A Bold New Step for Objectivist Scholarship

[Dennis Hardin]

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross has done some terrific work in the area of grief and loss. She characterizes the five stages of grief as: Denial-Anger-Bargaining-Depression-Acceptance. As you might expect, her website has some religious content related to afterlife experiences. Here is a link to her website:

Grief.com - The Five Stages of Grief

Thanks. I'll check it out.

My friend isn't much of a reader, but he is a big fan of audio books. I haven't looked into this yet.

Do you know if Nathaniel Branden ever wrote anything on death and grieving?

On a related topic: My Bichon, Herbert, died on the morning of December 26, 2008. He dropped dead from a heart attack in front of me during our morning walk. This still messes up Christmas for me.

This video was shot nearly a year to the day before Herbert's death, and it took around a year before I could watch it without shedding tears. I understand why I was exceptionally close to this dog, but even so....

Ghs

Branden has a chapter on "Death Anxiety" in Honoring the Self. I don’t know if he has ever written anything on grief. I’ll check further and let you know if I find anything.

That’s a very touching (and funny) video with you and Herbert. I know exactly how you felt when he died. I had a cat named Dagny for 16 years. I was so torn up after she died that I had to write a memoir about her as part of my recovery. I have never been able to accept the idea of owning another pet. Losing Dagny was just too painful. It’s even difficult to write about now, almost 20 years later. Dagny used to start meowing as soon as she heard my footsteps on the stairs leading up to my apartment. I know I'll probably be skewered for admitting this, but I will swear I continued to hear her meowing every time I walked up those stairs for at least a year after she died. How weird is that?

[George H. Smith]

Enough already. Get a room.

LOL! I was honestly wondering who would be the first to use that line. My bet was on Brant, who would then have added a P.S. of some kind.

Ghs

[Selene]

Enough already. Get a room.

LOL! I was honestly wondering who would be the first to use that line. My bet was on Brant, who would then have added a P.S. of some kind.

Ghs

Actually, I was going to demand that you both bring this internet cybersex to a spectacular climax.

[Dennis Hardin]

Enough already. Get a room.

LOL! I was honestly wondering who would be the first to use that line. My bet was on Brant, who would then have added a P.S. of some kind.

Ghs

Few minds on OL are as lewd and lascivious as mine. Brant is close, though.

[George H. Smith]

That’s a very touching (and funny) video with you and Herbert. I know exactly how you felt when he died. I had a cat named Dagny for 16 years. I was so torn up after she died that I had to write a memoir about her as part of my recovery. I have never been able to accept the idea of owning another pet. Losing Dagny was just too painful. It’s even difficult to write about now, almost 20 years later. Dagny used to start meowing as soon as she heard my footsteps on the stairs leading up to my apartment. I know I'll probably be skewered for admitting this, but I will swear I continued to hear her meowing every time I walked up those stairs for at least a year after she died. How weird is that?

I expected to be very sad and upset after Herbert -- an uncommonly large Bichon Frise --died, but I didn't expect my sorrow to run so deep for so long.

Here is a true story of a remarkable act of kindness that touched me deeply, and still does.

I often went to an upscale restaurant/bar in downtown Bloomington called Reality Bites. It caters to a younger crowd, so I tended to stand out. But I got to know everyone and was treated very well.

I sometimes took Herbert to RB, and we sat at the sidewalk tables where everyone went crazy over him. So when I announced that he had died, people understood why I was so depressed. I had resolved not even to consider getting another dog until three months had passed, but if I did get another, it would definitely be a Bichon.

Perpetual puppies, too cute for words, and extraordinarily affectionate, Bichons are a perfect breed for people who live alone. But they are expensive. Puppies can easily run $1000 and up, and, apart from kennel dogs, you are lucky to find older ones for less than $500.

A woman I got to know at RB named Robyn, the girlfriend of the chef, was also a dog lover. I mentioned that I wanted to get another Bichon and asked her to keep her eyes open for one that was more in my price range.

After about ten days went by, Robyn emailed a link to me, saying that a 6 month old Bichon was being sold by a family for only $300 (the little boy was extremely allergic to the fur), and that I should check it out immediately and then phone her with my reaction. I called Robyn and said the dog was perfect and the price was very good, but that I wouldn't have the money until two weeks or so. I wondered if I could put down a deposit to hold it for two weeks, because I expected the dog to sell quickly at that price.

