An Explanation from a "Cultist"

[sjw]

Part of Rand's job description was "moral philosopher", so judging her own morality is relevant.

Laure,

You and I are strangers, so I won't ask too much. Miss Rand was a speculative philosopher, big achievements in metaphysics and epistemology IMO, a breakthrough concept in psychology ("second-handers") and a moral principle ("Evil requires the sanction of the victim"). Beyond that, I'm not certain that her body of work added or subtracted anything to the wider questions of moral philosophy. She was a novelist and dramatist, an artist above all.

W.

I don't agree. Her moral philosophy is revolutionary. I believe her when she said she was both a novelist and a philosopher.

On the other hand, I for the life of me don't know why a fan of her philosophy would say that in order for her philosophy to be regarded as true, then she must have had to practice it consistently. This is *again* the cultist attitude, and Valliant himself has specifically promoted it. (I recognize that Valliant and Laure didn't put it exactly that way, but that is in effect how they put it).

Shayne

[Laure]

Wolf, I think one of her most important philosophical insights was the idea that altruism as a moral imperative leads to horrors when applied to political systems. I did say "part of Rand's job description" - I, too, think of her as "a novelist and dramatist, an artist above all".

[Laure]

...

On the other hand, I for the life of me don't know why a fan of her philosophy would say that in order for her philosophy to be regarded as true, then she must have had to practice it consistently. ...

Shayne, I think I can meet you halfway on this. I don't think that the idea that Rand made mistakes invalidates her philosophy. On the other hand, one of her ideas was that a rational morality shouldn't be too hard for ordinary people to follow. I seem to think in analogies a lot, so here's another one. What would you think of an obese diet doctor? It could be that the diet he's promoting is healthy, but he just doesn't follow it, but if one of his points is that his diet is easy for ordinary people to follow, wouldn't his obesity lead one to doubt his diet theory? (I don't think Rand was "morally obese" , but maybe she was spotted going off her diet occasionally!)

[Wolf DeVoon]

Wolf, I think one of her most important philosophical insights was the idea that altruism as a moral imperative leads to horrors when applied to political systems. I did say "part of Rand's job description" - I, too, think of her as "a novelist and dramatist, an artist above all".

Thanks. You gave me something to think about, whether altruism actuated Wynand or Stadler.

W.

[sjw]

...

On the other hand, I for the life of me don't know why a fan of her philosophy would say that in order for her philosophy to be regarded as true, then she must have had to practice it consistently. ...

Shayne, I think I can meet you halfway on this. I don't think that the idea that Rand made mistakes invalidates her philosophy. On the other hand, one of her ideas was that a rational morality shouldn't be too hard for ordinary people to follow. I seem to think in analogies a lot, so here's another one. What would you think of an obese diet doctor? It could be that the diet he's promoting is healthy, but he just doesn't follow it, but if one of his points is that his diet is easy for ordinary people to follow, wouldn't his obesity lead one to doubt his diet theory? (I don't think Rand was "morally obese" , but maybe she was spotted going off her diet occasionally!)

Judging Ayn Rand requires only that one read her works. Atlas Shrugged is a testament to her rationality, productivity, pride, integrity, honesty--she was a giant. Any mistakes she made in her relationships are so small in comparison as to be irrelevant when judging her overall. Yet Valliant thinks they are relevant.

Edit: And that explains why Valliant is in such a huff about the Brandens. He is under the false assumption that their story somehow diminishes Rand. Nothing can diminish her in the face of all she accomplished. That he doesn't grasp that reveals--I'll be "civil"--a lot.

Shayne

Edited January 24, 2008 by sjw

[Laure]

Judging Ayn Rand requires only that one read her works. Atlas Shrugged is a testament to her rationality, productivity, pride, integrity, honesty--she was a giant. Any mistakes she made in her relationships are so small in comparison as to be irrelevant when judging her overall.

I agree!

Yet Valliant thinks they are relevant.

Not sure.

Edit: And that explains why Valliant is in such a huff about the Brandens. He is under the false assumption that their story somehow diminishes Rand. Nothing can diminish her in the face of all she accomplished. That he doesn't grasp that reveals--I'll be "civil"--a lot.

Interesting.

Shayne, I think our positions are really not all that different.

[Ellen Stuttle]

I was playing on Yahoo Answers the other night (mostly answering math questions 'cuz it's fun) and did a search on "Ayn" to see what's being said out there. Found one answer which got voted "best answer" that gave some biographical info on Rand, and also mentioned that it was just a shame that she became addicted to crack cocaine in her later years. Gaaahhh!!!! The "asker" replied with something along the lines of, "thanks for the answer, yeah too bad about the crack addiction, so sad about that..." Did a big long game of "telephone", starting with Rand's diet pills, end up this way? Stuff like that makes me wonder about how we treat other historical figures. Did Beethoven really have syphillis, or is that just something that someone made up?!?

"Gaaahhh!!!" indeed. Re the long game of "telephone": yes, apparently a game which started amongst West Coast O'ists, possibly started by Roy Childs, though he didn't say "crack cocaine" but that she was a speed freak (in his last interview, conducted by Jeff Walker; he'd been telling the story long before that, but I don't know if he originated it).

I think the idea that Beethoven had syphillis has been disconfirmed. Where it came from is a guy whose name I forget who proposed a "syphillis theory of history" -- i.e., that just about every great figure had syphillis. I read his book on Beethoven when I was researching Beethoven biographies for a paper I wrote (circa 1967). It's one of those things with elaborate reasoning supporting a presupposition, kind of fascinating in a horrific way but where was the evidence? (Now you have me curious as to what became of the theory.)

