I did not expect this!

[moralist]

Then we should all cheer for those with "European liberal socialist values" to get elected in 2014 and 2016.

It's not a matter of cheering, Frank...

European liberal socialists can only get elected when there is exists a political majority who live by the same values they live by.

Government is created from the bottom up not the top down. You'll never understand this principle because of how you live. If you lived differently, you would discover that each person's experience of government is self-inflicted. And each person's individual experience of getting the government they deserve depends upon how they live their life. My own personal experience of government is completely different from that of the European liberal socialists, because I don't live by their values. And so the government I get is different from the government they get.

For a Congress and President who delivered anything other than that could hardly give justice to the half of the country that "is cashing government benefits checks."

They can't "deliver anything other than that" when the benefits check cashers put them into power in the first place. See? You really are totally clueless as to who created the government.

Even if we don't contribute to her campaign, we should all feel a deep sense of injustice if Hillary were defeated by, say, Rand Paul.

Can you offer an explanation of why you use the queenly liberal "we"? Have you ever wondered about the need to pretend to speak for an imaginary group? In my opinion it's shameful to lack the backbone simply to speak for yourself without needing to fantasize that there's a collective behind you propping you up. That's how liberals behave. They can't function without using groupspeak.

If would be as bad as Katrina missing New Orleans or someone finding a cure for AIDS.

Hurricanes are amoral.

AIDS is behavioral.

Greg

[Francisco Ferrer]

Then we should all cheer for those with "European liberal socialist values" to get elected in 2014 and 2016.

It's not a matter of cheering, Frank...

European liberal socialists can only get elected when there is exists a political majority who live by the same values they live by.

Government is created from the bottom up not the top down. You'll never understand this principle because of how you live. If you lived differently, you would discover that each person's experience of government is self-inflicted. And each person's individual experience of getting the government they deserve depends upon how they live their life. My own personal experience of government is completely different from that of the European liberal socialists, because I don't live by their values. And so the government I get is different from the government they get.

Why shouldn't you and I cheer when people get what's coming to them and boo when they are deprived of what they deserve? Cheering is the act of celebrating justice!

The difference between European liberal socialist values and American capitalist values is that in Europe the values are evil, decent people are never hurt and bad people get exactly what they deserve. Whereas in America the values are good, decent people are never hurt and bad people get exactly what they deserve.

Anyone who lives his life the proper way can see this obvious difference.

Quote

Even if we don't contribute to her campaign, we should all feel a deep sense of injustice if Hillary were defeated by, say, Rand Paul.

Can you offer an explanation of why you use the queenly liberal "we"? Have you ever wondered about the need to pretend to speak for an imaginary group? In my opinion it's shameful to lack the backbone simply to speak for yourself without needing to fantasize that there's a collective behind you propping you up. That's how liberals behave. They can't function without using groupspeak.

I said "we" because I thought that you and I agreed that people were getting justice under Obama and that you and I (that is, we) would want them to continue to get justice by having another European liberal socialist in the White House to dish it out. I suppose it's possible that you've now changed your mind and no longer care much for the idea of another Obama giving America's welfare constituents what they've been clamoring for.

That's okay. No one says you have to believe that same thing in the evening that you believed in the morning. Maybe it's time to give the people what they don't deserve. Just for variety's sake.

Quote

If would be as bad as Katrina missing New Orleans or someone finding a cure for AIDS.

Hurricanes are amoral.

AIDS is behavioral.

Greg

I see. So if Katrina hits you in the head with a telephone pole, you may or may not deserve it. But if the President reduces the economy to a shambles, plunges the nation into a depression, makes hiring employees more costly and thus makes it impossible for Citizen A to earn a dollar or pay his rent, Citizen A deserves every bloody inch of it.

Decent people may suffer in a hurricane, but no government, no matter how evil, dare lay a hand on a good man. Just ask the Jews that survived the Holocaust.

