Some really worthless garbage

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... you have about as much a chance nudging me...

Heh.

This dude thinks I want to convince him of anything.

I don't.

I merely like to use him as an example of a neurotic.

Michael

[anthony]

Hm, interesting - different procedures, but all the same when you get down to it. Here, we only have one agent for seller and buyer which is obviously open to abuse or conflict of interests, I've always thought. We had our own property boom in those years, but now getting a bond from the bank is ridiculously difficult. Estate agents are struggling, so you get them all over you when you want (or don't want) to sell - and all trying to get you to sign 'sole mandate'.

I put my apartment on the market this year, and made the mistake of doing just that, instead of playing the field with other agents. The agent was next to useless in pulling in viewers, and when a potential buyer came to me personally, I had to wait out the 3 month period before she could sign the offer to purchase. Otherwise, I'd have had to pay the 7% commission to the agent. (The seller pays it here). Anyway, it's all nearly finalized, hold thumbs.

So I saved a whack of money going private, but I do have a good transfer attorney looking after my interests.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Thanks for the heads up, Bey. I saw it in Roberts post with no quote box so it looked like he said it.

Greg,

This is a new world. I wish it weren't, but it is. I would be glad to show you some studies and techniques, starting with the neuroscience behind it. I have no doubt a lot of that would surprise you. It's way beyond simple decisions right now and it's ugly.

However, the spin the Hardy-de-Har-Har boys are trying to put on this is outside of what I mean. They're doing garden variety Progressive gotcha games with no substance.

(I'm seriously wondering if OL hasn't been targeted by the government or Progressives in a propaganda operation and these dudes are part of the trolling effort you see elsewhere. I don't think OL is big enough for that, but the way these dudes have acted ever since they showed up... All they do is try to discredit this and that, sell snake oil like racism, immorality as virtue, Rand's ideas are crap and things like that. And I'm also wondering how far my patience will go with this.)

But on the persuasion thing, think of it this way. If you have to live among snakes, you either learn how not to get bit or you get eaten. (Best of all is get away from snakes, but I'm not talking about that option right now.) Then along comes some dope and says you are promoting biting and crawling on your belly as the best way of life, that this proves biting and crawling on your belly is superior to honesty and morality, congratulates you on your courage for facing the harsh reality and superiority of immoral existence, and so on. Such people miss the point that you would not protect yourself from snakes outside of the snakes.

For instance, I said above I will not use covert persuasion on this forum even though I have studied it. And I cut this crap short when I detect others trying it. I won't allow the snakes to roam freely here (although I seem to be more tolerant of monkeys ), so there is no reason to do snake stuff.

That speaks to my intentions.

And, for the record, I would never work for a jerk like Cass Sunstein, the "Paternal Libertarian" dictator-wannabe. He's the creep who was overseeing all those thousands and thousands of pages of regulations that go out into the market choking free enterprise. As gravy, his wife is the one who helped Obama make a holy mess out of the Middle East.

We have a poster on this forum who worked for Sunstein, who continues in the federal regulations field and seems to be proud of it. Doncha know, he's the covert protector of libertarian ideals. The masked superhero. Yeah, right.

In my book, that is selling out big time. I have no interest in what someone like that says. He has corrupted himself to the gills and the only way out is to spit himself out of the system and give up his goodies. Then do some serious moral hygiene. (And we know that will never happen.)

If you want to know more about what I mean and intend regarding covert persuasion, I will be happy to elaborate. If not, not.

Either way, I will leave it to you to make your own evaluation.

