Obama Endangers Israel

[Francisco Ferrer]

Your claim that government gives us what we deserve is based on lies

... in your view.

My view is based upon my own personal experience as well as my observations of others. In this instance it is reading your impotent complaints, and your A = B view that what you sow has absolutely nothing to do with what you reap. While the objective A = A reality of the circumstances of your own life as described in your own words says otherwise.

In Post #91 you used me as an example to prove that we get the government we deserve:

You've stated repeatedly that you do not want to pay taxes to the government for the public services you receive. You've stated repeatedly that it's wrong for the government to collect tax money from you to pay for the public infrastructure you use.

You fully deserve to feel exactly as you do that you're being robbed by the government, because you expect someone else to pay for the public services you receive...

That, as I have shown, is a lie. Therefore, your claim that government serves out just rewards is based on a lie.

In this context, it is not surprising that you contently pay taxes to Obama's government and consider yourself free. Many Germans thought they were free under Hitler.

Back into the dead past again like a blind scribe... That blindness is what renders you incapable of properly dealing with the present. And that's why you're a slave of the government in the present.

You live by history, while I live by experience. This is why we each have completely different attitudes towards life which set into motion completely different experiences of how government treats each of us.

Greg

If the past is of no interest, no use, then we would have to release murders, rapists and molesters from prison as their crimes exist only in the "dead past," not in the present. A contract would not be enforceable because it was signed not in the present but in the "dead past."

We would have to reject the word of every book written in or about the "dead past," including the Holy Bible, because Nazi Germany was not part of our experience, nor the Civil War, nor the signing of the Declaration of Independence, nor the Sermon on the Mount, nor the Crucifixion.

[moralist]

Therefore, your claim that government serves out just rewards is based on a lie.

Currently, the government seizes a third of my income from me; I am its slave for virtually four months out of the year

Time to grow up, Fred. That's how the government pays for the public services that you use.

If the past is of no interest...

In your view... history guides your actions in the present.

In my view... experience guides my actions in the present.

This sums up each of our irreconcilable views.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

Therefore, your claim that government serves out just rewards is based on a lie.

Currently, the government seizes a third of my income from me; I am its slave for virtually four months out of the year

Time to grow up, Fred. That's how the government pays for the public services that you use.

If the past is of no interest...

This further demonstrates that you respond to posts without reading them. I have already said in this thread that the government can raise funds through non-coercive means, such as user fees, which are not a form of robbery, and that I would pay such fees.

But why bother reading what other people have written? The writing of others occurred in the "dead past," and it is only your own experience that guides your actions in the present.

In your view... history guides your actions in the present.

In my view... experience guides my actions in the present.

This sums up each of our irreconcilable views.

Greg

Again, if we have no personal experience of a man's criminal record or his history of alcohol abuse or his inability to pay his debts or his poor work history, we would have to treat him as just as qualified as any other candidate for the job we are offering.

After all, what's the point of consulting someone else's history with the candidate, when only our own experience with him matters?

And why bother looking at consumer ratings or asking friends about their opinions of certain cars, appliances, books, etc. when what happened to them lies in the dead past and only our own experience with products matters?

Why look at someone else's wheel when we can have the experience of re-inventing the wheel ourselves?

[moralist]

This further demonstrates that you respond to posts without reading them.

I read your posts. I simply remain unconvinced by your A = B view, because what you claim you are does not match what you're complaining about.

I have already said in this thread that the government can raise funds through non-coercive means, such as user fees, which are not a form of robbery, and that I would pay such fees.

Since utopian fantasies are utterly powerless to set public policy, it's fitting that you pay taxes for the services you receive.

Again, if we have no personal experience of a man's criminal record...

I'm talking about you, not about others. This is the reason you handle reality so poorly, and can only end up complaining about how you are a slave... and the real irony is you don't even have the foggiest notion that is a judgment you have already pronounced upon yourself... and the self imposed sentence you now serve is just the foregone conclusion.

Both Paul and Jesus gave some really good advice on how to properly deal with the objective reality of this world. Even though this advice will fall on your blind eyes, perhaps after the reality of your own self imposed slavery has finished giving you the good working over you fully deserve, it might actually come to mean something to you.

