I've read Shrugged 3x.

[RagJohn]

Ayn could easily have said the same thing in 1/4 as many pages. It REALLY drags, and that makes the reader miss some important points. Her non-fiction, by contrast,is much, much better, some of the very best writing ever put on paper or screen.

[Selene]

Ayn could easily have said the same thing in 1/4 as many pages. It REALLY drags, and that makes the reader miss some important points. Her non-fiction, by contrast,is much, much better, some of the very best writing ever put on paper or screen.

John:

So it really drags...

It should have been seventy-five percent [75%] shorter...

And you read it three times [3X]

Why did you read it three times then?

Adam

[RagJohn]

over about a 2 year period, I kept seeing Ayn refer to this and that having been "dealt with" in AS. I wouldn't remember it, so I'd read it again. Like I said, the good stuff mostly got lost in the "fluff", and her longdrawn out browbeating about a given subject. She'd get so obcessed about plugging all the little holes that the "smoke and mirrors" crowd MIGHT try to wriggle thru! Sheesh, I got it with the first sentence of the (page long) paragraph, you know? Give me a break, lady. There's no point trying to teach the willfully blind/ignorant. Those who really ARE trying don't require such clubbing into submission. I would NEVER subject myself to reading AS as just a novel. Like, enough already!

Edited December 25, 2010 by RagJohn

[Brant Gaede]

over about a 2 year period, I kept seeing Ayn refer to this and that having been "dealt with" in AS. I wouldn't remember it, so I'd read it again. Like I said, the good stuff mostly got lost in the "fluff", and her longdrawn out browbeating about a given subject. She'd get so obcessed about plugging all the little holes that the "smoke and mirrors" crowd MIGHT try to wriggle thru! Sheesh, I got it with the first sentence of the (page long) paragraph, you know? Give me a break, lady. There's no point trying to teach the willfully blind/ignorant. Those who really ARE trying don't require such clubbing into submission. I would NEVER subject myself to reading AS as just a novel. Like, enough already!

Why do you suppose we are ignorant about AS and need to be lectured? Why do you suppose you know more about it than we do? Do you even know where you are?

--Brant

[sjw]

Ayn could easily have said the same thing in 1/4 as many pages. It REALLY drags, and that makes the reader miss some important points. Her non-fiction, by contrast,is much, much better, some of the very best writing ever put on paper or screen.

I keep looking for important points in your posts.

Rand's fiction is far better than her non-fiction. And I think she would agree. Actually I recall her saying that the fiction writing was far more challenging than non-fiction, which explains a lot, because I really don't know how hard she was trying (See her CUI essay on IP, ugh...)

Shayne

[Brant Gaede]

Ayn could easily have said the same thing in 1/4 as many pages. It REALLY drags, and that makes the reader miss some important points. Her non-fiction, by contrast,is much, much better, some of the very best writing ever put on paper or screen.

I keep looking for important points in your posts.

Rand's fiction is far better than her non-fiction. And I think she would agree. Actually I recall her saying that the fiction writing was far more challenging than non-fiction, which explains a lot, because I really don't know how hard she was trying (See her CUI essay on IP, ugh...)

Shayne

Do you mean intellectual property? What chapter is that? You find this one big thing to you and ignore the rest of the book?

--Brant

what chapter?

[sjw]

Do you mean intellectual property? What chapter is that?

Yeah, patents and copyrights.

You find this one big thing to you and ignore the rest of the book?

WTF?

Shayne

[Brant Gaede]

Do you mean intellectual property? What chapter is that?

Yeah, patents and copyrights.

You find this one big thing to you and ignore the rest of the book?

WTF?

Shayne

Ah. Chapter 11. It's nice to have the hardcover for reference. Can't evaluate it now apropos youse. See also chapter 3. Deleted that extra space between your post and your name, JFTR. Can't help you with "WTF?" You'll have to help yourself.

--Brant

WTF?

[RagJohn]

um,maybe it's because she asked me what she did? :-)If you have a problem with my posts, why read them, hmm? I just skip the stuff I'm not interested in, like cooking, etc. Why can't you do the same? Surely I am not THAT intriguing?

[kiaer.ts]

over about a 2 year period, I kept seeing Ayn refer to this and that having been "dealt with" in AS. I wouldn't remember it, so I'd read it again. Like I said, the good stuff mostly got lost in the "fluff", and her longdrawn out browbeating about a given subject. She'd get so obcessed about plugging all the little holes that the "smoke and mirrors" crowd MIGHT try to wriggle thru! Sheesh, I got it with the first sentence of the (page long) paragraph, you know? Give me a break, lady. There's no point trying to teach the willfully blind/ignorant. Those who really ARE trying don't require such clubbing into submission. I would NEVER subject myself to reading AS as just a novel. Like, enough already!

