Do we need to Rethink Immigration?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

William,

Incidentally, where do you get your word cloud gifs?

If you are interested in this kind of lexical analysis of texts, there is a book that analyzes NYT bestsellers using algorithms based on this technology: The Bestseller Code: Anatomy of the Blockbuster Novel by Jodie Archer and Matthew L. Jockers.

The data and conclusions are very interesting. Oddly enough, the book is not very well written. In addition to a bland style with very few prompts for reader mental engagement, it meanders all over the place.

Still, it's worth it. I read it through once and am now on a second, much slower, reading.

Michael

[RobinReborn]

1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

How primitive?

--Brant

 

I don't know exactly how to measure primitiveness but the Spanish did destroy lots of culture.  Disease wiped out a large percentage of Natives.  Ultimately I do not think there's much evidence that Europeans were much more civilized than Native Americans before Columbus.  Europeans became more civilized after the conquest of the Americas, but they were pretty savage before it.  I also believe that Native Americans were less destructive towards the land than Europeans (Europeans cut down a lot of trees to build ships to come to the Americas, then they fought each other and sunk lots of these ships so they had to cut down more trees in the America to build more ships... pretty destructive!)

[BaalChatzaf]

33 minutes ago, RobinReborn said:

 

I don't know exactly how to measure primitiveness but the Spanish did destroy lots of culture.  Disease wiped out a large percentage of Natives.  Ultimately I do not think there's much evidence that Europeans were much more civilized than Native Americans before Columbus.  Europeans became more civilized after the conquest of the Americas, but they were pretty savage before it.  I also believe that Native Americans were less destructive towards the land than Europeans (Europeans cut down a lot of trees to build ships to come to the Americas, then they fought each other and sunk lots of these ships so they had to cut down more trees in the America to build more ships... pretty destructive!)

The Aztecs had running water,  flush toilets and took baths.  They were will in advance of the Spanish.  But the Spanish had guns, germs and steel  So they won.

[Brant Gaede]

16 minutes ago, BaalChatzaf said:

The Aztecs had running water,  flush toilets and took baths.  They were will in advance of the Spanish.  But the Spanish had guns, germs and steel  So they won.

They had allies in native tribes tired of being under the Aztec heel.

--Brant

[RobinReborn]

2 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

However, you were discussing war. I don't recall a war with Iran where we beat them like we did with England, Germany, Japan, etc.

 

 

We didn't exactly beat England, we never sent troops their to conquer them.  My point applies to war but it also applies to many of the aggressive violent actions that the US (generally through the CIA) has done since the end of WWII

 

As for your point about refugees, I'd encourage you to distinguish the USA and Europe more.  The US is further from Syria than Europe, so less refugees would come to the US and the ones that did come would have more money because they could afford a plane ticket.  The US also has less of a social welfare system than most European countries so there'd be less refugees just looking to cash in on welfare benefits.  And as I said earlier, Europe has a longer history of conflict with Islam than the US does.

 

I do think there is value in Europe, I'd certainly rather live there than in an Islamic country.  But I don't think it's worth it for the US to stick it's neck out for Europe, especially since the Brexit vote.  Europe is the intellectual center and prime exporter of both fascism and socialism and I believe those are bigger threats to the US than radical islam.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, RobinReborn said:

 The US is further from Syria than Europe, so less refugees would come to the US and the ones that did come would have more money because they could afford a plane ticket.

RR,

So what?

We get Mexicans. They don't need plane tickets. They don't even need a donkey. Each one has two feet. There are probably about 20 million illegal Mexicans in the US so far (out of about 30 million illegal aliens). Nobody knows the true number, but that seems to be a popular consensus among people I respect.

The drug wars and corrupt Mexican government ensure this high number of people seeking to get out of Mexico.

My remarks about the refugee scam apply in spades to this reality.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

1 hour ago, Brant Gaede said:

They had allies in native tribes tired of being under the Aztec heel.

--Brant

Ultimately it was germ warfare the fully defeated the Aztecs.  They had no partial immunity against the pox.

[Brant Gaede]

deleted

[william.scherk]

15 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

William,

Incidentally, where do you get your word cloud gifs?

Word Clouds. Gifs.

[anthony]

Progressivism is borderless, initiated and driven by The Net, in it there is no distinction of nations and distances. It's the globe progressivists want.

[william.scherk]

5 minutes ago, anthony said:

The Net

What Net?

[anthony]

This thingie, the internet, websites, social media.

[RobinReborn]

17 hours ago, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

RR,

So what?

We get Mexicans. They don't need plane tickets. They don't even need a donkey. Each one has two feet. There are probably about 20 million illegal Mexicans in the US so far (out of about 30 million illegal aliens). Nobody knows the true number, but that seems to be a popular consensus among people I respect.

The drug wars and corrupt Mexican government ensure this high number of people seeking to get out of Mexico.

My remarks about the refugee scam apply in spades to this reality.

Michael

 

I believe that Mexico isn't nearly as bad as most conservatives think.  A lot of the problems with Mexico are directly related to the drug war, end the drug war and you end a lot of violence because selling drugs is the only pathway to wealth in the minds of many poor Mexicans (same is true of some Americans).

 

I'm not sure what problems you anticipate these Mexicans creating when they get here, I'm not aware of any terrorist acts by Mexicans.  The states in the US with large numbers of Mexican immigrants all have good economies (especially California and Texas).  I lived in California for a while and a source of cheap labor for cleaning, gardening and cooking definitely improves the economy.  I met some Mexicans who were involved in more skilled labor as well, one was a computer programmer who got deported.

