favonius18 Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Hi my name is Jen... obviously. I'm joining this group in an attempt to meet and interact with other individuals who value personal responsibility and individualism. Everyday I'm surrounded more and more by people who just believe what they're told without thinking anything through... it gets really draining. I read Atlas Shrugged this past summer, and LOVED the ideas presented. I hope I'll be able to learn and share ideas with everyone here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Jen,You look like a very attractive person both inside and out.I'm glad you loved Rand's work. (I do, too. And to be honest, I think some of her critics likewise. )Welcome to OL.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Welcome aboard. Looks like you’re into comparative religion, have you dipped into Joseph Campbell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Welcome to OL Jen:The Boondock Saints, Braveheart, Gladiator, add the Patriot [further down on your list] and you have a NY Yankees' Murderer's Row lineup!I just watched Boondock this weekend with the lady I was with. Great movie. Are you a student?Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
favonius18 Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 @Ninth Doctor: I've been into discussing Comparative Religion quite a bit so I'm familiar with Joseph Campbell, but I've never actually read any of his books. A friend I have is pretty big into Mithraism so I've been stuck talking about that in relation to Christianity a lot. @Selene: lol. The sequel to Boondocks just came out. I heard that it wasn't that great. I'll give it a go eventually but you can't go wrong with the first one! Yep, I'm a sophomore right now at the University at Buffalo studying history.Nice to meet you all,Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 @Ninth Doctor: I've been into discussing Comparative Religion quite a bit so I'm familiar with Joseph Campbell, but I've never actually read any of his books. A friend I have is pretty big into Mithraism so I've been stuck talking about that in relation to Christianity a lot. Power of Myth is a good starting point, but if you can find Transformations of Myth Through Time grab it. I videotaped it off air many years ago. There’s a whole lecture on Roman mystery cults. Parts of it were cut together to make Mythos, which is better produced but ruins the lectures with instrusive editing and obnoxious commentary by Susan Sarandon. Hero with a Thousand Faces is his most famous book, but the 4 volume Masks of God series delves deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Jen and 9th:Any truth to this accusation? "Gill accused Campbell of antisemitism.[44] Gill, who identified himself as a friend of Campbell's from the Century Association in New York City,[45] noted that he wrote the article in reaction to the enormous popularity of The Power of Myth series in 1988."http://www.jcf.org/Nice little website opening ...Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Any truth to this accusation? There’s only an abstract of the article available, so I can’t give a proper reply. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=3906AR comes in for a little bashing in these letters to the editor written in reply:http://www.nybooks.com/articles/3846I’ve never seen even a comment by him about AR, and he certainly was exposed to her via fans. I’ve read a lot of Campbell, and wouldn’t call him anti-semitic. However, if one points out that Judaism contrasts with Christianity and Islam in that its more tribal and exclusionary; Yahweh is the true god and Dagon or Ba’al are demons, we are the chosen people etc. there might be enough there to trigger a knee jerk cry of anti-semitism. I don’t know if that’s what this critic was talking about though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
favonius18 Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) I don't know how much this pertains to what you guys are talking about but my one Jewish prof made the point that anti-Semitism is a prejudice against a certain race/ethnicity. And Anti-Judaism is a prejudice against a religion. Therefore, he said, one can't really be anti-Semetic unless they're openly against the ethnicity of Jews. I don't know if Joseph Campbell was overtly critical of Judaism (I haven't read any of his books) or if the accusation was saying he was against the 'race' of Jews... Someone might not be the biggest fan of Judaism as a religion, but that doesn't necessarily make them anti-Semitic... Edited November 13, 2009 by Jen Hoppe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I don't know how much this pertains to what you guys are talking about but my one Jewish prof made the point that anti-Semitism is a prejudice against a certain race/ethnicity. And Anti-Judaism is a prejudice against a religion. Therefore, he said, one can't really be anti-Semetic unless they're openly against the ethnicity of Jews. I don't know if Joseph Campbell was overtly critical of Judaism (I haven't read any of his books) or if the accusation was saying he was against the 'race' of Jews... Someone might not be the biggest fan of Judaism as a religion, but that doesn't necessarily make them anti-Semitic...It's a distinction without a difference. Anti-Judaism would merely be a way to have and eat one's anti-Semitism by use of a smokescreen. Probably used by academics and self-hating Jews. Take a walk off campus and try to find it. --Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