Why do you suppose we are ignorant about AS and need to be lectured? Why do you suppose you know more about it than we do? Do you even know where you are?

--Brant

He thinks this is Objectionist Living.

[syrakusos]

I first read it when I was 16. Over the years, as I re-read it, I was impressed with the characters more and more. They got deeper and more complicated...then I remembered the famous quote from Mark Twain about his father. Of course.

When I first read it, I had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up. I still don't. But I sold a lot of writing along the way, 300 newspaper and magazine articles, two books, and two science fiction stories, and gotten some literary awards for my efforts. My specialties are factory automation and numismatics: machinery and money.

Once, I parodied Rand's style as if I were a writer parodying a style, but, really, humor aside, she really had a gift, a hot pen. I see her influence among the writers I read, William Gibson often, Pat Cadigan right now.

As for her philosophy, none of the professors who gave me the A grades leading to my summa cum laude matriculation would write letters of recommendation for me for graduate school, so I returned to my alma mater to earn a master's, but the fact is that they gave me A grades because unlike my conservative friends, I really have my facts and values integrated. I do superior work because like buildings on sites, two papers are the same, and every paper deserved my best effort, no different than if I were inventing a new metal alloy.

Myself, give and take, Atlas Shrugged in particular, and the works of Ayn Rand in general might not bear up under an intellectual microscope, but, over all, I am better off for having read them... several times each... since 1966...

Edited December 26, 2010 by Michael E. Marotta

[Alfonso Jones]

Ayn could easily have said the same thing in 1/4 as many pages. It REALLY drags, and that makes the reader miss some important points. Her non-fiction, by contrast,is much, much better, some of the very best writing ever put on paper or screen.

I suspect that the reason for making such a statement is that you missed most of the point of Atlas Shrugged. I find AS to be extremely compact - packed with fascinating plot, characterization and implications.

I suggest the following exercise: Try to summarize the content of Galt's speech more succinctly, her coherently and giving the support for the results (not just a "standing on one foot" summary). See how well that works, how successful you are at cutting it to 25% of the current length.

Bill P

[Philip Coates]

Subject: Bragging

> I sold a lot of writing

...[have] gotten..literary awards

...my summa cum laude.

....[i have a] master's...A grades.

..I really have my facts and values integrated. I do superior work... [Michael M]

I realize this list has gone downhill in terms of relevance and focus of material, but I wish it would attract fewer posts that try to impress us, in which the writer tries to smuggle in references to how accomplished or what a big shot he or she is.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I realize this list has gone downhill in terms of relevance and focus of material...

Phil,

When was it ever relevant in your sense?

Aren't you just doing your own form of bragging with this stuff?

Michael

[sjw]

Subject: Bragging

> I sold a lot of writing

...[have] gotten..literary awards

...my summa cum laude.

....[i have a] master's...A grades.

..I really have my facts and values integrated. I do superior work... [Michael M]

I realize this list has gone downhill in terms of relevance and focus of material, but I wish it would attract fewer posts that try to impress us, in which the writer tries to smuggle in references to how accomplished or what a big shot he or she is.

So one guy writes a post and you abstract what you think you see him doing and then pin it on the members of "this list." And what is it that bugs you so much? A personality issue. It's not even about philosophy. I think you missed your calling, you should have gone into the "self help" field.

Shayne

[Brant Gaede]

Are you feeling okay, Phil? That's pretty weak stuff considering what you usually put out.

--Brant

[merjet]

Subject: Bragging

> I sold a lot of writing

...[have] gotten..literary awards

...my summa cum laude.

....[i have a] master's...A grades.

..I really have my facts and values integrated. I do superior work... [Michael M]

I realize this list has gone downhill in terms of relevance and focus of material, but I wish it would attract fewer posts that try to impress us, in which the writer tries to smuggle in references to how accomplished or what a big shot he or she is.

Maybe Phil was trying a head kick and fell on his butt (ref).

[Philip Coates]

Subject: Explaining what Bragging is and Isn't

> Aren't you just doing your own form of bragging with this stuff?

Michael, bragging is when you find an excuse to insert stuff about how great you are or your accomplishments when it's not relevant.

(For example: I wrote some stuff about being a beginner in karate, so it was relevant to talk about the different kicks I was learning. That wasn't bragging. Or: I remember someone back on SoloP asked me what have you ever done for Oism, so it was relevant to mention things I did in so cal.)