Robyn asked me if I wanted it. I repeated, yes, but I couldn't get it immediately. She replied that that was no problem. She had taken up a collection at RB and had the cash. If I wanted the dog, she would call the owners immediately and then drive me to Decatur the next day to pick it up. It wouldn't cost me a dime.

Everything went as planned, and within 24 hours I had my new Bichon pup, a mischievous and adorable ball of fluff. I named him Jazz.

I cannot express the gratitude I felt towards Robyn and the staff at RB. They knew me, but it wasn't as if we were old friends. They did this, with Robyn as the instigator (and major contributor), solely as an act of kindness. It absolutely floored me.

Ghs

[Selene]

George:

The intimate connection between man and dog is perfection in my opinion. One of the professions that I was going to go into was Veterinary medicine. I started working at the Animal Medical Center in the summer when I was sixteen.

I was going out with an older nurse from the mid west who worked there. One day I was called to one of the treatment rooms where she was with a blind man whose seeing eye dog of 16 years was dying.

He thought he was alone and began to say goodbye to this perfect friend that had given him so much. Greensleeves was being piped in on the PA system. Needless to say there were three humans hugging this dog and sobbing together when he finished saying good bye. I never forgot that day and it still brings tears to my eyes.

I have had several animals in my life. One of my first was an Irish Setter I named Ragnar. He shared 17 years of my life. I know how his loss effected me and I am glad you were able to move on with another dog. There is nothing like the absolute complete love that they transmit.

I would suggest anyone who has lost an animal read Mark Levin book on his rescue dog Sprite. Rescuing Sprite: A Dog Lover's Story of Joy and Anguish

Adam

[Dennis Hardin]

I cannot express the gratitude I felt towards Robyn and the staff at RB. They knew me, but it wasn't as if we were old friends. They did this, with Robyn as the instigator (and major contributor), solely as an act of kindness. It absolutely floored me.

Ghs

The chef’s girlfriend took up a collection for you? They got $300 from the patrons at an upscale restaurant so you could buy a new dog to replace the one that everybody liked so much. You call that a touching story? I would call that a straight-up brain-fucking joygasmic miracle. Wow.

If somebody did that for me, I would shoot myself just to be sure I didn’t wake up the next day and discover that it wasn’t true.

That’s enough to make you think the world is a glorious place and mankind is a rational and benevolent species.

Well okay I guess we don’t have to go that far.

[Xray]

Enough already. Get a room.

LOL! I was honestly wondering who would be the first to use that line. My bet was on Brant, who would then have added a P.S. of some kind.

Ghs

My bet was on Brant too. Or on Selene, had he participated on this thread more often. But I just saw Selene did actually make a humorous comment, in #328.

As for Daunce, she's very quick-witted, and would thus be a perfect match for Ghs. ;)

I know I'll probably be skewered for admitting this, but I will swear I continued to hear her meowing every time I walked up those stairs for at least a year after she died. How weird is that?

You won't be skewered at all. It is not rare for dog and cat owners to have perceptions of their deceased beloved pet still being with them in some way.

A colleague of mine told me that for years after her dog had died, whenever she walked down the street, she had the distinct feeling of the dog still walking beside her.

The chef’s girlfriend took up a collection for you? They got $300 from the patrons at an upscale restaurant so you could buy a new dog to replace the one that everybody liked so much. You call that a touching story? I would call that a straight-up brain-fucking joygasmic miracle. Wow.

Maybe 300 dollars may not be that much money in the eyes of people who are patrons at an upscale restaurant?

On the other hand, I know from experience that rich people can be quite stingy too. I worked as chambermaid during my student years, and it was usually the less affluent who were the more generous tippers.

But in George's case, it looks like this is more a question of empathy for an appreciated regular, Ghs, and that it was not hard to collect the money because 300 dollars is not that big a sum for the patrons (considering the money a patron at an upscale restauant probably has available). Plus, the sum was split among them.

But still, it is was a very kind act on the part of the chef's girlfriend and the patrons, an act one cannot expect as a rule.

