Sign of the Times Middle East Style

[Richard Wiig]

Michael:

I am, unfortunately, less and less surprised by the attempts to draw a person into the semantic of their tiny argumentative box. The lack of argumentative skill is no longer a surprise to me.

I have never "understood" prejudice. I have experienced it. I have seen it in action with all its negative results, bur I have never accepted understanding how or why anyone would want to be a bigot.

As you probably are aware, sometimes I will bait someone with a statement and the knee jerk ad hominem response is, frankly hysterical.

Unfortunately, in the real world, kids get killed or seriously damaged by bigotry and prejudice,

I no longer want to give it a free ride. I have enjoyed your crystallization of the "bullying personality" because I was at a point where I was willing to tolerate it, but you convinced me that it has to be opposed where ever it rears it ugly nasty face.

Adam

Adam, I take it that you place me in the bigot category. Why exactly? Could you please do me the favour of breaking down one of my statements and explaining how and why it is bigoted?

[Richard Wiig]

Another snippet:

The hater says Islam and Nazism are practically the same thing as he blanks out massive chunks of history.

Michael is attempting to equate Nazism and Islam, the creeds, to their history. Of course they have different histories, they are of course different creeds, each being born at different periods of time. The creeds, however, share very similar ideas. It is Michael who is practicing the blank-out here (by substituting history for creed), not Bob. As I said in my other snippet, or is it an intellectual box or what, Nazism isn't dead. It still lives on in the minds of many. It may indeed one day have a long and rich, so to speak, history.

[Selene]

Michael:

I am, unfortunately, less and less surprised by the attempts to draw a person into the semantic of their tiny argumentative box. The lack of argumentative skill is no longer a surprise to me.

I have never "understood" prejudice. I have experienced it. I have seen it in action with all its negative results, bur I have never accepted understanding how or why anyone would want to be a bigot.

As you probably are aware, sometimes I will bait someone with a statement and the knee jerk ad hominem response is, frankly hysterical.

Unfortunately, in the real world, kids get killed or seriously damaged by bigotry and prejudice,

I no longer want to give it a free ride. I have enjoyed your crystallization of the "bullying personality" because I was at a point where I was willing to tolerate it, but you convinced me that it has to be opposed where ever it rears it ugly nasty face.

Adam

Adam, I take it that you place me in the bigot category. Why exactly? Could you please do me the favour of breaking down one of my statements and explaining how and why it is bigoted?

Richard:

No. I did not place you in the bigot category...yet. I do not know enough about you and your positions. You appear to advance a monolithic position on the religion/politics of "ISLAM," is that correct?

Adam

Edited January 31, 2011 by Selene

[Richard Wiig]

If you mean I say that Islam is monolithic, then no, I don't. I know that it isn't monolithic. All that's needed is the Sunni/Shiite divide to see that. What I say is that there are certain things within Islam that are destructive and inseparable, and that they are ignored at our peril. As Islam grows in the West, those destructive forces will grow with it, regardless of how nice any particular muslim might be. That we are even debating this is evidence of that. Prior to 9/11 Islam was hardly on anyone lips, but now all but the most dimwitted are aware of it.

[anthony]

Tony,

Unlike some others in this debate, I believe your views have come from what you have seen with your own eyes. That, to me, is a whole other ball game. And I believe if you saw other things with your own eyes, you would not deny what you saw.

However, what I have seen with my own eyes (along my life and among people I have known) does not correspond to the wholesale judgments you make. I have seen some of the stuff you talk about, but I have also seen other stuff--Muslims who do understand freedom and long for it.

For an obvious example, just by watching TV and listening to Egyptian commentators, I don't believe that reporter's result would have been the same in Cairo--unless he fell into a pocket of Muslim Brotherhood folks protesting.

Incidentally, I don't attribute the violent form of antisemitism in the Islamic world to the Muslim Brotherhood, although they practice it. I attribute it to leftover Nazi influence. Where you find that influence you will find rabid antisemitism. In other places, I have seen a live and let live attitude among Muslims toward Jews.

I do agree that where there is a strong penetration of antisemitic media, the average Muslim will have feelings against Israel. But I also believe that in many of those places if you remove the ringleaders, this sentiment will wither.

So I submit that the Arab world is far more diverse than people traditionally present it in these discussions.

Michael

Michael

(The "live and let live" reminds me of hearing from my mother of the happy times she had as a girl in Egypt - Alexandria, actually,- where she was born. Jews were quite well accepted in those days in Egypt.)