I know what I mean and I'm at peace with my soul. I like what I see in the mirror. I don't need to get plastered or troll forums of good people and try to corrupt their morality in order to stomach the dude looking back at me.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Generally when a salesman comes into your home he intends to make about 30% of the sale as commission. Anything less than $500 is not worth his effort. He intends to stay there several hours for the longer he talks the more likely the sale and a sale not cancelled. I tried this once years ago but the customers and I had fun talking to each other telling our stories and I didn't make any sales that stuck. When I went with another salesman to learn the ropes, I felt degraded by the crap he put out trying to get the sale. So I quit. The salesman that legitimately comes to your home is the guy trying to sell you something that attached to the home becomes "real property," like replacement windows or a new a/c system and it's at your invitation. If it's someone trying to get you to list your home for sale, 70% of what he does is get you to sign, 20% to effectively aid in negotiations, and 10% put the property into Multiple Listing. Then, if you have 1000 re agents in your city most are working for you to get you a buyer. Never mind the listing agent and all the things he told you about how he'd "sell" your home. (He can't sell what he doesn't own anyway.) It used to be it was practical to sell your home without the aid of a broker if you knew what you were doing. Not any longer. A buyer wants an agent for legal and financial protection in these screwed up markets, especially as you not he pays the 6% off the sales' price. The people who make the most money in re estate are the listers. The real value though is in the buyer's agent. If you want to buy a home--a house--get the best buyers' agent you can find. Don't let the listing agent high-ball you to get the listing then grind you down over the months on the listing price.

I recently bought a townhouse and the amount of work my buying agent performed was enormous. By the time we were finished meeting all of our regulatory requirements, documenting everything for the loan, and preparing the contractual documents, there was a stack of papers at the closing as high as a triple-layer cake. Her advice in negotiations was also valuable - she had been buying and selling in the area for over two decades, so we were benefiting from her significant informational advantage. To be honest, for the amount of work I saw her do and at such odd hours, I'm not even sure I would have taken the sale in her place. Hopefully she enjoys the work because I've heard it's very difficult. I'm not looking forward to being on the seller's side of the arrangement in a few years time and having to pay that 6% out of pocket. My hope is our home will have appreciated in value to offset the cost by then.

I've never had a door-to-door salesman come to my home. I don't believe it would end very well for them if they did - I have a short fuse for having my time wasted. When I do get the odd telemarketer on my cellphone, I just tell them to eff off and hang up.

A door to door salesman is someone I wasn't talking about. They tend to be good, honest hard-working people and mostly extinct. Not all of them. Funny story: When I was a college student in Tucson in the late 1960s a young man knocked on my apartment door selling magazine subscriptions. He held up a brochure. If I would only buy a subscription he'd have enough points to take the trip to Spain. 40 years later, in Tucson, another young man knocked on my door. He was selling subscriptions too. In absolute dis-belief to me it was exactly the same spiel except the vacation destination was somewhere else. He was also a college student who couldn't show me his college ID (because he wasn't).

For a while every Saturday, it seemed, a preacher or a bevy of middle-aged ladies would show up selling their religion. I'd run them off, except the last one to whom I was nice. I don't know why they stopped. It's also been 14 years since any Mormons have shown up. My favs.

--Brant

if you're Mormons you can come into my house and talk to me but we all got to get naked to demonstrate the strength of your faith which I've always thought was bullshit (the strength, the faith goes without saying)--good businessmen though

[Robert Baratheon]

Here, we only have one agent for seller and buyer which is obviously open to abuse or conflict of interests, I've always thought.

Absolutely, which is why representing competing interests is prohibited under most bar association codes of professional conduct. You can be fined or disbarred for it. Even representing two different defendants in the same case is frowned upon because there are so many areas in which their interests may diverge. Kind of raises the question of how a Congressman can effectively represent millions of different people...

Both the selling and buying agents I worked with told me they categorically refuse to represent both sides of a sale for this reason, although they are technically allowed to do it.

[Robert Baratheon]

All they do is try to discredit this and that, sell snake oil like racism, immorality as virtue, Rand's ideas are crap and things like that. And I'm also wondering how far my patience will go with this.

Present even one time I've advocated racism, or immorality as virtue, or called Rand's ideas crap. You can't. You're literally making things up.

Please stop misrepresenting.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

RB,

You may think you're slick, but I see you.

