BaalChatzaf Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Aka Platonism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....If Hitler had won WW2, you would have been made into soap.1. Do you consider that unethical?2. If yes, then by what physical properties of the universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought?--Brantno evil in the universe, not even on Earth?just noticed you accept in your question the existence of ethical and moral principles so there must be a connection and . . . ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought.--Brantno evil in the universe, not even on Earth?Clearly I disapprove of a Hitler win, but what does this have to do with physical law and physical fact? My approval/disapproval, my like/dislike are all subjective matters....Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....If Hitler had won WW2, you would have been made into soap.1. Do you consider that unethical?2. If yes, then by what physical properties of the universe?The principles leading to my approval/disapproval do not seem to flow from the physical nature of the cosmos. What does the speed of light have to do with right/wrong?Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....If Hitler had won WW2, you would have been made into soap.1. Do you consider that unethical?2. If yes, then by what physical properties of the universe?The principles leading to my approval/disapproval do not seem to flow from the physical nature of the cosmos. What does the speed of light have to do with right/wrong?Ba'al ChatzafWhen you go faster than the speed of light, that's wrong, wrong, wrong! --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought.--Brantno evil in the universe, not even on Earth?Clearly I disapprove of a Hitler win, but what does this have to do with physical law and physical fact? My approval/disapproval, my like/dislike are all subjective matters....Ba'al ChatzafNothing at all. You, Greg and Francisco are natural if queer allies. Objectively no evil or in two cases don't even talk about it.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 When you go faster than the speed of light, that's wrong, wrong, wrong! --BrantIf something could go faster that the speed of light, then the underlying physical theories are wrong in the sense of being mistaken or incorrect. Morality has nothing to do with it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 When you go faster than the speed of light, that's wrong, wrong, wrong! --BrantIf something could go faster that the speed of light, then the underlying physical theories are wrong in the sense of being mistaken or incorrect. Morality has nothing to do with it.....Glad I'm not a literalist.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....Let me guess: you don't know but want to find out; you don't know and know you won't find out; you don't know and know you can't find out; you know but want to find out if we do; you know right and you know wrong but you don't know how they are connected to the purely physical universe so it's all conflicting physical forces so it's "right" when your side wins and "wrong" when it loses so too from the perspective of the other guy--call him Hitler--he's right when he wins and wrong when he loses and morality is just an inconsequential thought.--Brantno evil in the universe, not even on Earth?Clearly I disapprove of a Hitler win, but what does this have to do with physical law and physical fact? My approval/disapproval, my like/dislike are all subjective matters....Ba'al ChatzafYour life or death are "subjective matters"? Existence--non-existence is subjective??If you don't value life there's nothing to be said, all morality is then redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 19, 2015 Author Share Posted March 19, 2015 Your life or death are "subjective matters"? Existence--non-existence is subjective??If you don't value life there's nothing to be said, all morality is then redundant.There are people who enjoy being alive and there are those who would rather not be alive. There is no physical law requiring one to prefer life over death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Your life or death are "subjective matters"? Existence--non-existence is subjective??If you don't value life there's nothing to be said, all morality is then redundant.There are people who enjoy being alive and there are those who would rather not be alive. There is no physical law requiring one to prefer life over death.That's true. Value is man made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George H. Smith Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....What are the physical properties of an idea? When we say that a person has "big ideas," do we mean that his ideas are fat or tall or weigh a lot? And what does a "false proposition" look like? How does it differ physically from a "true proposition"? When you get a chance, please provide a physical sketch of "error" and "falsehood" so I will know to avoid them when I see them on the street.Ghs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....What are the physical properties of an idea? When we say that a person has "big ideas," do we mean that his ideas are fat or tall or weigh a lot? And what does a "false proposition" look like? How does it differ physically from a "true proposition"? When you get a chance, please provide a physical sketch of "error" and "falsehood" so I will know to avoid them when I see them on the street.Ghs Neurons zapping each other..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jts Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Universally Preferable Behavior by Stefan Molyneux.Get the book.https://freedomainradio.com/free/#upbOr listen to the video. 5 hours, 46 minutes. 