favonius18 Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 I don't know how much this pertains to what you guys are talking about but my one Jewish prof made the point that anti-Semitism is a prejudice against a certain race/ethnicity. And Anti-Judaism is a prejudice against a religion. Therefore, he said, one can't really be anti-Semetic unless they're openly against the ethnicity of Jews. I don't know if Joseph Campbell was overtly critical of Judaism (I haven't read any of his books) or if the accusation was saying he was against the 'race' of Jews... Someone might not be the biggest fan of Judaism as a religion, but that doesn't necessarily make them anti-Semitic...It's a distinction without a difference. Anti-Judaism would merely be a way to have and eat one's anti-Semitism by use of a smokescreen. Probably used by academics and self-hating Jews. Take a walk off campus and try to find it. --BrantYou're probably right. I've been trying to figure out the whole anti-Semitism thing for a while now (the main idea or concept fueling the hatred) and I thought my prof made an interesting point that I'd never heard before... But like you said, in the real world it's probably not that realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 LOL, I don't hate Jews I hate their religion?? Well, seeing how your religion is the criteria for establishing your "jewishness" I'm not sure how this works. In other words, isn't the set of "jews who do not subscribe to the jewish religion" empty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 LOL, I don't hate Jews I hate their religion?? Well, seeing how your religion is the criteria for establishing your "jewishness" I'm not sure how this works. In other words, isn't the set of "jews who do not subscribe to the jewish religion" empty? No. --Brantperplexed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 LOL, I don't hate Jews I hate their religion?? Well, seeing how your religion is the criteria for establishing your "jewishness" I'm not sure how this works. In other words, isn't the set of "jews who do not subscribe to the jewish religion" empty? Consider the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazi Holocaust. The Inquisition didn’t target practicing Jews, it targeted “Conversos”, Jews that had converted to Catholicism, but had retained some Jewish customs sub rosa (e.g. not eating pork). The Nazis are a clearer example, the Nuremberg laws were concerned with parentage, not religious belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 The Nazis are a clearer example, the Nuremberg laws were concerned with parentage, not religious belief.So if your parents "were jews" then you are as well? But how to determine the "jewishness" of the parents then? This simply shifts the issue from you to your parents. There is no such thing as a "jewish race" however there is certainly a jewish culture/religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
favonius18 Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 The Nazis are a clearer example, the Nuremberg laws were concerned with parentage, not religious belief.So if your parents "were jews" then you are as well? But how to determine the "jewishness" of the parents then? This simply shifts the issue from you to your parents. There is no such thing as a "jewish race" however there is certainly a jewish culture/religion.Our whole first class was trying to determine who are Jews, and what is meant by the term 'Jewish'. It's not very easy to pin down. Some people view it as a religious categorization, while others a ethnic categorization. Like General Semanticist said, mostly on a whole, it's viewed as a religious/cultural term and can refer to anyone practicing Judaism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) The Nazis are a clearer example, the Nuremberg laws were concerned with parentage, not religious belief.So if your parents "were jews" then you are as well? But how to determine the "jewishness" of the parents then? This simply shifts the issue from you to your parents. There is no such thing as a "jewish race" however there is certainly a jewish culture/religion.Hitler's view was racist, to the statement "isn't the set of "jews who do not subscribe to the jewish religion" empty?" he'd say no. There was a legal framework in place to determine who was Jewish or not (or even partially so), it obliged people to trace their ancestry as far back as 1750 in some cases. Edited November 13, 2009 by Ninth Doctor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 That's it...I hate Jews!Prune juice....Papaya juice...Lemon juice....Adambitterly perplexed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfly Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 LOL, I don't hate Jews I hate their religion?? Well, seeing how your religion is the criteria for establishing your "jewishness" I'm not sure how this works. In other words, isn't the set of "jews who do not subscribe to the jewish religion" empty? According to that criterion people like Mendelssohn, Freud, Einstein and Rand were not jewish at all. That's not the common interpretation, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Hitler's view was racist, to the statement "isn't the set of "jews who do not subscribe to the jewish religion" empty?" he'd say no. There was a legal framework in place to determine who was Jewish or not (or even partially so), it obliged people to trace their ancestry as far back as 1750 in some cases.Oh I'm aware that Hitler was racist - I am trying to show that there is no basis for racism. The term 'race' is extremely vague and so open to such abuse, like "the jewish race". There is no known genetic basis for such a statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 