[Mikee]

Greg,

I think you have erred in ascribing evil to simple error. We have a representative democracy. There is a market for government officials, elected and otherwise. I believe in markets. The net result of operating markets is good products due to the net basically correct decisions of a majority of individuals. This works well, except in the case of fraud. Our election system is flawed, politicians get away with lying their asses off, misrepresenting themselves and issues and thereby disenfranchising every voter. If these self serving lying sacks of shit that comprise 99% of our government were made to account for their lies and thrown out of government the US wouldn't be in a state of free fall. I've suggested that perhaps our constitution could be amended to include the right of citizens to impeach their representatives and government officials for lying by bringing them to court for perjury charges when appropriate but haven't gotten traction for this idea. I think because the idea of an honest politician is considered ludicrous. Which is the problem. Rampant cynicism.

[moralist]

I said "we" because I thought that you and I agreed...

You're not being honest, Frank...

Quoting your own words:

...we should all feel a deep sense of injustice..."

"we all" is not just two people. It's groupspeak Nice try though.

I see. So if Katrina hits you in the head with a telephone pole, you may or may not deserve it. But if the President reduces the economy to a shambles, plunges the nation into a depression, makes hiring employees more costly and thus makes it impossible for Citizen A to earn a dollar or pay his rent, Citizen A deserves every bloody inch of it.

Yes.

Regardless of what the President does... if you can't properly order your own life it's your own damn fault. Because I live by different values than you do, I was totally unaffected by the debt collapse of 2008 and its aftermath. As an American Capitalist producer, I operate solely on a 100% solvent basis. With no debt exposure I just keep on doing business as usual because I deal with other Capitalists like myself who are also unaffected financially. The situation from which you get your attitude of blaming the government is obvious:

You've been operating in the wrong economy...

...and that's your own failure for living in such a manner so as to make your financial situation vulnerable to what the government does. So when "Obama reduces the economy to shambles" you go down in flames right along with it just as you fully deserve.

It's clear that each of us has a totally opposite view on this topic because each of us lives by a different set of values:

Your view: The government is to blame for your own financial situation.

My view: I am completely responsible for my own financial situation.

Again... this topic has come to its end. There is nothing more to discuss as each of us has already stated their own view.

Greg

[Jules Troy]

My ex was trying to suck me into that government grid of helpless servitude at one time. Child support for 2 kids(and one that is) that were not mine(yea they do that up in Canada..). On top of it I was getting screwed around in other ways like visitation etc.

So? I went off the grid completely for a year and did just finnnnnnnne. I called her a year later and said to her " Are we going to have issues again or would you prefer I carry on..." Problem solved.

Sometimes you have to just stand your ground and let the chips fall were they may and forcibly extricate yourself from the government nightmare . There is always a way, even if it is difficult. Incidentally I have custody now.

PS: Being in debt is a really bad idea. Being liquid is the only way to be free andddd sleep at night!

PPS: Even if you live in a shithole like Iran or North Korea you DO get the government you deserve. The only way those people are ever going to be free is if they kill their way out of it and have their own enlightenment.

I look at it like this. Many people that win the lotto are flat assed broke again in a very short period of time. Why? Because they do not know the value of money. They did not build up from scratch a business and are not equipped to deal with it. They make bad choices and end up where they started.

We could go into a country and pound the crap out of it and liberate the people. However because they themselves did not EARN their freedom often times another dictator just slides on in because the people did not understand what freedom is or how to keep it nor do they deserve it until such time as they seize it for themselves.

13 years the USA, Canada and other forces were in Afghanistan. Yay go Canada we even built roads bridges and schools for the little savages. Yea the people there are so much better off because of it. Within 2 more years it will be as if we were never there. What did we get out of it? PTSD and a lot more debt.

[Francisco Ferrer]

I said "we" because I thought that you and I agreed...

You're not being honest, Frank...

Quoting your own words:

...we should all feel a deep sense of injustice..."

"we all" is not just two people. It's groupspeak Nice try though.

But I cannot think of a reason why all people should not feel a sense of injustice if American citizens do not get what they deserve. Can you?