This heart-felt cry for freedom there cannot be ignored .

However, I admit to having become soured by my experiences on this continent - contempt for life and human dignity, not to mention individual rights, goes on, after democracy, as before. Seems like the alternatives are either mob-rule, or dictatorship. Keeping perspective is hard.

I believe your world-view is a rational (and of course, moral) one, one that I've tried to maintain myself. After all, it's too simple to give in to despair and fear; it ends up with one finding the enemy under every bed!

This is when otherwise good people may appear as logical as hell, but actually are irrational.

(Rand's definition of irrationality: "the impossible, or the insane" - and insanity is where they (or I, ) could end up.)

I know as an individualist, that every element and group has to be assessed on its own merits during these tough times in Egypt and Tunisia. 'Collectivisation' is tempting, but lazy and crazily irrational, also.

So I might slightly at variance with you on the degree of diversity among Muslims, but not with your principles.

Tony

[Selene]

If you mean I say that Islam is monolithic, then no, I don't. I know that it isn't monolithic. All that's needed is the Sunni/Shiite divide to see that. What I say is that there are certain things within Islam that are destructive and inseparable, and that they are ignored at our peril. As Islam grows in the West, those destructive forces will grow with it, regardless of how nice any particular muslim might be. That we are even debating this is evidence of that. Prior to 9/11 Islam was hardly on anyone lips, but now all but the most dimwitted are aware of it.

Richard:

I guess I have been lucky. My father took me to Mosques in Brooklyn in the late 1950's. He was a very wise man and thought that I should be aware of what one fifth of the people on the planet were about.

So I have been aware of Islam's presence in America as well as the world all my life. The tipping point began in the early 70's and culminated with our disaster in Iran.

However, your "concern" about the growth of Islam in America is clear. Now the sticky part is how do we best assimilate that growth. As you are probably aware, the conversion rate of Americans to Islam is quite strong.

The number of young women converting is strong. Why do you think they are attracted to Islam?

Adam

Edited February 1, 2011 by Selene

[Brant Gaede]

My father took me to Mosques in Brooklyn in the late 1050's. He was a very wise man.

Adam

Wow!

--Brant

[pippi]

Nobel winner and democracy advocate Mohamed Elbaradei says Obama must support the Egyptian people

Last I checked he was an ally of the muslim brotherhood.

This was the headline on the stupid yahoo homepage.

We are being manipulated. I don't know foreign policy at all but I have read this man is dangerous-and Nobel peace prizes are a dime dozen, I put NO stock in them.

Does Obama care? I guess not-link from drudge.

As revolution threatened to sweep Egypt and possibly other allies – with the horrifying prospect of Islamism replacing reliable friends – the president was on view partying with the IN crowd.

Whitehousedossierstory

[Richard Wiig]

Richard:

I guess I have been lucky. My father took me to Mosques in Brooklyn in the late 1050's. He was a very wise man and thought that I should be aware of what one fifth of the people on the planet were about.

So I have been aware of Islam's presence in America as well as the world all my life. The tipping point began in the early 70's and culminated with our disaster in Iran.

Yes, it does depend on a level of education, but even with the events of the 70's (and in the 70's politics and world events were the last thing on my mind) I think very few are well educated in Islam. It really needs to change, and I think it is gradually changing - thanks of course to the likes of Mr Spencer.

However, your "concern" about the growth of Islam in America is clear.

Not really America specifically, but the growth of Islam in the West, wherever it is. Europe is worse off than America.

Now the sticky part is how do we best assimilate that growth.

In a nutshell, by not accomodating it. The welfare state is a big problem in that regard.

As you are probably aware, the conversion rate of Americans to Islam is quite strong.

The number of young women converting is strong. Why do you think they are attracted to Islam?

Adam

No, I'm not really aware of that. As to why they're attracted, I couldn't say. There's so many potential possibilities. Each would be a personal story, but there may well be a common thread. You'd have to interview the reverts and find out what space Islam fills for them.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

... Nazism isn't dead. It still lives on in the minds of many.

Richard,

I agree that there is an small underground of Nazi fanatics. I was referring to Nazism as an active political force (political party, people in government, etc.) when I said it was dead.

The danger in the Nazi underground is not its size or government activity, but the diversity of places where it exists--all connected by the Internet. And those kooks can go off at any moment like suicide bombers. That's another issue, though.