You're the one selling immorality as virtue. And I'm not going to argue it with you. I'm going to tolerate it up to a point, but expose it for the crap it is, until I detect you are harming the forum. Then I will take other measures.

Michael

[Robert Baratheon]

You may think you're slick, but I see you.

You're the one selling immorality as virtue. And I'm not going to argue it with you. I'm going to tolerate it up to a point, but expose it for the crap it is, until I detect you are harming the forum. Then I will take other measures.

So by all means, expose me for the readers by presenting your evidence.

If "all I do" here is advocate racism, immorality as virtue, and call Rand's ideas crap, then surely you are able to produce an example or two. Let's move your accusations out of the abstract and deal with some real concrete statements. I don't think that's so much to ask.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

RB,

You're not the one who advocates racism (actually bigotry is a better term). Your sidekick does. You merely tolerate it.

Do carry on.

I've got my eye on you.

Michael

[Selene]

All they do is try to discredit this and that, sell snake oil like racism, immorality as virtue, Rand's ideas are crap and things like that. And I'm also wondering how far my patience will go with this.

Present even one time I've advocated racism, or immorality as virtue, or called Rand's ideas crap. You can't. You're literally making things up.

Please stop misrepresenting.

Robert:

I am certain that he was not putting you in those classes of folks.

You are being well over sensitive on that one.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

All they do is try to discredit this and that, sell snake oil like racism, immorality as virtue, Rand's ideas are crap and things like that. And I'm also wondering how far my patience will go with this.

Present even one time I've advocated racism, or immorality as virtue, or called Rand's ideas crap. You can't. You're literally making things up.

Please stop misrepresenting.

Robert:

I am certain that he was not putting you in those classes of folks.

You are being well over sensitive on that one.

A...

Adam,

I was. And am.

Cass Sunstein suckups are not my kind of people.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Adam,

Here's how the game is played. If you are one of these dudes, you give some lip service to Objectivism and libertarian ideals for bonding purposes and show, then you start slipping in little bits of poison. And you start insinuating everyone but you is a hypocrite on OL. Then back off a little when it heats up and gets too obvious. You engage a person or other. But then do it some more. Then back off. Then do it some more. Then back off. And so on.

Meanwhile, the good discussions peter out.

I see this as clear as daylight.

Michael

[Robert Baratheon]

All they do is try to discredit this and that, sell snake oil like racism, immorality as virtue, Rand's ideas are crap and things like that. And I'm also wondering how far my patience will go with this.

Present even one time I've advocated racism, or immorality as virtue, or called Rand's ideas crap. You can't. You're literally making things up.

Please stop misrepresenting.

Robert:

I am certain that he was not putting you in those classes of folks.

You are being well over sensitive on that one.

Michael used the plural "they" to apply to all his accusations, meaning SB and I are these so-called operatives to be ostracized.

It's nice that he's since clarified that I don't advocate racism - after I had to call on him to do it - but he still hasn't provided any examples of my other alleged transgressions. Why he won't do this, you'll have to ask him.

[Robert Baratheon]

And you start insinuating everyone but you is a hypocrite on OL. Then back off a little when it heats up and gets too obvious. You engage a person or other. But then do it some more. Then back off. Then do it some more. Then back off. And so on.

Meanwhile, the good discussions peter out.

I see this as clear as daylight.

Michael

There are only two people I've accused of hypocrisy on OL, and I didn't insinuate it - I was very clear. I called Kacy a hypocrite for rationalizing his furtherance of The System, attacking libertarian pundits and candidates across multiple threads on OL, and aggressively peddling progressive propaganda videos on his Facebook page. I've accused him of this behavior for years, long before I came to OL, and I've told him this directly as well.

The only other instance was when you, Michael, inserted yourself into a very reasonable discussion I started on the limits of philosophy and began calling me a "preacher" over and over again ad nauseum. I called you a hypocrite for preaching about my preaching and being overly protective of the ideas your "flock" can be exposed to without your derisive commentary.