That’s enough to make you think the world is a glorious place and mankind is a rational and benevolent species.

It certainly was an act of benevolence and the great thing about voluntary giving is that the giver can expect as much joy as the receiver.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Xray

[Xray]

There are as many reasons for becoming an alcoholic as there are alcoholics. And some are definitely more justifiable than others.

I have problems with the term "justifiable" here because it may connote approval. (But then I'm no native speaker of English, so my connotation I have with "justified" may not be shared by native speakers).

I would more use a term like "understandable" here. One can understand the reason why person X does this or that, without morally condemning or condoning the act.

The story of George's friend makes me think of the reigning Spanish king Juan Carlos who accidentally killed his brother in 1956, when a gunshot went off as they were either cleaning a pistol, or during some prank involving the weapon (much has been veiled about this tragic event).

Juan Carlos was 18, his brother Alfonso 14 at the time.

In Juan Carlos's case, it was their mother who later became an alcoholic, drowning in drink her despair over this tragegy.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Xray

[George H. Smith]

The chef’s girlfriend took up a collection for you? They got $300 from the patrons at an upscale restaurant so you could buy a new dog to replace the one that everybody liked so much.

I may not have been clear about this. In addition to Robyn, it was the restaurant staff and the two owners (twin brothers), not the patrons, who contributed money. This made it even more significant for me. A lot of customers come and go from that place, and I knew virtually none of them by name. But I was (and am)on a first name basis with the owners, bartenders, waiters and waitresses, cooks, etc. This is not a huge place, so we are probably talking about 20 people overall. Given how anxious all these folks were to see Jazz for the first time, I suspect each person chipped in ten bucks, and that Robyn contributed the rest. But she didn't break it down, and it would have a bit tacky, to say the least, for me to ask.

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

As for Daunce, she's very quick-witted, and would thus be a perfect match for Ghs. ;)

I fear that I came on too strong and may have offended the delicate sensibilities of our Victorian mother of genius. I will therefore start over with a sophisticated serenade of seduction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HAjhtPZGDY&feature=related

Ghs

[caroljane]

Enough already. Get a room.

A room? Well there's the parlour of course... and rooms are always going vacant here in the Home, poor Grandpa McAloon isn't looking too well...I'd have to ask Matron.

Xray, we are supposed to be in this together. Now you are trying to palm me off on George and hog Plutocratus Anonymous all to yourself. Are they turning you into an Objectivist or something?

All aflutter,

Carol

Edited March 20, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Xray]

Xray, we are supposed to be in this together. Now you are trying to palm me off on George and hog Plutocratus Anonymous all to yourself.

Daunce I assure you I'm doing this for purely altruistic reasons, I swear on my mislaid copy of The Virtue of Selfishness! ;)

"Plutocratus Anynoymous" - cool name you gave the Yet Unfound One!

Are they turning you into an Objectivist or something?

Now that gave me quite a shock, Daunce! I just ran to the mirror because Leonard Zelig came to mind, remember that guy Woody Allen played in his film where Zelig morphs, chameoleon-like, into resembling the people he happens to be with?

Could I have started to look like Dennis Harden, or George Smith or Ayn Rand (I've intensely studied many photos of her in the past two years, and some Zelig-like effect might have occurred, by mysterious osmosis!)?

I can't see any signs yet, so everything still seems to be okay. I just realized though when looking in the mirror that it's time to 'fake reality' a little and color my hair again (I always tend to put that off too long).

Edited March 20, 2011 by Xray

[caroljane]

Xray, we are supposed to be in this together. Now you are trying to palm me off on George and hog Plutocratus Anonymous all to yourself.

Daunce I assure you I'm doing this for purely altruistic reasons, I swear on my mislaid copy of The Virtue of Selfishness! ;)

Are they turning you into an Objectivist or something?

Now that gave me quite a shock, Daunce! I just ran to the mirror because Leonard Zelig came to mind, remember that guy Woody Allen played in his film where Zelig morphs, chameoleon-like, into resembling the people he happens to be with?

Could I have started to look like Dennis Harden, or George Smith or Ayn Rand (I've intensely studied many photos of her in the past two years, and some Zelig-like effect might have occurred, by mysterious osmosis!)?

