt. This must be seen to be believed. zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-07/death-and-decay-detroit-real-time-seen-streets

Sadly, it is well known.

I highly suggest reading Robert Caro's [admittedly an annoying marxist prick...however, technically a "decent" researcher's book about Robert Moses.

It is THE textbook about how to encyst your policy ideas into the long term budgeting, city planning, land use community planning boards, etc.

A...

[moralist]

Sorry to interrupt. This must be seen to be believed. zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-07/death-and-decay-detroit-real-time-seen-streets

Your "interruptions" are always welcome, Wolf.

That physical rot is only a physical symptom of the European liberal socialist moral rot which causes it. It's important for Americans to live in places which are beyond the reach of that rot by separating themselves from those whose lack of morality causes it. This is one way to avoid becoming collatoral damage.

After the rot has run its course and nature has reclaimed the land, it will again be fit for habitation by the Americans who are still here.

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

... only a physical symptom of the European liberal socialist moral rot ...

Don't be silly. It was Negroes. All the white people left.

[moralist]

Ah, Greg, you have no reason and I have no faith.

More accurately... I live by my own common sense, and you believe in "studies".

You, however, turn self knowledge into absolute knowledge of other people in inappropriate and ignorant ways.

Whatever I say about others can only be subjective opinion, just like everyone elses' subjective opinions. So you're perfectly free to subjectively disagree with my subjective opinions. After all, that's what we are... subjective beings who either subjectively agree or subjectively disagree with objective reality.

Only objective reality is the final judge with the power of speaking the last word by rendering the final verdict upon our actions by what we get as the result of what we do.

In a sense I'm only objecting to how you always mix them up.

Perhaps you're actually disagreeing with my certainty. Whenever I learn something directly by my own personal experience in the real world, I'm certain of it from the top of my head down to the tips of my toes...

...and "studies" don't mean squat.

Greg

[moralist]

... only a physical symptom of the European liberal socialist moral rot ...

Don't be silly. It was Negroes. All the white people left.

Good point...

Blacks in America generally did adopt European liberal socialist values while rejecting American values. Democratic voting records place that fact beyond dispute.

Greg

[Wolf DeVoon]

while rejecting American values

Okay, I give up. What are "American values"?

[Brant Gaede]

The parasites took over and the producers fled, incuding blacks.

--Brant

a white mayor started it over 50 years ago--there's not been a white mayor since

[Wolf DeVoon]

Something's obviously cockeyed (nationally).

[Brant Gaede]

Ah, Greg, you have no reason and I have no faith.

More accurately... I live by my own common sense, and you believe in "studies".

You, however, turn self knowledge into absolute knowledge of other people in inappropriate and ignorant ways.

Whatever I say about others can only be subjective opinion, just like everyone elses' subjective opinions. So you're perfectly free to subjectively disagree with my subjective opinions. After all, that's what we are... subjective beings who either subjectively agree or subjectively disagree with objective reality.

Only objective reality is the final judge with the power of speaking the last word by rendering the final verdict upon our actions by what we get as the result of what we do.

In a sense I'm only objecting to how you always mix them up.

Perhaps you're actually disagreeing with my certainty. Whenever I learn something directly by my own personal experience in the real world, I'm certain of it from the top of my head down to the tips of my toes...

...and "studies" don't mean squat.

Greg

Ah, you got some studies on that?

--Brant

I certainly don't disagree with certainty as such

[moralist]

while rejecting American values

Okay, I give up. What are "American values"?

One distinctly American value is "making money".

The value that you can actually do honest productive work to create your own wealth by bettering the lives of others... instead of taking it from someone else or having it being given to you by the government. I can list others, but I think you can get the idea from that one without me needing to belabor the point.

Greg

[Reidy]

In addition to moralist's refusal to provide evidence, which several have called him on, I see an additional problem in his theory that child molestation causes homosexuality: it flies in the face of prima facie common sense. If an experience has been terrifying or traumatic, one will presumably want to avoid that experience thereafter, not spend the rest of one's life trying to recreate it.

The fact that a statement runs counter to intuition or common sense is not quite a disproof. The fact that the earth is spherical (when we can see otherwise simply by looking around, not to mention that if it were round we'd all fall off the sides and bottom) is an example to the contrary. It does mean, however, that one who makes such a claim had better have good enough evidence to overcome intuition.

A thought occurs: is this supposed to happen only to people who've been molested by someone of the opposite sex? In that case I withdraw my objection.