It's obvious as all get out that Nazism is nowhere near the cultural force of Islam (or Christianity, or even Marxism for that matter). It's a mistake--or horribly misleading rhetoric for the guilty--to equivocate Islam with Nazism

It is not a mistake to show where Nazi ideology (i.e., several critical ideas, not a formal Nazi organization) survives in pockets of the Islamic world--especially when I can document this--and note the difference with the rest of the Islamic world.

Islamo-Nazis are not like skinheads, but their scapegoats, reliance on terrorism, destructiveness, etc., are identical.

Michael

[Selene]

Nobel winner and democracy advocate Mohamed Elbaradei says Obama must support the Egyptian people

Last I checked he was an ally of the muslim brotherhood.

This was the headline on the stupid yahoo homepage.

We are being manipulated. I don't know foreign policy at all but I have read this man is dangerous-and Nobel peace prizes are a dime dozen, I put NO stock in them.

Does Obama care? I guess not-link from drudge.

As revolution threatened to sweep Egypt and possibly other allies – with the horrifying prospect of Islamism replacing reliable friends – the president was on view partying with the IN crowd.

Whitehousedossierstory

Pippi:

Elbaradei is somewhat respected, but is considered an outsider who has lived in Vienna for decades where he has a home. He is out of touch with the young people who are giving this movement the juice.

The Brotherhood is playing this real smart. They probably represent about 22% of the Egyptian population, but they are highly structured and highly organized. They are using Elbaradei as a convenient foil. He is way over his head. He was the head of the IAEA [international Atomic Energy Agency] and reportedly received seven million dollars for his Presidential campaign from the Iranians for covering up their nuclear development.

He is dangerous because the Brotherhood can use him.

I will give you an example, it was announced this evening that he was going to Liberation Square to address the thousands of "assembled democracy folks" and the asshole did not even bring a speaker system. He spoke through a freakin bull horn and almost no one could hear him.

Adam

Post Script: O'biwan what a dangerous loser.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Selene

[william.scherk]

[ElBaradei] was the head of the IAEA [international Atomic Energy Agency] and reportedly received seven million dollars for his Presidential campaign from the Iranians for covering up their nuclear development.

Reported where, Adam?

Edited January 31, 2011 by william.scherk

[Richard Wiig]

It's obvious as all get out that Nazism is nowhere near the cultural force of Islam (or Christianity, or even Marxism for that matter).

It is indeed very obvious. No one has equate the two be equal in size or social and cultural scope.

It's a mistake--or horribly misleading rhetoric for the guilty--to equivocate Islam with Nazism

It's a mistake, or horribly misleading of you to suggest that Bob did equate the two in size and scope. He's refering to the similariy of the creeds, and there is nothing misleading in that. It is an actual fact, and to evade that is to try to cheat reality.

It is not a mistake to show where Nazi ideology (i.e., several critical ideas, not a formal Nazi organization) survives in pockets of the Islamic world--especially when I can document this--and note the difference with the rest of the Islamic world.

The Islamic collaboration with the Nazis is well known, but the birth of the Nazis wasn't the origin of Islamic anti-semitism, or the idea of jihad and the subjugation of non-believers. Those things were born with Muhammad,and they well documented. It was those things that make them - Jihadists - favourably inclined to work in league with nazis.

Islamo-Nazis are not like skinheads, but their scapegoats, reliance on terrorism, destructiveness, etc., are identical.

Michael

Islamo-Nazis as you call them, are Jihadists, or Mujahideen, and they draw their inspiration from Islam, not Nazism.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Richard,

By your logic, "jihadists" have been putting out suicide bombers for over 1400 years.

Gee, I wonder where they all went.

Funny, ain't it, how suicide bombers only come from places in the Islamic world where the Nazi influence is prominent?

But there's no connection.. Oh no!

That doesn't fit the hate-it-all agenda.

Michael

[pippi]

TY Selene

[Selene]

[ElBaradei] was the head of the IAEA [international Atomic Energy Agency] and reportedly received seven million dollars for his Presidential campaign from the Iranians for covering up their nuclear development.

Reported where, Adam?

William:

Tonight on the John Batchelor Show. The other night I heard about that clumped isotopes methodology to get accurate temperatures records going back almost to forever lol. I started a thread on it.

http://johnbatchelorshow.com/

I have not confirmed it yet, but Batchelor's facts have checked out extremely well for the last year. Excellent show.

http://planet-iran.com/index.php/news/23291 <<< no clue as to the value of this site

Adam

Edited January 31, 2011 by Selene

[Richard Wiig]

Richard,

By your logic, "jihadists" have been putting out suicide bombers for over 1400 years.

