Introduction and a bit of an explanation of my ideas

[Selene]

Good luck in all your endeavors.

Don't forget to send George a Christmas card.

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

I have not participated in forum/chat/blogs since late high school, basically because I found interacting with people on the internet to be pointless, and the interaction generally just tended to piss me off. About a week back online, spurred on only because I stare at a computer screen all day at work, has reminded me exactly why I stopped.

I won't be coming here again.

Thanks, Bob. She would have left shortly anyway after the rousting she got on SOLOP, but you didn't have to hit her over the head with your stick.

Very few women seem to hold up in such Internet environments as this one.

--Brant

[Rich Engle]

Welcome!

Anyone that resonates to Heinlein usually resonates with me, for one of the many things you say.

The only thing I'd ever get into it with you about would be the Scientology, but as they say, there are many roads. . .

You will meet wonderous folks here. Looking forward!!

Happy Holidays,

rde

[Selene]

Welcome!

Anyone that resonates to Heinlein usually resonates with me, for one of the many things you say.

The only thing I'd ever get into it with you about would be the Scientology, but as they say, there are many roads. . .

You will meet wonderous folks here. Looking forward!!

Happy Holidays,

rde

I have not participated in forum/chat/blogs since late high school, basically because I found interacting with people on the internet to be pointless, and the interaction generally just tended to piss me off. About a week back online, spurred on only because I stare at a computer screen all day at work, has reminded me exactly why I stopped.

I won't be coming here again.

lol - I never know with you, but did you just miss her early exit or is this some maudlin humorous shot that you are so adept at?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

A lot of bottled rage in that one.

I hope she finds some peace of mind and I wish her well.

Michael

[9thdoctor]

About a week back online, spurred on only because I stare at a computer screen all day at work, has reminded me exactly why I stopped.

You got a pretty warm welcome here; one person (on this thread) was a jerk, but he’s a jerk towards everyone, all the time. Ignore him, I think most of us already do. And he’s not the only one.

It seems that after some concentrated time invested between here and SLOP, you burned out. Here’s a bit of advice: spend less time on forums, and/or spread it around, find forums for other things that interest you besides Ayn Rand. And figure out who’s worth reading, then ignore the others.

Ciao.

[Brant Gaede]

She went to SOLOP expecting to deal with ideas but they scorched her. I can't think of a worse place for a newbie to go.

--Brant

[Xray]

Welcome to OL. The atmosphere here is much more conducive to independent thinking than you will find on SOLO. What kind of reception did you get over there?

Ghs

From a couple of folks, great. From the Randroids, not so much. Anarchists are evil and all that.

By the way, I am a huge fan of your work Mr. Smith. Atheism: The Case Against God is not only terrific on its subject, but it's a fantastic general work on epistemology, ontology and logic. I have been half-heartedly trying for a few years to find a way to contact you. Just my luck you respond to my introductory post!

I don't know what it was that ruffled Chu-hua's feathers so much here that she has flown away before having settled down for a discussion.

As for Scientology, while it does not not operate with the concept of a personal god, it does operate with the concept of a transcendent spiritual being: what they call "Thetan" fits the profile.

From the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan

A "thetan is an immortal spiritual being; the human soul."[3]

Thetans are believed to be reborn time and time again in new bodies through a process called "assumption" which is analogous to reincarnation.

Chu-hua called herself an atheist, but if she believes in the "Thetan" thing, this would mark her as religious.

I would interest me what Chu-hua thinks of Ayn Rand's firm denial of any form transcendence. Imo believing in a transendent concept like the "Thetan" is incompatible with Objectivism's premises.

Thanks, Bob. She would have left shortly anyway after the rousting she got on SOLOP, but you didn't have to hit her over the head with your stick.

What do you think Bob wrote that would offend Chu-hua?

Very few women seem to hold up in such Internet environments as this one.

I ask myself what could be the reason for this. Imo it's not that women aren't 'tough' enough to deal with opposition. Women can be every bit as tough and persistent as men when it comes to defending their opinion. So it must be something else. Any ideas?

Edited December 19, 2010 by Xray

[Brant Gaede]

I would interest me what Chu-hua thinks of Ayn Rand's firm denial of any form transcendence. Imo believing in a transendent concept like the "Thetan" is incompatible with Objectism's premises.

She left out of the inertia of her leaving SOLOP goaded on by one poster here. She shouldn't have gone there in the first place, but didn't know any better. It's problematic how much she is interested in discussing ideas as opposed to ramming them down others' throats fueled by the absolutism of her high moral dudgeon and how right she is about this and that.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

She's young and pretty. That will get her attention wherever she goes for now.