I can't see any signs yet, so everything still seems to be okay. I just realized though when looking in the mirror that it's time to 'fake reality' a little and color my hair again (I always tend to put that off too long).

We can't just go by looks, though. In real life I already looked like Ludwig von Mises, so it's the "Stockholm Syndrome"psychological effects we have to watch out for. Just yesterday I paid my subway fare even though the collector was fast asleep, and when a panhandler asked if I could help him out, I said no without even apologizing for not having any money.

Just a hint: when you retouch your hair, don't go redhead.We do not want to drive Adam over the edge.

[caroljane]

double post

Edited March 20, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Selene]

Xray, we are supposed to be in this together. Now you are trying to palm me off on George and hog Plutocratus Anonymous all to yourself.

Daunce I assure you I'm doing this for purely altruistic reasons, I swear on my mislaid copy of The Virtue of Selfishness! ;)

"Plutocratus Anynoymous" - cool name you gave the Yet Unfound One!

Are they turning you into an Objectivist or something?

Now that gave me quite a shock, Daunce! I just ran to the mirror because Leonard Zelig came to mind, remember that guy Woody Allen played in his film where Zelig morphs, chameoleon-like, into resembling the people he happens to be with?

Could I have started to look like Dennis Harden, or George Smith or Ayn Rand (I've intensely studied many photos of her in the past two years, and some Zelig-like effect might have occurred, by mysterious osmosis!)?

I can't see any signs yet, so everything still seems to be okay. I just realized though when looking in the mirror that it's time to 'fake reality' a little and color my hair again (I always tend to put that off too long).

Ms. Xray:

Are you sure it was not the picture of Ms. Dorian Gray you are turning into?

Wow, what did you swear when you were mislaid on that copy of The Virtue of Selfishness?

Is that some kind of German literature kink or fetish?

Adam

reverting to what Ms. Xray thinks is my "type"

[George H. Smith]

Enough already. Get a room.

A room? Well there's the parlour of course... and rooms are always going vacant here in the Home, poor Grandpa McAloon isn't looking too well...I'd have to ask Matron.

Xray, we are supposed to be in this together. Now you are trying to palm me off on George and hog Plutocratus Anonymous all to yourself. Are they turning you into an Objectivist or something?

All aflutter,

Carol

I'm just hoping that you are not really a 300-pound truck driver named Billy Bob who has a flair for language.

Ghs

[caroljane]

Xray, we are supposed to be in this together. Now you are trying to palm me off on George and hog Plutocratus Anonymous all to yourself.

Daunce I assure you I'm doing this for purely altruistic reasons, I swear on my mislaid copy of The Virtue of Selfishness! ;)

"Plutocratus Anynoymous" - cool name you gave the Yet Unfound One!

Are they turning you into an Objectivist or something?

Now that gave me quite a shock, Daunce! I just ran to the mirror because Leonard Zelig came to mind, remember that guy Woody Allen played in his film where Zelig morphs, chameoleon-like, into resembling the people he happens to be with?

Could I have started to look like Dennis Harden, or George Smith or Ayn Rand (I've intensely studied many photos of her in the past two years, and some Zelig-like effect might have occurred, by mysterious osmosis!)?

I can't see any signs yet, so everything still seems to be okay. I just realized though when looking in the mirror that it's time to 'fake reality' a little and color my hair again (I always tend to put that off too long).

Ms. Xray:

Are you sure it was not the picture of Ms. Dorian Gray you are turning into?

Wow, what did you swear when you were mislaid on that copy of The Virtue of Selfishness?

Is that some kind of German literature kink or fetish?

Adam

reverting to what Ms. Xray thinks is my "type"

Adam, I am starting to worry about you!

First you showed you had knowledge of the ultra-secret hockey stick sexual subculture, and now you play disingenuous about

Rainer Maria Rilke? Which you could never have heard from me because even if X ever told me about it in sacred secrecy I would never, ever have told?

I trusted you!!

[caroljane]

Enough already. Get a room.

A room? Well there's the parlour of course... and rooms are always going vacant here in the Home, poor Grandpa McAloon isn't looking too well...I'd have to ask Matron.