Where is your logic? That can't be drawn from what I've said at all. What you're talking about is martyrdom. The martyr is known in Islamic terms as a Shaheed. Martyrdom in the cause of Allah has been around ever since Muhammad turned militant, and the modern day suicide bomber is just a martyr using modern tools. Modern tools for a savage barbaric mentality.

Funny, ain't it, how suicide bombers only come from places in the Islamic world where the Nazi influence is prominent?

But there's no connection.. Oh no!

That doesn't fit the hate-it-all agenda.

Your snide comments are not endearing. Suicide bombers are actually popping up all over the place. They come from Holland, Luton England, Brussels, Kashmir, Scotland, Palestine, Chechnya, Indonesia, Pakistan, Germany, France, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen and wherever piously militant muslims might be, this includes all the countries that haven't actually produced suicide bombers yet, such as America, Australia, etc. In those cases it is just a matter of time. As Islam grows, the likelihood of homegrown martyrs grows. In fact, America has produced more than a few already, they just haven't chosen the suicide bombing route, as has Australia. The common thread to all this isn't nazism. The common thread is advocacy for Sharia and the supremacist rule of Islam over the world.

As for the hate-it-all agenda. Hate of what, exactly? The agenda is what, exactly? You keep talking of it, but you never clarify and solidify it.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Infidel

[william.scherk]

[ElBaradei] was the head of the IAEA [international Atomic Energy Agency] and reportedly received seven million dollars for his Presidential campaign from the Iranians for covering up their nuclear development.

Reported where, Adam?

Tonight on the John Batchelor Show.

[ . . . ]

http://johnbatchelorshow.com/

I have not confirmed it yet, but Batchelor's facts have checked out extremely well for the last year. Excellent show.

http://planet-iran.com/index.php/news/23291 <<< no clue as to the value of this site

Thanks for the link to the story from Planet Iran. The claim will take a bit of time to evaluate.

If you or Pippi are interested in some reporting on events leading to ElBaradei's remarks to the crowd in Egypt today, have a glance at the New York Times story here. Not as strong a source as Planet Iran or Batchelor's programme, but hey -- if we seek to poison the well against ElBaradei for Pippi, might as well give her some more fodder for her fears.

From Batchelor: "Was told three days back that if Mohamed ElBaradei makes too much noise, he will be discarded. Reuters reports that ElBaradei has joined curfew-breakers in Tahrir Square in Cairo. Am also reminded that the winner of this tussle will not be an English speaker. ElBaradei speaks English. Also, what's wrong with ElBaradei? Aaron Klein, WABC, reminds us that ElBaradei is a stooge of the jihad, a shill for the Ikhwan, and a hired agent for Tehran's mischief."

Savory stuff. Klein is apparently the World Net Daily's Jerusalem chief and author of "Manchurian President." So, there you go. Let us and Grant Mufti Wiig know when you 'confirm' Batchelor's retread . . .

Edited January 31, 2011 by william.scherk

[Selene]

[ElBaradei] was the head of the IAEA [international Atomic Energy Agency] and reportedly received seven million dollars for his Presidential campaign from the Iranians for covering up their nuclear development.

Reported where, Adam?

Tonight on the John Batchelor Show.

[ . . . ]

http://johnbatchelorshow.com/

I have not confirmed it yet, but Batchelor's facts have checked out extremely well for the last year. Excellent show.

http://planet-iran.c....php/news/23291 <<< no clue as to the value of this site

Thanks for the link to the story from Planet Iran. The claim will take a bit of time to evaluate.

If you or Pippi are interested in some reporting on events leading to ElBaradei's remarks to the crowd in Egypt today, have a glance at the New York Times story here. Not as strong a source as Planet Iran or Batchelor's programme, but hey -- if we seek to poison the well against ElBaradei for Pippi, might as well give her some more fodder for her fears.

From Batchelor: "Was told three days back that if Mohamed ElBaradei makes too much noise, he will be discarded. Reuters reports that ElBaradei has joined curfew-breakers in Tahrir Square in Cairo. Am also reminded that the winner of this tussle will not be an English speaker. ElBaradei speaks English. Also, what's wrong with ElBaradei? Aaron Klein, WABC, reminds us that ElBaradei is a stooge of the jihad, a shill for the Ikhwan, and a hired agent for Tehran's mischief."