But her discourse, even by SLOP standards (on her posts there), was so full of expressions of violence and spite that she turned a lot of people off. I read one passage where she wanted someone (I think it was Obama) to be hung (and maybe tortured first--I don't remember the quote and don't feel like looking it up).

She also opened a thread, which seems like it no longer exists, where she obviously took pleasure in a letter a deranged pirate of yesteryear sent to the English captain who sunk his ship (I hope I understood that correctly). The pirate expressed some of the most spiteful hate-filled rhetoric I have ever read from that era, and he described in detail the torture in hell he desired for the English captain.

She presented this as if she got off on it. To be fair, I would be pissed, too, if someone sunk my ship, but I would never expect my expressions of rage and frustration to become the inspiration of another. Nor do I drink in the rage of another for my spiritual fuel.

As this young woman's rhetoric was laced with extreme hatred for the USA (see this beauty of a thread she started on SLOP: al-Qaeda Does Not Exist but the USA is a Terrorist State), I wonder how real she wants to make her rage become. She sells high-priced cars, so this might be nothing more than upper-class angst and posturing, but I have learned to be careful when people talk like that. From where I sit, if's a 50-50 proposition. And I don't like those odds where real violence is a possibility.

I remember one very cute girl in Narcotics Anonymous when I was an active member in São Paulo, Brazil. She was a bit petulant, like the young woman here was, but the dudes all wanted to get next to her. Me, too. back then. I admit it.

That is, until one day she opened her soul in a meeting. Then we sat in horror has she described her pleasure in gory detail. The only thing that really excited her more than drugs was the vision of a person busted up or shot, lying on a public street with blood pouring out of the person's body onto the pavement. And she went on and on, describing what she had seen and what she had encouraged others to do. The dead. The maimed. Her smile. The glimmer in her eyes when she described the details made quite a few dudes back off immediately.

Not me, though.

But common sense started seeping into my pickled brain by osmosis at that time--something about NA meetings was taking--and I gradually backed off. I'm not sure, but I think this girl stuck with the program and moved away from blood-lust. Even so, I do not envy her boyfriend and I thank my lucky stars I was still too busy with relapsing in drugs to pursue her (we got along more than fine). When you don't know someone and they express pleasure in spite and torture, caution is advised.

Despite all these thoughts, I still wish the young Chu-hua Zhū well.

I don't know if it sucks to be her, but I do know, from what I have read, I wouldn't want to be her. Especially later, when age removes the cuteness and the attention that comes with it. The people I have known who expressed themselves like she does were not happy people at all--and they always blamed others for their misery.

I hope this will not be her case, but ultimately, she is the owner of she. And she will decide.

Michael

[sjw]

A lot of bottled rage in that one.

I hope she finds some peace of mind and I wish her well.

Michael

Yeah you gotta unbottle your rage if you want to survive here ;)

Shayne

-Glad I'm not the one who scared her away.

Edited December 19, 2010 by sjw

[Rich Engle]

I knew this was going to be funny, and it was. Yay!

Reminds me of when. . .wait, belay that. Never mind. Resume your normal activities, good citizens.

[George H. Smith]

She also opened a thread, which seems like it no longer exists, where she obviously took pleasure in a letter a deranged pirate of yesteryear sent to the English captain who sunk his ship (I hope I understood that correctly). The pirate expressed some of the most spiteful hate-filled rhetoric I have ever read from that era, and he described in detail the torture in hell he desired for the English captain.

She presented this as if she got off on it. To be fair, I would be pissed, too, if someone sunk my ship, but I would never expect my expressions of rage and frustration to become the inspiration of another. Nor do I drink in the rage of another for my spiritual fuel.

This may have been the same letter that I quoted for many years in my lectures on American history for Cato summer seminars. I also included it in my Knowledge Products tapes on the American Revolution, narrated by George C. Scott. Here is an excerpt from that manuscript:

This preference for cheap tea was not peculiar to Americans. Over half of the tea consumed in England was smuggled. And English smugglers, like their American counterparts, could be quite indignant when their free-trade activities were interrupted by government.

Consider, for example, this colorful letter written by an English smuggler to Captain Bursack of the Speedwell, a British revenue cutter:

Sir: Damn thee and God damn thy two purblind eyes thou bugger, thou death-looking son of a bitch. O, that I had been there (with my company) for thy sake when thou tookest them men of mine on board the "Speedwell" cutter on Monday, the 14th of December. I would drove thee and they gang to Hell where thou belongest, thou Devil incarnet. Go down, thou Hell Hound, unto thy kennel below and bathe thyself in that sulphurous lake that has been so long prepared for such as thee, for it is time the world was rid of such a monster. Thou art no man but a devil, thou fiend. O Lucifer, I hope thou will soon fall into Hell like a star from the sky, there to lie unpitied and unrelented of any for ever and ever, which God grant of his infinite mercy. Amen.