So one example predates OL, and the other example you directly instigated with uncalled for behavior. A far cry from casting aspersions on "everyone" by any measure.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

RB,

You are starting to try my patience and I have a life. I can't keep babysitting you.

I'm putting you under moderation.

It will be a pain in the ass because you are nonstop blah blah blah, but I will let the interesting ideas through. All this other stuff I will delete.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Done.

Now maybe some of these bad vibes will dissipate.

Michael

[Serapis Bey]

(although I seem to be more tolerant of monkeys )

That's flying monkeys to you, Mr. Kelly.

Mike, do you consider Charles Murray to be a "racist"? He is someone who acknolwedges the fact that society is cognitively stratified. His latest book laments the growing gap between the cognitive elite and the lower classes.

Now maybe some of these bad vibes will dissipate.

Yes, we mustn't have any bad vibes.

Remember what I said ealier about people's thinking being influenced by their need for emotional self-preservation? Some people's egos are more precariously balanced than others...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Eric,

I have met Charles Murray, but I don't know enough about his work to comment intelligently.

The only "emotional preservation" I am interested in around here is the well-being of the forum.

When I see someone dragging it down, I intervene. If the person doesn't get the message, I establish restrictions.

Michael

[Selene]

Michael used the plural "they" to apply to all his accusations, meaning SB and I are these so-called operatives to be ostracized.

It's nice that he's since clarified that I don't advocate racism - after I had to call on him to do it - but he still hasn't provided any examples of my other alleged transgressions. Why he won't do this, you'll have to ask him.

There was a time that I would have allowed myself to "take sides" on these matters.

However, I have accepted a different role in terms of a conflict like this.

We are too few to keep at each others rhetorical throats.

A...

[KacyRay]

(I'm seriously wondering if OL hasn't been targeted by the government or Progressives in a propaganda operation and these dudes are part of the trolling effort you see elsewhere. I don't think OL is big enough for that, but the way these dudes have acted ever since they showed up... All they do is try to discredit this and that, sell snake oil like racism, immorality as virtue, Rand's ideas are crap and things like that. And I'm also wondering how far my patience will go with this.)

I knew... I knew... I KNEW....

that all I needed to do was step back and keep my mouth shut long enough and the two of them would not be able to hide their true colors for very long.

Now, for those of you who remember the original spat earlier this year.... now hopefully you understand why I recoiled in horror when I was being lumped in with them. Hopefully now you understand why I left for a while. Hopefully now it makes sense.

As I said way back then - I have no problem being the guy in the room that everyone disagrees with. In fact, that can be a whole lot more rewarding than just being one of the crowd. But I sure don't want to be lumped in with trolls just because I'm their target. I'd rather walk away.

(Troll, being defined as "someone whose primary (or only) intent is provocation for the sake of provocation")

[Selene]

The devil wants to talk with you.

--Brant

no ambiguity

I think he might have an Oklahoma area code...

The Horned One may get his own monument outside Oklahoma's statehouse if the Satanic Temple has its way. Photograph: Bettmann/Corbis

In their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including Satanists who are seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument outside the statehouse.

The Republican-controlled legislature in the state known as the buckle of the Bible Belt authorised the privately funded Ten Commandments monument in 2009. It was placed on the Capitol grounds last year despite criticism from legal experts, who questioned its constitutionality. The Oklahoma chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit seeking its removal.

But the New York-based Satanic Temple saw an opportunity. It notified the state's Capitol Preservation Commission that it wants to donate a monument and plans to submit one of several possible designs this month, said Lucien Greaves, a spokesman for the temple.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/satan-ten-commandments-oklahoma-city

You can't make this crap up because the actual story is too hilarious to top fiction...

A...

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/satanic-temple-monument-in-okla-may-include-interactive-display-fo

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I knew... I knew... I KNEW....

Kacy,

Surprise!!!

I'm getting demands and accusations offline.

As usual, this got me to thinking (not about the dorky messages, but about a deeper meaning in life).