Paul:

"For no temptation has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear. But God is faithful to His Word and to His compassionate nature, and He can be trusted not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will always also provide the means of escape to a landing place, that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently."

Jesus:

"Behold, I am sending you out like sheep in the midst of wolves; be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

This further demonstrates that you respond to posts without reading them.

I read your posts. I simply remain unconvinced by your A = B view, because what you claim you are does not match what you're complaining about.

If you had read my posts then you would know that taxes are only one of the ways that public services can be paid for.

"What you claim you are does not match what you're complaining about."

True, a man complaining about Obama does not match Obama. Two different people.

I have already said in this thread that the government can raise funds through non-coercive means, such as user fees, which are not a form of robbery, and that I would pay such fees.

Since utopian fantasies are utterly powerless to set public policy, it's fitting that you pay taxes for the services you receive.

The British crown and most of Europe regarded the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence as an impractical, utopian fantasy. Yet the "utopians" ended up victorious and setting public policy anyway.

If it is fitting that I pay for public services I use, then it is not fitting that I pay for public services (food stamps, public housing, etc.) that I do not use, and therefore, 90% of my tax bill should be returned to me.

Again, if we have no personal experience of a man's criminal record...

I'm talking about you, not about others. This is the reason you handle reality so poorly, and can only end up complaining about how you are a slave... and the real irony is you don't even have the foggiest notion that is a judgment you have already pronounced upon yourself... and the self imposed sentence you now serve is just the foregone conclusion.

What others are you talking about? I do not know of anyone (other than yourself) who ignores history and relies entirely on personal experience to form conclusions about the world around him:

In your view... history guides your actions in the present.

In my view... experience guides my actions in the present.

If, in your opinion, identifying abusive government power is handling "reality so poorly," then any critic of tyranny and the violation of man's rights would be handling it poorly, including Ayn Rand, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith, and Patrick Henry.

Apparently, when Jefferson wrote, "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness," he was pronouncing judgment upon himself and giving himself a self-imposed sentence.

Well, in case you haven't heard (due to avoiding history as a guide), Jefferson's side won the Revolution.

[moralist]

This further demonstrates that you respond to posts without reading them.

I read your posts. I simply remain unconvinced by your A = B view, because what you claim you are does not match what you're complaining about.

If you had read my posts then you would know that taxes are only one of the ways that public services can be paid for.

"What you claim you are does not match what you're complaining about."

True, a man complaining about Obama does not match Obama. Two different people.

No.

Any American who enjoys his God given right to liberty doesn't need to complain about Obama like you do, because he isn't a slave of the government like you are. Your complaining about being enslaved by the government does not match (A = B) what you claim you are.

I tell you, if you truly lived a life deserving of liberty,

you would already be enjoying that liberty right now!

But you don't... so you don't. A = A

I have already said in this thread that the government can raise funds through non-coercive means, such as user fees, which are not a form of robbery, and that I would pay such fees.

You already do... those user fees are called taxes.

Grow up, quit whining, and find out for yourself how to live like an American.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

No.

Any American who enjoys his God given right to liberty doesn't need to complain about Obama like you do, because he isn't a slave of the government like you are.

God-given rights to liberty mean, among other things, being able to develop one's land without regard to the EPA, own any firearm without regard to the BATF, sell any security without regard to the SEC, hire anybody at any wage and withhold nothing, leave one's fortune to anybody with no Marxist inheritance taxes attached, and purchase or sell any drug without regard to the FDA.

That is what freedom meant to the Founders. The welfare state as we know it did not exist in their time--could not have existed--because of their unclouded vision of what rights mean.

You say Obama is not a slave of government? Damn right, he's not. He's one of the beneficiaries, one of the masters. Just like Lenin, Stalin and Hitler.

Your complaining about being enslaved by the government does not match (A = B) what you claim you are.

I have said that the income tax makes me a slave to the government for the first four months of the year. I have never said that I am not a slave to the government for the first four months of the year.

Non-contradiction.

I tell you, if you truly lived a life deserving of liberty,

you would already be enjoying that liberty right now!