Earlier you had said that giving people what they deserve (Obama as president) is a form of justice (Post #24). If you are now saying that you would not feel a sense of injustice if the American public did not get another "European liberal socialist" to follow Obama, having the current socialist in the White House may not be so just either.

I see. So if Katrina hits you in the head with a telephone pole, you may or may not deserve it. But if the President reduces the economy to a shambles, plunges the nation into a depression, makes hiring employees more costly and thus makes it impossible for Citizen A to earn a dollar or pay his rent, Citizen A deserves every bloody inch of it.

Yes.

Regardless of what the President does... if you can't properly order your own life it's your own damn fault. Because I live by different values than you do, I was totally unaffected by the debt collapse of 2008 and its aftermath. As an American Capitalist producer, I operate solely on a 100% solvent basis. With no debt exposure I just keep on doing business as usual because I deal with other Capitalists like myself who are also unaffected financially. The situation from which you get your attitude of blaming the government is obvious:

You've been operating in the wrong economy...

...and that's your own failure for living in such a manner so as to make your financial situation vulnerable to what the government does. So when "Obama reduces the economy to shambles" you go down in flames right along with it just as you fully deserve.

It's clear that each of us has a totally opposite view on this topic because each of us lives by a different set of values:

Your view: The government is to blame for your own financial situation.

My view: I am completely responsible for my own financial situation.

Again... this topic has come to its end. There is nothing more to discuss as each of us has already stated their own view.

Greg

In reviewing how European socialists took over the government of Russia in 1917, you and I can say that the people who had their businesses and homes nationalized (like Ayn Rand's family) were themselves at fault. People who lived by different values than Zinovy Zakharovich Rosenbaum and his wife, Anna Borisovna, were totally unaffected by what the Soviets did to the nation's laws and economy. We--I mean you and I--can say the Rosenbaums just happened to be in the wrong economy. The government treats us--I mean you and me--as decent as we are.

In the case of Jews in 1930's Germany who saw their homes and places of business vandalized or expropriated, you and I can say that it was their own damn failure for living in such a manner so as to make their financial situation vulnerable to what the government does. For example, instead of operating from a storefront visible to the whole world, a kosher meat retailer could have stuffed his inventory under his overcoat and sold brisket to people sitting on park benches. Doctors could have performed operations in alleys at night. Etc.

They had a choice. They got what they deserved. Government is the provider of justice on earth.

These matters are obvious to anyone who lives by the proper set of values. If you put your house in order, you don't get hit by hurricanes or get born to a mother with AIDS.

[Brant Gaede]

It strikes me that in Greg's world you're a fool if you are a hero for others respecting freedom--your only job is to be a hero for yourself (and loved ones?).

Objectivists and such eat at a table made from both tables, battling villians for being villians, which hardly explains John Galtian strike-ian confusion.

And there is a word that never appears in Atlas Shrugged, "Israel," that does appear in Rand's non-fiction if only grudgingly, and less grudgingly from Objectivists since she died, making one wonder if the forces of evil finally have shown up--found--Galt's Gulch and her heroes about to get what Greg might call their "just desserts"?

If you live in a world of destructive chaos with looters looting and killing all over the place you, alone, in your well fortified retreat-from-that-world home will not last very long.

First you need a big family with lots of boys and girls with guns so you can sleep. Working with neighbors can be a great help. So too an effective if only reactive local police force to say nothing of county mounties and state police. Then the Feds kick in to keep the bad boys out of the country so Americans can live and love in peace and productive harmony. All of which why it is valuable to have freedom fighters fighting for freedom on the scale possible for them or at least have people coming with moral support backing them up in their battles.

Greg scoffs? Greg shrugs?

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

First you need a big family with lots of boys and girls with guns so you can sleep. Working with neighbors can be a great help. So too an effective if only reactive local police force to say nothing of county mounties and state police. Then the Feds kick in to keep the bad boys out of the country so Americans can live and love in peace and productive harmony. All of which why it is valuable to have freedom fighters fighting for freedom on the scale possible for them or at least have people coming with moral support backing them up in their battles.

Greg scoffs? Greg shrugs?