I think there is much value in the Sufi phrase: "We become what we gaze upon."

This goes hand-in-hand with Lord Acton's saying: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

What happens to a person once he is in a position of power like a regulatory agency affecting the gross of the USA economy? He gets used to calling the shots, that's what. And that makes him turn into a person who doesn't respond well to rejection or lack of control. He becomes what he gazes upon.

I once had a lawyer friend in Brazil (Mauro). His big dream in life was to be a fiction author. When I first started messing around with writing, I didn't know this as I got to talking through some of my ideas with him. We then got into a kerfuffle because of a metaphor he told me he had used in an unfinished story. I liked it and I said I might use it, too. It was something about a window and not really original, but he got way upset with me. We bickered for days over that and I finally told him he could keep his damn metaphor just to shut him up.

Later, after the dust settled, I asked him if he was so obsessive about something like that, why on earth did he not become a writer? He said when he started out, he decided to become a lawyer first. He wanted to get his finances together. Then he would go off and write as much as he pleased without having to worry about money. His eyes would light up a little when he said that.

But he said something happened along the way after he went into practice. He started turning into a lawyer inside. It was a slow process but steady. Gradually he embraced it as his identity. He no longer wanted to give that up and he did not know how to make it work with writing. Besides, the passion had died.

I asked if he loved being a lawyer and he said not particularly.

That was the saddest thing I ever had a friend tell me.

I decided I never wanted to let that to happen to me.

But I did understand why he was so neurotically possessive about a bland metaphor.

Michael

[KacyRay]

I know exactly where you're coming from. I think it's why people tend to remain similar while in proximity, but grow apart when physically removed from one another.

I'm met friends I hung out with years ago, including a very significant ex-girlfriend... people I had so much in common with at the time... and been astounded at how different we were after time had passed.

But it's not necessarily positive or negative. I know without any doubt at all that being in the service has rubbed off on me in many ways, and I've worked hard to ensure that they are all positive ways. If anyone who knew me before I went in were to meet me now and say "Man, you've changed", I am fully confident that such a statement would be complimentary. I would probably say thanks.

I enjoy what I do - sad that your lawyer friend does not. But I do share one sorrow with him - I have found that my passion for doing all the things I once aspired to do full-time (music, creativity, etc) has all but died. I basically own a full music studio with every piece of gear I need to make album after album, and I have spent entire days just sitting in it and wondering what the hell I'm doing there. No drive, no inspiration, no passion for it, nothing.

If I had owned this gear 15 years ago, or 20 years ago... oh my god, you wouldn't have been able to drag me away from it. I'd have played all day every day. I'd have played late into the night every night. But now... meh.

But I think that's a product of other forces. I know plenty of Marines who make music all the time.

(P.S. I'm getting the private messages too.)

[Selene]

I'm met friends I hung out with years ago, including a very significant ex-girlfriend... people I had so much in common with at the time... and been astounded at how different we were after time had passed.

KacyRay:

Now that is an extremely interesting remembrance.

I have always, personally, shunned "reunions."

I have rarely looked back at decisions and experiences.

I fully understand that no past decision can be undone.

Nice point.

A...

[KacyRay]

I'm met friends I hung out with years ago, including a very significant ex-girlfriend... people I had so much in common with at the time... and been astounded at how different we were after time had passed.

KacyRay:

Now that is an extremely interesting remembrance.

I have always, personally, shunned "reunions."

I have rarely looked back at decisions and experiences.

I fully understand that no past decision can be undone.

Nice point.

A...

I'm actually chronic about dwelling on the past. I've had many conversations with many folks and it took me a while to realize how extreme I am about it compared to other people.

And I'm not saying it's a good thing. I still beat myself up over things I did years ago. Sometimes I can't help but dwell on something I wish I hadn't said or hadn't done... even when the other person in question is no longer alive. That's how bad it is.

And I've introspected on the reasons why i might do this. In fact, I'll articulate them... once I get back from where I have to go right now.