But you don't... so you don't. A = A

A man deserving of liberty is someone who pays his own way, creates his own wealth, uses his own brain and sweat to produce products that sell in the free market,

A man not deserving of liberty is one who uses force or the threat thereof to steal from society's innovators, creators, entrepreneurs and dedicated workers.

If you do not think I deserve liberty, then you are in perfect agreement with the Marxists: from each according to his ability to each according to his need.

I have already said in this thread that the government can raise funds through non-coercive means, such as user fees, which are not a form of robbery, and that I would pay such fees.

You already do... those user fees are called taxes.

It seems that the vast difference between the income tax and the toll on a turnpike may be too subtle for you.

So I'll put it this way: Since I have never used Aid To Families With Dependent Children, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program, Head Start, the Legal Services Program, FEMA, NASA, the FHA, the Dept. of Agriculture, the Dept. of Commerce, the Dept. of Labor, or the Small Business Administration . . . I'll take my so-called "user fees" back.

Grow up, quit whining, and find out for yourself how to live like an American.

Greg

It's Obama and his Marxist apologists who need to grow up. An adult is independent and self-reliant. He makes his own way in the world and takes responsibility for himself. Obama, his leftist worshipers, and the welfare client-voters he rewards are the ones who are whining: insisting always that someone else take care of them, feed them, clothe them, house them, and provide them free high-speed internet.

The citizens of the early Republic, who shed their blood for a vision some considered utopian, were the true Americans and wouldn't have put up with that nonsense for a minute.

[moralist]

God-given rights to liberty mean...

...that you will NEVER enjoy that liberty unless you live a life that is deserving of those God given rights. You can't fool God. It can't be faked. It has to be real. If you aren't enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in America right here and right now...

...then you damn well don't deserve it.

I already told you the secret of how to deal with this world, and the words fell on your stone deaf ears. So it's your own damned fault you don't live like an American, and that your failure to do so has made you a slave to the government just as you rightfully deserve.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

God-given rights to liberty mean...

...that you will NEVER enjoy that liberty unless you first live a life that is deserving of those rights.

When I quoted for every temptation there is a way of escape, I already told you those words would fall on your stone deaf ears. It's your own damned fault you can't figure out how to live like an American, and that your failure has made you a slave to the government just as you rightfully deserve.

Greg

A man deserving of liberty is not someone who believes it is his duty to pay tribute to Barack Obama, to the statists in his regime, and to the Marxist academics in public universities who day and night weave his cloak of lies and propaganda.

The men and women who deserve liberty are those who teach the greatness of capitalism, the necessity of man's rights, and the treachery of modern government

[moralist]

If you can't figure out how to live like an American,

there is no one to blame but yourself.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

But I do know how: work to restore the Constitution to its original meaning and the Republic to its original promise, "to secure the blessings of liberty."

[moralist]

But I do know how: work to restore the Constitution to its original meaning and the Republic to its original promise, "to secure the blessings of liberty."

If you supposedly "know" that... then why can't you even free yourself from being a slave of the government? How pathetic is that?

It's your own personal responsibility first "to secure the blessings of liberty" for yourself by learning how to live a life deserving of that liberty before you'll ever be able to help anyone else.

It's like a fiscally irresponsible debt enslaved financial failure trying to tell other people how to be a financial success in business.

You have to first BE your words... otherwise they're just the empty impotent utopian fantasies of a failure.

Greg

[BaalChatzaf]

But I do know how: work to restore the Constitution to its original meaning and the Republic to its original promise, "to secure the blessings of liberty."

Why can't you even free yourself from being a slave of the government?

It's your own personal responsibility first "to secure the blessings of liberty" for yourself by learning how to live a life deserving of that liberty before you'll ever be able to help anyone else.

It's like a fiscally irresponsible debt enslaved financial failure trying to tell other people how to be a financial success in business.

You have to first BE your words... otherwise they're just the empty impotent utopian fantasies of a failure.