Savory stuff. Klein is apparently the World Net Daily's Jerusalem chief and author of "Manchurian President." So, there you go. Let us and Grant Mufti Wiig know when you 'confirm' Batchelor's retread . . .

Yes I know about Klien. And Batchelor is very pro-Israeli. However, I watched Elbaradei live on Al Jazeera William, so I do not need the NY Times or Batchelor to tell me what I saw. Additionally, I saw Elbaradei interviewed by Al Jazeera three times in the last two (2) days.

Therefore, I would appreciate it if you did not try to put me in that box you are constructing. Pippi can think for herself. As can you.

Adam

[william.scherk]

I watched Elbaradei live on Al Jazeera William, so I do not need the NY Times or Batchelor to tell me what I saw.

Be that as it may, Adam -- Pippi writes of the danger of ElBaradei and you tell her he has been paid off by Iran "for covering up their nuclear development."

You confidently state that ElBaradei "is out of touch with the young people who are giving this movement the juice."

Batchelor reports partisan fearmongering and you pass it what you heard on the radio without checking it: 'a stooge of the jihad, a shill for the Ikhwan, and a hired agent for Tehran's mischief.'

Your post reinforces Pippi's unwarranted concerns about ElBaradei.

I challenge you to follow that NYT story and report back on what you discover about ElBaradei's involvement with 'the young.' Of course you don't need the NYT to tell you what you saw. But the story might tell you what you did not see . . . and thus extend your knowledge and your ability to offer fair and balanced information to someone like Pippi who has honestly told us she doesn't know a lot.

I write Wiig off as incorrigible. You can do better.

Edited January 31, 2011 by william.scherk

[william.scherk]

The latest report from Egypt suggest Tuesday will see a massive showdown in Cairo.

'Mega protest' planned in Egypt

Opposition movement calls for "a million people demonstration" on Tuesday in a bid to topple president Hosni Mubarak.

Egyptian protesters have called for a massive demonstration on Tuesday in a bid to force out president Hosni Mubarak from power.

The so-called April 6 Movement said it plans to have more than a million people on the streets of the capital Cairo, as anti-government sentiment reaches a fever pitch.

Several hundred demonstrators remained camped out in Tahrir square in central Cairo early on Monday morning, defying a curfew that has been extended by the army.

"It seems as if they are saying: 'We are here to stay. We are re-invigorating our movement and we are not going anywhere'," one of Al Jazeera's correspondents in Cairo said.

[ . . . ]

A day earlier, Mohamed ElBaradei, a leading opposition figure, joined thousands of protesters in Tahrir Square.

The former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency told the crowd on Sunday night that "what we have begun cannot go back" referring to days of anti-government protests.

The National Coalition for Change, which groups several opposition movements including the Muslim Brotherhood, wants ElBaradei to negotiate with the Mubarak government.

Edited January 31, 2011 by william.scherk

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The common thread to all this isn't nazism. The common thread is advocacy for Sharia and the supremacist rule of Islam over the world.

Richard,

Really?

Never heard of mentors, have you? Or the mentors of the mentors? You don't have to go back far. You can start with Hitler's buddy, the Grand Mufti Husseini himself. Then look who his cronies were. And the cronies of those, And so on. Then look at your map again and look who is instructing those people.

Did you know that Iran means Aryan, as in master race Aryan? Homage to Aryan racial purity was the reason for the name change. One of Hitler's men suggested it to the Shah at the time. How's that for a Nazi influence? The country used to be called Persia.

You don't even have to read. There are some excellent online documentaries online that give the entire Nazi pedigree of Sadam Hussein and his socialist Ba'ath party. I can point you to other sources for the Nazi lineage going straight into the Muslim Brotherhood. And others leading to Osama bin Laden. And on and on.

This is getting tedious, though. I don't expect to convince you. I am arguing more for the benefit of the reader.

Wherever there is terrorism and rabid antisemitism in the Islamic world, there you will find Nazi pedigree in the mentors and holy men. You will not find these things in the parts of the Muslim world where the mentors have not had this Nazi influence. Look it up. You might learn something.

You can't prove your thesis of suicide bombers or similar martyrdom for the purpose of terrorism over the 1400 years of Islam. It just didn't happen. Standard wars like everyone else did happened. But martyred terrorism as a tactic is only a recent phenomenon, so your thesis that the cause is Islam falls. Believe the contrary if you must. And don't let any facts stand in your way.