--Brant

Even in Anarchy City there will be the moral equivalent of a militia or posse to keep the peace, particularly to deal with pesky hostile Outsiders. For internal order the Shire Reeve or a constable for taking drunk anarchists to jail to sleep it off will take care of most internal disorder.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[anthony]

For internal order the Shire Reeve or a constable for taking drunk anarchists to jail to sleep it off will take care of most internal disorder.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Whence, "Sheriff"? Ta, new one on me.

[moralist]

But I cannot think of a reason...

The discussion is over, Frank.

You blame the President for your own personal financial situation... and I don't for mine.

After each view has been made clear there's nothing else to say.

Greg

[moralist]

It strikes me that in Greg's world you're a fool if you are a hero for others respecting freedom--your only job is to be a hero for yourself (and loved ones?).

Brant, your definition of "loved ones" is far more narrow than mine. I love everyone... and this is because I define love as doing what's morally right.

Objectivists and such eat at a table made from both tables, battling villians for being villians,

The only real villain is in ourselves. Overcome that one, and the outside world graciously acquiesces to your will, because you cease to compulsively react to its stress, and instead respond to your own good common sense.

If you live in a world of destructive chaos with looters looting and killing all over the place you, alone, in your well fortified retreat-from-that-world home will not last very long.

But that is not the only world. The real world is good people who live by the same moral values. I chose to live in that one. The other world goes down in flames just as it should.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

It strikes me that in Greg's world you're a fool if you are a hero for others respecting freedom--your only job is to be a hero for yourself (and loved ones?).

Brant, your definition of "loved ones" is far more narrow than mine. I love everyone... and this is because I define love as doing what's morally right.

Objectivists and such eat at a table made from both tables, battling villians for being villians,

The only real villain is in ourselves. Overcome that one, and the outside world graciously acquiesces to your will, because you cease to compulsively react to its stress, and instead respond to your own good common sense.

If you live in a world of destructive chaos with looters looting and killing all over the place you, alone, in your well fortified retreat-from-that-world home will not last very long.

But that is not the only world. The real world is good people who live by the same moral values. I chose to live in that one. The other world goes down in flames just as it should.

Greg

There's a lot of naviette in your remarks, the worst being the implicit idea your moral values will trump others' political force or the force of very bad people come to kill, rape and loot you and yours. While you might bag a few of the bastards first, you won't prevail in the long run. While they will eventually turn on each other it will only be because people like you have been used up. The very good general environment you now have was 80 percent born into. You were not born in the South Sudan.

--Brant

I note that by dealing with what I say by referencing bits and pieces, your generalizations tend to mismatch mine, which I consider use and abuse

[moralist]

There's a lot of naviette in your remarks, the worst being the implicit idea your moral values will trump others' political force or the force of very bad people come to kill, rape and loot you and yours.

Sorry, Brant... but in America, morality does trump political force because this exceptional nation was founded in an exceptional way by exceptional people who understood God's moral law.

I note that by dealing with what I say by referencing bits and pieces, your generalizations tend to mismatch mine, which I consider use and abuse.

My view mismatches yours because it's different from yours. And I choose to respond only to what you say for which I have a response...

...and like thoughts, I just let the rest go by unresponded.

I learned by observing my own mind that even though every thought passing through my head might demand that I act on it... I am nevertheless perfectly free to choose not to.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

There's a lot of naviette in your remarks, the worst being the implicit idea your moral values will trump others' political force or the force of very bad people come to kill, rape and loot you and yours.

Sorry, Brant... but in America, morality does trump political force because this exceptional nation was founded in an exceptional way by exceptional people who understood God's moral law.

I note that by dealing with what I say by referencing bits and pieces, your generalizations tend to mismatch mine, which I consider use and abuse.

My view mismatches yours because it's different from yours. And I choose to respond only to what you say for which I have a response...

...and like thoughts, I just let the rest go by unresponded.

I learned by observing my own mind that even though every thought passing through my head might demand that I act on it... I am nevertheless perfectly free to choose not to.

Greg

Like I said.

--Brant