1:17 Forward10:19 Ground Rules17:02 A Modest Suggestion...19:07 Introduction22:21 The "Null Zone"26:44 The Casualties30:01 "Middle Truths"34:58 "Middle Truths" and Exploitation41:22 Effective Parasitism43:46 Part 1: Theory: A Framework for Ethics46:35 Objective Truth49:45 Truth and Objective Reality51:41 Accuracy and Consistency55:06 The Existence of "Truth"56:26 Empiricism verses Rationality57:52 Internal Consistency1:01:26 Ethics1:04:09 The Discipline of Theoretical Ethics1:08:48 Self-Defeating Arguments1:11:19 Preferences1:13:13 Preferences and Existence1:15:12 Preferences and Arguments1:16:13 Preferences and Universality1:18:42 Arguments and Universality1:26:11 Universally Preferable Behavior1:28:53 UPB and Validity1:37:35 UPB: Five Proofs1:59:12 UPB: Ethics or Aesthetics2:01:19 Irrationality2:02:04 Lying2:03:16 Murder2:03:33 Requirements for Ethics2:05:29 Choice2:07:06 Avoidance2:10:39 Ethics, Aesthetics and Avoidability2:14:04 Initiation2:16:30 The Non-Aggression Principle (NAP)2:19:52 Lifeboat Scenarios2:21:45 Gray Areas2:23:32 Shades of Gray2:25:24 Universality Exceptions2:27:58 The Purpose - and the Dangers2:29:22 The Beast2:32:49 Propaganda2:37:55 Part 2: Application: Ethical Categories2:38:29 The Seven Categories2:41:13 Virtue and it's Opposite2:42:39 What is Missing2:43:52 The First Test: Rape2:44:34 1. The Good2:48:17 The Coma Test2:50:41 Capacity2:51:55 2. Aesthetically Positive2:56:14 3. Personally Positive2:58:55 4. Morally Neutral2:59:09 5. Personally Negative3:00:02 6. Aesthetically Negative3:01:56 7. Evil3:05:09 Whew!3:06:36 The Second Test: Murder3:12:45 Self Defense?3:13:09 The Third Test: Theft3:36:05 The Fourth Test: Fraud3:41:20 The Fifth Test: Lying3:44:49 More Challenging Tests of UPB3:46:19 Self-Defense3:52:03 Child Raising4:00:25 "Don't Eat Fish"4:04:13 Animal Rights4:07:58 Part 3: Practice: The Value of UPB4:09:19 The "Null Zone" Revisited4:12:33 Bigotry4:15:23 Next Stop: the "Alternate Universe"4:18:54 Existence verses Non-Existence4:23:12 The "Alternate Universe" in Human Society4:24:33 UPB in Action4:27:43 Government4:31:11 Opinions and Reality4:33:25 Government as Voluntarism4:35:14 The Gun in the Room4:38:26 Policemen4:43:46 Practicality4:49:52 The Necessity of the State?5:03:42 Governments as Religion5:07:57 Taxation5:11:57 Government, Religion and UPB5:15:12 Religion and UPB5:16:46 UPB and "The Majority"5:18:57 Majority Rule5:20:18 Additional Proofs5:20:29 The Free-Market Economy5:21:47 The Scientific Method5:22:37 Public Education5:24:02 Parallels5:28:11 Solutions5:31:24 The Future5:33:08 Conclusions5:42:49 Appendix: UPB in a Nutshell5:44:20 Appendix: Moral Categories5:44:31 Appendix: Every UPB Debate I've Ever Had5:45:45 Closing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George H. Smith Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. The universe is physical from top to bottom and from beginning to end....What are the physical properties of an idea? When we say that a person has "big ideas," do we mean that his ideas are fat or tall or weigh a lot? And what does a "false proposition" look like? How does it differ physically from a "true proposition"? When you get a chance, please provide a physical sketch of "error" and "falsehood" so I will know to avoid them when I see them on the street.Ghs Neurons zapping each other.....Wow, I had no idea that your knowledge of neurophysiology was so profound. But as much as your insightful comment has clarified this matter, I remained puzzled. How does a "true" zapping differ from a "false" zapping? Ghs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Before neurons zap they gotta zip! There's no false zipping! All zipping is moral. People are thus fundamentally moral! (So are my cats.)--Brantmorality reduced to motility to basics!philosophy reduced to sessility!?!? Yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 Before neurons zap they gotta zip! There's no false zipping! All zipping is moral. People are thus fundamentally moral! (So are my cats.)--Brantmorality reduced to motility to basics!philosophy reduced to sessility!?!? Yeah!Thinking, feeling and comprehending are electrochemical processes from beginning to end. It is all done with sodium and potassium ions.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Before neurons zap they gotta zip! There's no false zipping! All zipping is moral. People are thus fundamentally moral! (So are my cats.)--Brantmorality reduced to motility to basics!philosophy reduced to sessility!?!? Yeah!Thinking, feeling and comprehending are electrochemical processes from beginning to end. It is all done with sodium and potassium ions.Ba'al ChatzafNow that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 Now that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?--BrantActually not. Quantum mechanics is not deterministic and I give much weight to quantum theory because it works... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Bob writes: How are ethical and moral principles connected to and grounded by the basic physical properties of the universe. They are not directly connected. Their only connection is through the actions of human beings. While ethics and morality pertain solely to to human behavior, the consequences of that behavior are subject to all of the physical laws. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted March 20, 2015 Share Posted March 20, 2015 Now that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?--BrantActually not. Quantum mechanics is not deterministic and I give much weight to quantum theory because it works...It's your contradiction you're not aware of. As for QM, your argument is with Albert Einstein.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 20, 2015 Author Share Posted March 20, 2015 Now that you've said the equivalent of "water is wet" for the umpteenth time, what is your answer to the simple question, "So what?" You are aware you're just another determinist, aren't you?--BrantActually not. Quantum mechanics is not deterministic and I give much weight to quantum theory because it works...It's your contradiction you're not aware of. As for QM, your argument is with Albert Einstein.--BrantEinstein was wrong. The Bell Inequalities have been verified experimentally. Quantum theory can account for them, hidden variables (a kind of classical theory) cannot. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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