Greg

If we restored the Constitution to its -original meaning- we would have to re-introduce chattel slavery and reinstate the Federal fugitive slave statutes.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Peter]

Bob wrote:

If we restored the Constitution to its -original meaning- we would have to re-introduce chattel slavery and reinstate the Federal fugitive slave statutes.

end quote

That would be wicked, and the Tao instructs us to live a virtuous life. Here is something that struck me about your comment. How many things were legal back one second after the last signature on the Constitution that are illegal now? Of course, slavery was legal, but also pot (Jefferson grew hemp for rope, but not for bonging) and a whole bunch of economic freedoms. So if we but go back to the original we would still need to fix the Constitution, then adopt the “Liberty Amendments,” put more teeth into the Ninth, etc.

[Francisco Ferrer]

But I do know how: work to restore the Constitution to its original meaning and the Republic to its original promise, "to secure the blessings of liberty."

If you supposedly "know" that... then why can't you even free yourself from being a slave of the government? How pathetic is that?

For the same reason the "pathetic" Jefferson, Adams and Franklin couldn't free themselves from the Intolerable Acts in 1774. The Revolution hadn't started yet.

It's your own personal responsibility first "to secure the blessings of liberty" for yourself by learning how to live a life deserving of that liberty before you'll ever be able to help anyone else.

By not initiating force against others I set an example of the appropriate way to conduct oneself in a social setting. I thereby enhance my credibility as I spread the word about the greatness of capitalism, the necessity of rights, and the need for limited government.

The American Revolutionaries were not dumb enough to think that each of them acting alone could overcome the king's army. But acting in union and in coordination they were able to defeat the most powerful military force in the world.

It's like a fiscally irresponsible debt enslaved financial failure trying to tell other people how to be a financial success in business.

You have to first BE your words... otherwise they're just the empty impotent utopian fantasies of a failure.

Greg

It's like a tyrant demanding that the people work harder and harder while the tyrant spends more and more on himself. Eventually, the people will have had enough, and the tyrant will be what you like to call "dead history."

So, following Ayn Rand, I will be an advocate of capitalism, individual rights and limited government.

The end I seek is no more utopian than the government that began in 1776.

[Francisco Ferrer]

Ba'al Chatzaf wrote:

If we restored the Constitution to its -original meaning- we would have to re-introduce chattel slavery

Why? Pennsylvania was not kicked out of the union in 1780 when it abolished slavery.

[moralist]

If you supposedly "know" that... then why can't you even free yourself from being a slave of the government? How pathetic is that?

For the same reason the "pathetic" Jefferson, Adams and Franklin couldn't free themselves from the Intolerable Acts in 1774. The Revolution hadn't started yet.

( psst, Fred... the revolutionary war already ended... and the Americans won. )

So why haven't you freed yourself from being a slave of the government?

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

For the same reason the "pathetic" Jefferson, Adams and Franklin couldn't free themselves from the Intolerable Acts in 1774. The Revolution hadn't started yet.

( psst, Fred... the revolutionary war already ended... and the Americans won. )

So why haven't you freed yourself from being a slave of the government?

Greg

Here's where your antagonism to studying the "dead past" lets you down. The Revolution was betrayed. The victory achieved by Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and Washington was undone. The principles enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights were steadily eroded by successive generations of cowardly, mendacious, and power-hungry politicians. The assault on liberty was further compounded by "temporary" powers grabbed during the Civil War, World Wars I and II, the Cold War and the War on Terror. (Not that the founding charter was perfect. As Rand put it, "Certain contradictions in the Constitution did leave a loophole for the growth of statism.")

Thus we now have a bigger, more powerful, more invasive government and far less freedom than we did when this land belonged to the British Empire. Tax rates alone show this. Under British rule, the average American paid about 2% in taxes. Today it is about 23%.

I am working to restore the birthright Americans gave away for a mess of pottage.

[anthony]

By not initiating force against others I set an example of the appropriate way to conduct oneself in a social setting. I thereby enhance my credibility as I spread the word about the greatness of capitalism, the necessity of rights, and the need for limited government.

So, following Ayn Rand, I will be an advocate of capitalism, individual rights and limited government.

"Not initiating force" hardly sounds like anything that exemplary. And pretty much a default position. Look, iow, at what I DON'T do.

I think this is a selective reading of Rand, Francisco. How are we going to get to capitalism etc. - and keep it - without spreading the word about a real morality, rational selfishness?