I have never seen this letter quoted elsewhere (apart from the source where I got it), but if it is the same letter as the one you remember, I cannot imagine why you would object to a libertarian praising it. It is expressed in typical vitriolic rhetoric from the 18th century, and it is an absolute gem. It evoked more applause from Cato audiences than anything else I ever quoted.

Ghs

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

George,

That's the one.

In a campy kind of way, it's all good fun.

But if someone takes that stuff seriously to heart and starts acting that way for real, as in wanting to see that stuff in reality and delighting in it, it gets really, really weird.

I speak from experience.

Your mileage may vary...

(EDIT: I have come to the conclusion that being libertarian or Objectivist does not make you immune from being a mental case if that is your bent. )

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

She also opened a thread, which seems like it no longer exists, where she obviously took pleasure in a letter a deranged pirate of yesteryear sent to the English captain who sunk his ship (I hope I understood that correctly). The pirate expressed some of the most spiteful hate-filled rhetoric I have ever read from that era, and he described in detail the torture in hell he desired for the English captain.

She presented this as if she got off on it. To be fair, I would be pissed, too, if someone sunk my ship, but I would never expect my expressions of rage and frustration to become the inspiration of another. Nor do I drink in the rage of another for my spiritual fuel.

This may have been the same letter that I quoted for many years in my lectures on American history for Cato summer seminars. I also included it in my Knowledge Products tapes on the American Revolution, narrated by George C. Scott. Here is an excerpt from that manuscript:

This preference for cheap tea was not peculiar to Americans. Over half of the tea consumed in England was smuggled. And English smugglers, like their American counterparts, could be quite indignant when their free-trade activities were interrupted by government.

Consider, for example, this colorful letter written by an English smuggler to Captain Bursack of the Speedwell, a British revenue cutter:

Sir: Damn thee and God damn thy two purblind eyes thou bugger, thou death-looking son of a bitch. O, that I had been there (with my company) for thy sake when thou tookest them men of mine on board the "Speedwell" cutter on Monday, the 14th of December. I would drove thee and they gang to Hell where thou belongest, thou Devil incarnet. Go down, thou Hell Hound, unto thy kennel below and bathe thyself in that sulphurous lake that has been so long prepared for such as thee, for it is time the world was rid of such a monster. Thou art no man but a devil, thou fiend. O Lucifer, I hope thou will soon fall into Hell like a star from the sky, there to lie unpitied and unrelented of any for ever and ever, which God grant of his infinite mercy. Amen.

I have never seen this letter quoted elsewhere (apart from the source where I got it), but if it is the same letter as the one you remember, I cannot imagine why you would object to a libertarian praising it. It is expressed in typical vitriolic rhetoric from the 18th century, and it is an absolute gem. It evoked more applause from Cato audiences than anything else I ever quoted.

Ghs

Apparently the seizure took place in 1699 and the letter was delivered in Jan. 1700. So it's all 17th C. stuff. There was a Speedwell built in the late 16th C. that took Pilgrims to Mass. well into the 17th. C including accompanying The Mayflower in 1620. It's hard to believe it was a revenue cutter 80 yrs later. My suspicion is they merely slapped the name on another vessel.

--Brant

[George H. Smith]

George,

That's the one.

In a campy kind of way, it's all good fun.

But if someone takes that stuff seriously to heart and starts acting that way for real, as in wanting to see that stuff in reality and delighting in it, it gets really, really weird....

Start acting what way?

Smuggling was one among many capital offenses in 18th century England; it's something that could get you hanged. The smuggler who wrote the letter was not on board his vessel when his men were captured and arrested by revenue agents. (The crews of such vessels were likely to be fellow villagers and long-time friends.) He was outraged and compared the captain of the Speedwell revenue cutter to Lucifer, while expressing his hope that the captain would be cast down to hell where he belonged.

The point here is that the smuggler fervently believed that he had a right to engage in free trade and that the revenue agents were the real criminals. He indicates that he would have fought to protect his friends from the potentially horrendous fate that awaited them. I see nothing objectionable in this. We find precisely the same sentiment expressed by American revolutionaries from the same period.

Ghs

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

George,

Heh.

I wasn't not talking about the morality of smuggling and neither are you.

Go on and defend the damsel's honor. I don't care.

And good luck to ya'.

Michael

[George H. Smith]

George,

Heh.

I wasn't not talking about the morality of smuggling and neither are you.

Go on and defend the damsel's honor. I don't care.

And good luck to ya'.

Michael

My response had nothing to do with Chu-hua Zhū; I don't even know what her specific comments were. Among other things, I was puzzled by your comment, "But if someone takes that stuff seriously to heart and starts acting that way for real, as in wanting to see that stuff in reality and delighting in it, it gets really, really weird."