Btw, I, too, disliked the movie of Passion -- especially the turning of Patricia into someone not at all like her, but because of numerous other reasons as well (though I was impressed by Helen Mirren's performance, but then I always am impressed by Helen Mirren's acting).

Ellen

___

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Laure,

Franz Schubert was the famous classical composer who had syphilis. Laypeople always mix up the classics on trivia questions.

I'm the loud-mouthed Objectivist who was a crack addict. I'm not saying that this was how it got attributed to Rand at that distance, but it makes sense according to how the gossip grapevine works. Nasty Rand-basher reads my stuff because he reads Rand-related stuff, then comments elsewhere in a cryptic manner, another runs with it, etc., until it balloons up into the ridiculous. Crack wasn't even invented when Rand was alive. Anyway, Rand thought drug addicts were morally depraved and wrote that way.

Michael

[Ellen Stuttle]

Laure,

Franz Schubert was the famous classical composer who had syphilis. Laypeople always mix up the classics on trivia questions.

Yes, but the theory was proposed -- and in a whole book -- that so did Beethoven. I read the book, though I don't remember the author's name off hand. And the subject has been debated amongst musicologists, and I think actually researched...

I'll check later; gotta scoot now.

Ellen

___

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ellen,

Dayaamm! I have conducted and performed many works by Beethoven and, of course, read a couple of biographies. (I even used to own a complete set of Groves.) I must have been in never-never land because I do not recall reading about that theory.

I just checked on Google and there it is in all its glory, although the lack of mercury (the medicine of the times for syphilis) in a lock of his hair is the main point used to discredit that notion.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

1/3 of the untreated cases of syphilis end up as fatal tertiary syphilis many years after the first infection. The other two-thirds are naturally "cured."

--Brant

[Robert Campbell]

Laure,

I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation of Jim Valliant's book.

I don't think James Valliant thinks Ayn Rand was perfect. I am on his side in challenging the idea that "moral perfection" is even a valid concept or way of looking at things.

First, Ayn Rand advanced her own conception of moral perfection (e.g., in "The Objectivist Ethics") and claimed elsewhere to exemplify it (e.g., "And I mean it!" in "About the author" at the end of Atlas Shrugged). During the Q&A at the end of her 1971 Ford Hall Forum speech, she ripped some campus Objectivists for telling a questioner that Objectivism doesn't require anyone to be a saint. On the contrary, she said, Objectivism calls for moral perfection from everyone. During a Q&A at the end of one of Leonard Peikoff's 1976 lectures, she rejected the idea of perfect knowledge while upholding the notion of moral perfection.

Second, Mr. Valliant knows about all of this. He has even, on one occasion, claimed Randian moral perfection for Casey Fahy.

Third, Mr. Valliant refuses to accept any evidence of a "moral breach" committed by Ayn Rand. In his book, he rejects all claims about flaws in Rand's moral character as stemming from the the malevolently distorted minds of "the Brandens." In internet discussions of his book, he has consistently rejected all proffered evidence from other sources, including her published works. For instance, he denies that Ayn Rand told any half-truths in "To Whom It May Concern," or that she lied about the significance of her editorial changes to We the Living.

It's true that Mr. Valliant denies once in his book that he regards Ayn Rand as morally perfect. But I could equally well proclaim, "Mr. Valliant is an eminent scholar and a gentleman, and none of the criticisms that I am about to present should in any way be taken to detract from the high regard in which I continue to hold him." If I followed that statement with 300+ pages of ripping Mr. Valliant's scholarship, refuting his arguments, impugning his debating tactics, and challenging his sincerity, you would not take my disclaimer seriously. You would conclude that it was either heavily ironic, or smarmily insincere.

Mr. Valliant also claims that his critics are applying Christian or other alien standards of moral perfection. On the contrary, I and others have consistently applied Ayn Rand's own stated criteria--some of which are quite harsh--and shown how she sometimes fell short of them. For instance, by Rand's standards, her notion of "psychologizing" is an "anti-concept" and putting it forward in print makes her morally culpable (because "anti-concepts" are always deliberately hatched and circulated). A more charitable interpretation would have it that Ms. Rand was confused about the issues involved, not that she was trying to put anything over on anyone. But you will not find Mr. Valliant suggesting that her notion of "psychologizing" was a product of confusion... Instead, he insists that there was nothing wrong with it (and, from his perspective, there apparently couldn't have been anything wrong with it, because it was part of Objectivism, and it was put forward by Ayn Rand).

Robert Campbell

[studiodekadent]

Maybe I'm a freak, but reading Passion of Ayn Rand made me love and admire Rand more, not less.

I agree entirely.

When reading PAR, I felt so much utter sympathy for Ayn. My heart bled for her. I can understand her bitterness towards a world that loathed and scorned her. I share many similar feelings myself. When reading PAR, I honestly have not felt more sympathy, sadness and "a desire to save this person from pain and sufferring" towards anyone in a book since Louis de Pointe du Lac from the Vampire Chronicles. The fact Rand was not fictional only made these emotions worse... Its not pity I feel towards Rand's sufferring... pity is what you feel towards those that are pathetic and valueless... its precisely because Rand was not pathetic and valueless that I feel an immense wish to end her sufferring.

PAR made me feel significant emotional kinship with Rand. It gave me someone I admire more than any allegedly perfect saint or goddess type.

-Andrew

xNTP