[moralist]

For the same reason the "pathetic" Jefferson, Adams and Franklin couldn't free themselves from the Intolerable Acts in 1774. The Revolution hadn't started yet.

( psst, Fred... the revolutionary war already ended... and the Americans won. )

So why haven't you freed yourself from being a slave of the government?

Greg

Here's where your antagonism to studying the "dead past" lets you down...

You did not answer this simple question, and so I'm asking you directly again:

Why haven't you freed yourself from being a slave of the government?

Greg

[Peter]

Francisco wrote:

The principles enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights were steadily eroded by successive generations of cowardly, mendacious, and power-hungry politicians.

end quote

It was not men who did that. It was the Borg but the Borg have thought about it and now you will be assimilated, Philosophically and historically, into The United States of Objectivist Government. I suggest a strategy of engagement because the constitutional government as it now exists IS the intermediate step towards our ideal. Without an intermediate step, the theoretical premise and promise of universal *natural rights* is but a prayer. If the Philosopher cannot articulate the simplest Sherlock Holmes-ean intermediate state, then his premise is shallow and unworkable. You can’t stop participating and expect to be a player! If an Objectivist Government’s proponents demand its existence NOW, it will always be viewed as “not serious.” This is the time when they pass the plate. Donate.

Francisco wrote:

Thus we now have a bigger, more powerful, more invasive government and far less freedom than we did when this land belonged to the British Empire. Tax rates alone show this. Under British rule, the average American paid about 2% in taxes. Today it is about 23%.

end quote

Well said. George H. Smith mentioned in his last book that 30 percent taxation was historically viewed as a pressing reason for rebellion. We have taken a punch since the Civil War. How ironic, that a war to free men and keep the Constitution alive, was one of the largest steps we have ever taken towards despotism.

Rand Paul? I think we all agree. Give him your support.

[BaalChatzaf]

Rand Paul? I think we all agree. Give him your support.

Sure. If he runs I will vote for him, but I do not expect any real changes given the nature of Congress and the burocracy.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[moralist]

Rand Paul? I think we all agree. Give him your support.

Sure. If he runs I will vote for him, but I do not expect any real changes given the nature of Congress and the burocracy.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You're wise not to depend on Congress or the bureaucracy to change the quality of your own life... as you're the only one who has full personal responsibility for that.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

Here's where your antagonism to studying the "dead past" lets you down...

You did not answer this simple question, and so I'm asking you directly again:

Why haven't you freed yourself from being a slave of the government?

Greg

I answered you yesterday in Post #115: "For the same reason the 'pathetic' Jefferson, Adams and Franklin couldn't free themselves from the Intolerable Acts in 1774. The Revolution hadn't started yet . . . The American Revolutionaries were not dumb enough to think that each of them acting alone could overcome the king's army. But acting in union and in coordination they were able to defeat the most powerful military force in the world."

America may not be as close to a change in power as it was in 1776, but certainly the objective conditions are ripe: the federal government is sinking ever deeper in debt and will soon run out of willing creditors, and the financial markets only need to see the collapse of one or two major players to produce a domino effect of no confidence.

If those who are devoted to capitalism and individual rights can influence a significant part of the population, America might just get a second chance at freedom when the dust settles.

I certainly don't think I can exert much influence if I'm lying in a jail cell for non-payment of taxes, owning a fully automatic weapon, or using contraband drugs.

[moralist]

Here's where your antagonism to studying the "dead past" lets you down...

You did not answer this simple question, and so I'm asking you directly again:

Why haven't you freed yourself from being a slave of the government?

Greg

I answered you yesterday...

Ok.

With all of your hiding in the dead past making lame excuses and blaming the liberal government and Obama, you've made it perfectly clear that you can't even free yourself from being a slave to the government in the present.

And my point all along has been that if you changed how you are living, you could be free.

The government can't take away your liberty. Obama can't take away your liberty. You are the only one who has deprived yourself of enjoying your right to liberty by the way you are living right now.

And if you don't have liberty, you don't deserve it...

...because everyone in America today who lives a life deserving of liberty already has it.

Greg