 

I do not believe in completely open borders, but I think the borders should be more open then they are now.  I believe we aren't allowing enough Mexican immigrants in right now, the line for legal admission is too long so people are breaking the law and entering illegally (just like people do drugs illegally even though there are frequently legal alternatives).  This article supports my point:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/18/immigrants-applying-to-enter-us-legally-facing-longer-waits.html

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, RobinReborn said:

I'm not sure what problems you anticipate these Mexicans creating when they get here...

RR,

Why would I anticipate something I put in the present and past tense?

Anticipate is for the future.

Anyway, you missed my point. I have no problem whatsoever with legal Mexican immigrants. They are not part of the institution-destroying plans of the elitists I was talking about. I agree with you that the legal system needs fixing so it works without all those long lines and delays, which, thankfully Trump will do once he is sworn in.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

1 hour ago, RobinReborn said:

... I'm not aware of any terrorist acts by Mexicans.

RR,

Nothing at all by Mexican drug cartels?

Really?

Hmmmm...

Michael

 

[RobinReborn]

How do you expect the legal system to change?  Immigration is a controversial issue like abortion, politicians usually stay away from it.  The borders between the US and Mexico were changed in the Mexican American War (I am not an expert on that War, but I do not believe it was just though I acknowledge it was one of the few wars in US history which was actually declared by congress).  Mexican students are told where the borders used to be and they generally stay within the old borders.

 

Do you have a problem with people who consume illegal drugs?  How do you expect illegal drugs to be made legal unless people consume them?

 

As for the Mexican Drug Cartels, I must admit I'm almost completely ignorant of the details of their violence (I watched Breaking Bad...)  However I place the responsibility of that violence mainly on the US government, specifically the DEA and other organizations involved with suppressing the free trade of substances most people can consume responsibly.  Those people are enemies of capitalism.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

20 minutes ago, RobinReborn said:

How do you expect the legal system to change?

RR,

Really?

Come on...

See here.

 

Actually, you could start here, but do your own reading. We've only been discussing this stuff for the last year and a half on the Trump thread.

Michael

[RobinReborn]

I believe the most effective way to change the legal system is through nonviolent civil disobedience.  This is what Mexicans are doing, it's also what Americans who hire Mexicans are doing.

 

I haven't followed that Trump thread that I started and I do not trust politicians to keep their campaign promises.  Especially not Trump.  Partly because of his flip-flops from his past and partly because I expect he will face lots of resistance.

[Wolf DeVoon]

1 hour ago, RobinReborn said:

I believe the most effective way to change the legal system is through nonviolent civil disobedience.

Okay, I understand you think people sneaking over the border and overstaying visas is law-breaking, but I don't get how crime "changes the legal system." I'm pretty sure that murder and felonious assault are still illegal in Chicago, despite 4000 shootings this year. If it was doubled to 8000 or tripled to 12000 shootings a year, do you suppose murder would suddenly be legal? or trial by jury be suspended? or what?

[RobinReborn]

What does immigration have to do with murder in Chicago?

 

Immigration is not the initiation of force.  As Rand said, the initiation of force is immoral.  

 

In some cases, these murders may a form of retaliation, if the justice system can't adequately deal with the murder problem in Chicago the city may enter a feedback loop of increasing murders where nobody trusts the police and murder is de facto legal.

[Wolf DeVoon]

The connection with murder in Chicago is Mexican gangs fighting Black gangs for turf. But I think I see where you're coming from. Government initiates force, so let's play it deuces wild. "Hands up don't shoot" (the phony Ferguson MO chant) is a get out of jail free card, property rights be damned.

[RobinReborn]

Not sure I follow you.

 

I believe most gang conflicts would end if the drug war ended, you might need to end the war on prostitution and the war on gambling as well...  Obviously racist cops don't help alleviate the racial tensions between Blacks and Mexicans...

 

My views on the Black Lives Matter movement are nuanced.  I think the important thing to keep in mind about Ferguson is that it's a mainly black area, the police are mainly white, it's a poor area and the police are very incompetent and abusive and are largely funded through BS parking-ticket type violations that most residents can't afford.  The police there are much worse than the police in most other parts of the USA.

[Wolf DeVoon]

On 11/29/2016 at 4:39 PM, RobinReborn said:

Not sure I follow you.

 

I believe most gang conflicts would end if the drug war ended, you might need to end the war on prostitution and the war on gambling as well...  Obviously racist cops don't help alleviate the racial tensions between Blacks and Mexicans...

 

My views on the Black Lives Matter movement are nuanced.  I think the important thing to keep in mind about Ferguson is that it's a mainly black area, the police are mainly white, it's a poor area and the police are very incompetent and abusive and are largely funded through BS parking-ticket type violations that most residents can't afford.  The police there are much worse than the police in most other parts of the USA.

A forum post tends to focus ideas, and yours seems to be the slander of "incompetent, abusive, racist white cops" -- the ravings of a fool.

[Mark]

Unfortunately Rand published nothing on immigration.  In her posthumously published letters you can read about her effort to expedite the immigration of a former teacher.  For what it's worth, she goes along with all the rules and regulations, never complaining about them.  Eventually the woman was allowed in.

"Ayn Rand on Immigration" examines the Q&A Michael quoted except it uses the tape recording instead of relying on Mayhew's paraphrase.  As an aside, footnote 14 analyses Rand's reaction to the Hickman murder.

 

[RobinReborn]

23 hours ago, wolfdevoon said:

A forum post tends to focus ideas, and yours seems to be the slander of "incompetent, abusive, racist white cops" -- the ravings of a fool.

 

???  There is no slander, there's plenty of evidence that there's systemic racism within the police, your ignorance of that does not make me foolish.

 

Do you actually know the definition of the word slander?  I'd suggest you mean libel but if your views on who is the victim in the conflict between African Americans and the police are any indication of your views on reality, you have a tendency to distort the meanings of concepts.