What did you mean by "starts acting that way for real"?

Ghs

[Rich Engle]

I think you might be right, MSK.

Based on past experience, I notice that even certain The Great Ones, when they sniff a piece of Choice Tail, are willing to give much more ground than they normally do for us regular mortals. I have seen them roll over just looking at a picture that has high cheekbones in it. Ask Dennis Hardin, he might admit to that. ;)

To me, this is simply an educational issue; one easily solved by recommending various sites, starting out with soft porn and working out to the leather and rubber and whips and chains arts, as need be. Clearly, a scalable solution is available.

And you can argue this with me forever, but I am all but sure that more than a few have been stroked off over things like yonder cheekbones. There is better out there for y'all! You don't need to justify it! If you are going to be wasting Kleenex, and be all legs akimbo in front of the screen, treat yourself to something exotic!

Still, for what it is worth, all this is OK with me, because it means they aren't dead yet. You just can't keep a good man (or his trusty soldier) down. Guns forward, gentlemen--tube the torpedoes, launch your meat missiles. But treat yourself to some style!

Plus, it is cute to watch when they defend the Lady's Honour<tm>.

rde

sniff, sniff. . .

:) OMG LMFAO OMG :) tee hee

Edited December 19, 2010 by Rich Engle

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

What did you mean by "starts acting that way for real"?

George,

I would say acting like Perigo, but he's a piker compared to some of the people I have in mind. (You wouldn't know them--they are in Brazil, hopefully buried in my past.)

Michael

[shifty]

I knew this was going to be funny, and it was. Yay!

Your brazen comment caused me to laugh out loud (I felt a bit of fleeting shame to that lol).

Out of curiosity, what did you find funny and what tipped you of that it was imminent?

[George H. Smith]

Apparently the seizure took place in 1699 and the letter was delivered in Jan. 1700. So it's all 17th C. stuff. There was a Speedwell built in the late 16th C. that took Pilgrims to Mass. well into the 17th. C including accompanying The Mayflower in 1620. It's hard to believe it was a revenue cutter 80 yrs later. My suspicion is they merely slapped the name on another vessel.

--Brant

No, the seizure took place around the time of the American Revolution. I remember this distinctly, because I wanted a quotation about English smuggling that was contemporaneous with American resistance to Britain.

The Speedwell you mentioned was a 60-ton ship. An English cutter was much smaller. An ancestor of the modern yacht, a cutter was built for speed and was unsuitable for a trans-ocean voyage.

I did a quick search on Google Books. A line from The Gentleman's Magazine (1829) reads: "In 1790, Lieutenant Monke was appointed to command the Speedwell cutter...."

Ghs

[Brant Gaede]

Okay, George. Thanks for agreeing with 1/2 of what I said. I'll see if I can if I can get you to agree with me about the rest of what is esteemed truth in my own mind. Stay tuned! Your original research might be deficient! If I can beat you on this--and I've got you halfway beat, right?--I'll be the first--right?--to ever beat you with words logically and factually constructed!

--Brant

research, more research!

[George H. Smith]

Okay, George. Thanks for agreeing with 1/2 of what I said. I'll see if I can if I can get you to agree with me about the rest of what is esteemed truth in my own mind. Stay tuned! Your original research might be deficient! If I can beat you on this--and I've got you halfway beat, right?--I'll be the first--right?--to ever beat you with words logically and factually constructed!

--Brant

research, more research!

I hate to disappoint you, Brant, but I did a search on Google Books for "cutter speedwell Bursack" and found the following snippet from King's Cutters: The Revenue Service and the War Against Smuggling:

Captain Brisac of the Speedwell cutter found these two letters in his morning mail in February 1790: Thou Damn'd Bursack, I'll break thy Back When I see thee Again and if I don't Depend upon't I kill one of thy men. ...

Ghs

[Brant Gaede]

Okay, George. Thanks for agreeing with 1/2 of what I said. I'll see if I can if I can get you to agree with me about the rest of what is esteemed truth in my own mind. Stay tuned! Your original research might be deficient! If I can beat you on this--and I've got you halfway beat, right?--I'll be the first--right?--to ever beat you with words logically and factually constructed!

--Brant

research, more research!

I hate to disappoint you, Brant, but I did a search on Google Books for "cutter speedwell Bursack" and found the following snippet from King's Cutters: The Revenue Service and the War Against Smuggling:

Captain Brisac of the Speedwell cutter found these two letters in his morning mail in February 1790: Thou Damn'd Bursack, I'll break thy Back When I see thee Again and if I don't Depend upon't I kill one of thy men. ...

Ghs

George, you sucker you. I had you do all my research for me.

--Brant

heh, heh, heh!