I do know one thing. People like you are not going to do a damn thing about the Wahabbi spread danger or to create peace. You will sing hatred to some choir or other (unless you come across someone like me in your haunts). Only people who correctly identify a problem can solve it. And you don't. Instead of helping solve the problem, you are helping create another. Good show.

But that's the way freedom of speech works.

I have to stop for now.

Michael

[Richard Wiig]

I haven't denied any nazi links. As I pointed out, it is well documented, but you claim that Islamic supremacism began with the Nazi link. It didn't. It began with Muhammad - and that is as equally well documented as the nazi collaboration. That Islamic faithful aligned themselves with the nazis is natural. After all, they both share the same hatred of Jews and are both supremacist in their thinking, a hatred and supremacism that is inculcated by Islam, not Nazism. Anyway, once again you avoid my questions. Hatred of what, and what agenda exactly?

[Selene]

We, the US are officially screwed...

Former President Carter guesses Egypt's Mubarak 'will have to leave'

By CHUCK WILLIAMS

PLAINS, Ga. -- Former President Jimmy Carter called the week long political unrest and rioting in Egypt an “earth shaking event” and said that the country’s president, Hosni Mubarak, “will have to leave.”Carter’s remarks came at Maranatha Baptist Church, where he regularly teaches a Sunday School class to visitors from across the country and globe.

“This is the most profound situation in the Middle East since I left office,” Carter said Sunday to the nearly 300 people packed into the small sanctuary about a half mile from downtown Plains.

Carter spent the first 15 minutes of his 50-minute class talking about Egypt.

Carter was president from 1977-81 and brokered the historic peace agreement between Israel and Egypt in 1978. He brought Egyptian President Anwar al-Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin together for an agreement that still stands today.

As the Egyptian unrest has escalated, Carter said he has been watching closely on his computer the coverage on Al Jazeera, an international news network headquartered in Qatar.

Carter knows many of the players well.

Mubarak -- the man at the center of this storm -- was vice president at the time the peace accord was signed and became president in 1981 when Sadat was assassinated. Carter, 86, called Sadat’s assassination “one of the worst days of my life.”

Carter described his relationship with Mubarak, whom protesters want ousted from power.

“I know Mubarak quite well,” Carter said. “If Sadat had a message, he would send Mubarak.”

As Mubarak’s 30-year rule has continued, the Egyptian leader has “become more politically corrupt,” Carter said.

“He has perpetuated himself in office,” Carter said.

Carter said he thought the unrest would ease in the next week, but he said his “guess is Mubarak will have to leave.”

“The United States wants Mubarak to stay in power, but the people have decided,” Carter said.

Over the years, Mubarak has been a concern.

“Other U.S. presidents would privately tell Mubarak you have got to have freedom,” Carter said.

The former president pointed to the control of the media.

“As news organizations -- television or newspapers -- criticized Mubarak, they were put out of power or in prison,” Carter said.

As the unrest raged and escalated, Mubarak appointed Omar Suleiman, the country’s intelligence chief, as vice president.

“He’s an intelligent man whom I like very much,” Carter said.

Carter has maintained a relationship with Suleiman over the years.

“In the last four or five years when I go to Egypt, I don’t go to talk to Mubarak, who talks like a politician,” Carter said. “If I want to know what is going on in the Middle East, I talk to Suleiman. And as far as I know, he has always told me the truth.”

The former president, who performs work throughout the world for fair elections through The Carter Center in Atlanta, said this was not a revolution “orchestrated by extremist Muslims.

“The Muslim brotherhood has stayed out of it,” Carter said.

Carter’s Sunday School class was attended by people from at least 19 states and three foreign countries -- Venezuela, China and Bulgaria.

[william.scherk]

We, the US are officially screwed...

Former President Carter guesses Egypt's Mubarak 'will have to leave'

Okay, you the US are officially screwed, so you say. Care to elaborate on that point?

I ask because you earlier had laid out the correct US policy for Egypt:

1) the U.S.should support all freedom movements, covertly and overtly where ever they exist;

2) the U.S. should finance them;

3) the U.S. should also utilize extremely aggressive intelligence resources to eliminate oppressive dictatorships where ever they exist and whether they are monarchial, fascist, communist, theological, etc.

4) here is the tricky part, it should be done with the least use of military power.