Another example: If someone wouldn't take you seriously as knowledgeable about X, it's relevant to cite your long experience, etc.

But this is a thread about reading Atlas Shrugged, not about someone's academic achievements.

To put it in one phrase -- Bragging is when it seems gratuitous...and/or if there is too much, too many self pats on the back.

[Philip Coates]

Another example I just thought of: If I recall it was a thread about how to teach and about literature and Jeff Riggenbach made a very long post about how much experience he had in those areas. That was relevant, giving some credentials and relevant background, and it was neither bragging nor inappropriate. (Which doesn't mean that the person with the most 'credentials' or experience necessarily wins or is correct.)

Edited December 27, 2010 by Philip Coates

[Brant Gaede]

One person's brag is another person's credentials.

Phil, absent something really offensively egregious, why not just let people be? They aren't going to set up Phil filters for their postings.

--Brant

I know a little about a lot and a lot about a little, but I'm not saying which applies to what

[shifty]

Subject: Explaining what Bragging is and Isn't

To put it in one phrase -- Bragging is when it seems gratuitous...and/or if there is too much, too many self pats on the back.

It seems to me that Michael Marotta posted his credentials not to brag or to augment his authority on the subject of AS's quality, but to asserts its value by directly crediting it with his success. I'm sure that that was the point of his post.

-Alex

[Rich Engle]

I occasionally wonder what would represent the ideal, er, "list" to Phil (that is to say, were he operating one).

All I can think of about this is that Phil would be on it.

Well, that is not all the way true. A person might go on the list. How they would go on this list would be up to Phil, of course; perhaps some probationary period would be involved, but the point is I am not sure how he would be handling such a thing, and in the end it is largely inconsequential, because the results would be (at least to my mind) inevitable.

But let us move forward and assume another person were to be on the list--after all, this is kind of what lists are about, no man being an island and all that.

I would, though, recommend the probationary idea to Phil, because it would provide him with more raw material than if he were to put up some kind of extensive front-end screening process, tempting though that might be to him. Probationary moderation would allow Phil to cull out the herd, and nurture the types of thinking, behavior, and, for that matter even grammatical and literary styles that Phil finds appropriate. This would be enriching for him, if not for certain numbers of those who would find the experience excruciating or at least very pedantic. I guess it would be, at its best, an experience somewhat akin to having a Hell's Angel go and try to live with the Amish.

You see? It gets confusing as Hell when you start trying to picture some of the specifics. Oh, you can say that much of it would be predictable--you can say that if you have a lot of Phil Experience<tm>. But, the devil remains in the details.

That is why I say that all I really know about it is that Phil would be on his list.

I do not believe I would go on Phil's List<tm> even were he to invite me (which he might or might not do, though I suspect the latter). It would be tempting, though, in a challenging (and masochistic) way. I am getting older and I have to pick my engagements more carefully, especially ones that require great stamina.

rde

[Roger Bissell]

Subject: Explaining what Bragging is and Isn't

> Aren't you just doing your own form of bragging with this stuff?

Michael, bragging is when you find an excuse to insert stuff about how great you are or your accomplishments when it's not relevant.

[...]

To put it in one phrase -- Bragging is when it seems gratuitous...and/or if there is too much, too many self pats on the back.

Hmmm -- doesn't this last sentence of Phil's fit (at least implicitly) his own definition of "bragging"?

He's pointing out the obvious, that he has put it into one phrase (how succinct and cognitively economical of him!). Since we really don't need to be explicitly told that he has put his opinion in one phrase, isn't his doing so...gratuitous?

I leave the "and/or" to others, who are better than I at the dredging up of instances where Phil providing an excess of self-back-patting. :-)

REB

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Roger,

LOL...

You got it. I wonder why Phil didn't.

We communicate by saying and doing. So it's entirely possible for a person to to brag by his actions, not just by his words.

I've been studying how cognitive bias blinds a person to this kind of realization. I think Phil has a bad case of cognitive bias when his own actions are involved.

But I like him.

God knows why, but I do. He's one of the good guys.

In a weird way, he brings out motherly feelings in me.

Michael

[PDS]

Roger,

LOL...

You got it. I wonder why Phil didn't.

We communicate by saying and doing. So it's entirely possible for a person to to brag by his actions, not just by his words.

I've been studying how cognitive bias blinds a person to this kind of realization. I think Phil has a bad case of cognitive bias when his own actions are involved.

But I like him.

God knows why, but I do. He's one of the good guys.

In a weird way, he brings out motherly feelings in me.

Michael

I concur. And my bet is that Phil is far more likable than he lets on.