Xray, we are supposed to be in this together. Now you are trying to palm me off on George and hog Plutocratus Anonymous all to yourself. Are they turning you into an Objectivist or something?

All aflutter,

Carol

I'm just hoping that you are not really a 300-pound trucker driver named Billy Bob who has a flair for language.

Ghs

Ghs

Ah, a sizeist! There's no restriction on personal liberty at the Poutine & Souvlaki Hut, you know. The rational stomachs will do whatever they want.

Anarchist, know thyself.

[George H. Smith]

I'm just hoping that you are not really a 300-pound truck driver named Billy Bob who has a flair for language.

Ghs

Ah, a sizeist! There's no restriction on personal liberty at the Poutine & Souvlaki Hut, you know. The rational stomachs will do whatever they want.

Anarchist, know thyself.

It is not the 300 pound part that worries me. Is the Billy Bob/truck driver part.

Ghs

[caroljane]

I'm just hoping that you are not really a 300-pound truck driver named Billy Bob who has a flair for language.

Ghs

Ah, a sizeist! There's no restriction on personal liberty at the Poutine & Souvlaki Hut, you know. The rational stomachs will do whatever they want.

Anarchist, know thyself.

It is not the 300 pound part that worries me. Is the Billy Bob/truck driver part.

Ghs

You're prejudiced against the transgendered?

Outragedly,

Wilhelmina Roberta

[Dennis Hardin]

Pardon me for interrupting this poignant little lovefest, but George asked me if I knew about any passages from Branden that dealt with death and grieving. I did find this:

Question: I feel my ability to love died when my partner died. How do I awaken that part of myself?

Answer:

Once again: the way out is through. If I try to bear the pain of my loss by tightening against it rather than relaxing into it, by repressing rather than surrendering to it, I keep it prisoner forever.

There is a life force that will bring us back, if we keep out of the way, if we let the process of recovery happen. And the way we allow the process to happen, as we keep stressing, is never to fight our feelings, and never to act on them blindly. Acknowledge them.

Often what we call “feeling dead emotionally” is better described as “being afraid to feel.” We shut down so as not to feel pain. At the same time we cut off the possibility of future joy.

We dread exposing ourselves ever again to the trauma we experienced at our first loss and so numb ourselves, saying it is because we cannot let go of the great love behind us.

A woman told us she had adored her husband so much that any future love was inconceivable. She wanted to talk about what a fine man he was but not about what the loss meant to her personally.

We placed her in front of an empty chair and asked her to imagine that her husband was sitting there. We asked her to talk to him. At first, she resisted. Slowly, with much encouragement, she spoke of how much she had loved him, then of how much she missed him, then of how angry she was at him for abandoning her. She spoke again of how much she loved and needed him, weeping deeply. “This pain is too much for me to bear.”

She came back. We took her through many similar exercises. We taught her to do them on her own at home. We taught her not to fear pain but to taste it, touch, embrace it until it had no power to paralyze her. We saw her face become softer, more alive. One day, she said, “I’m going on my first vacation alone. It’s scary. Anyway, I’m ready. Who knows what’s ahead?” Who indeed.

Nathaniel: A person once told me something that shocked me, hurt me, bewildered me, something that I have never been able to forget. “When a person we love dies, it is a tragedy, but it is also a gift, a gift that is very hard for us to recognize and accept. Suddenly new doors open, new possibilities emerge, and we are flung forward along a path we might never have found.” It was not easy for me to hear this, a year after Patrecia’s death.

Today, I know it is true.

What Love Asks Of Us

Nathaniel and Devers Branden

pp. 270-271

Again, my apologies for this boring detour from the prior detour from the thread detour.

We return you now to the salacious pre-foreplay banter.

[Brant Gaede]

Sorry everybody. I was busy in my room.

--Brant

too late to this party

[caroljane]

Sorry everybody. I was busy in my room.

--Brant

too late to this party

Hey Brant, this is the OL party. We never close.

[George H. Smith]

Again, my apologies for this boring detour from the prior detour from the thread detour.

We return you now to the salacious pre-foreplay banter.

Thanks for your concern, but I don't think the sparks even made it off the anvil on this one. Idle banter can be fun for a while, however.

Ghs