According to that criterion people like Mendelssohn, Freud, Einstein and Rand were not jewish at all. That's not the common interpretation, I think.Well being uncommon does not make it less valid - it makes it ...uncommon. I don't know enough about the personal lives of these people but if they did not believe in the religion/culture of jews and lived their lives totally different then as far as I'm concerned they were not jews. I was born to a catholic mother and brought up as a catholic but around the age 13 I began drifting away from religion and now it is meaningless to me. So I am not a catholic but my mother was. It doesn't seem that complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfly Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) According to that criterion people like Mendelssohn, Freud, Einstein and Rand were not jewish at all. That's not the common interpretation, I think.Well being uncommon does not make it less valid - it makes it ...uncommon. I don't know enough about the personal lives of these people but if they did not believe in the religion/culture of jews and lived their lives totally different then as far as I'm concerned they were not jews. I was born to a catholic mother and brought up as a catholic but around the age 13 I began drifting away from religion and now it is meaningless to me. So I am not a catholic but my mother was. It doesn't seem that complicated.At least some of the people I mentioned as an example (if not all) called themselves jewish, and they should know... The racial angle is no nonsense, as jews do have common genetic traits, which is for example reflected in typically jewish diseases, such as the Tay-Sachs disease. As far as I know no such typical genetic traits can be found in catholics. Edited November 13, 2009 by Dragonfly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjohnson Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 At least some of the people I mentioned as an example (if not all) called themselves jewish, and they should know... The racial angle is no nonsense, as jews do have common genetic traits, which is for example reflected in typically jewish diseases, such as the Tay-Sachs disease. As far as I know no such typical genetic traits can be found in catholics.Well people are free to call themselves whatever they wish - that's irrelevant. Having some common gene traits is one thing but to say you belong to a different race is another. As I said the word 'race' is quite vague and unscientific.Today many scientists study human genotypic and phenotypic variation using concepts such as "population" and "clinal gradation". The academic consensus is that, while racial categories may be marked by sets of common phenotypic or genotypic traits, the popular idea of "race" is a social construct without base in scientific fact.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] Nonetheless, when divorced from its popular connotations, the concept of race may be useful. According to forensic anthropologist George W. Gill, blanket "race denial" not only contradicts biological evidence, but may stem from "politically motivated censorship" in the belief that "race promotes racism".[4]So it may have some use in anthropology but it has very little meaning in most contexts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9thdoctor Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) I don't know enough about the personal lives of these people but if they did not believe in the religion/culture of jews and lived their lives totally different then as far as I'm concerned they were not jews. We could go on and on about what the proper definition is, but when it came time to choose whom to pack onto the cattle cars to Dachau or Auschwitz, Hitlers view ruled. To historys most notorious anti-semite, Jewish meant a race.Felix Mendelssohn had Jewish grandparents (at least on his fathers side), so he was either a Jew or a Mischling (mongrel) depending on some other tests. He would have been subject to discrimination in Nazi Germany either way. Yet he was a practicing Lutheran, and so was his father I believe. BTW his paternal grandfather was Moses Mendelssohn, a philosopher who crossed swords with Kant, and Felix took a philosophy course taught by Hegel. Small world.Weve drifted off the topic of Joseph Campbell, I just want to add that in comparing and contrasting different religions he opened himself up to charges of denigrating one or the other. But that was his job.I havent seen it in a very long time, but I remember Nathaniel Brandens interview on CSPAN back in the late 80s, when Power of Myth was new. Brian Lamb asked him what his philosophy is now, he said respect the rights of others and follow your bliss, clearly a nod to JC. Edited November 13, 2009 by Ninth Doctor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonrobt Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) I don't know enough about the personal lives of these people but if they did not believe in the religion/culture of jews and lived their lives totally different then as far as I'm concerned they were not jews. We could go on and on about what the proper definition is, but when it came time to choose whom to pack onto the cattle cars to Dachau or Auschwitz, Hitler’s view ruled. To history’s most notorious anti-semite, Jewish meant a race.Felix Mendelssohn had Jewish grandparents (at least on his father’s side), so he was either a Jew or a Mischling (mongrel) depending on some other tests. He would have been subject to discrimination in Nazi Germany either way. Yet he was a practicing Lutheran, and so was his father I believe. BTW his paternal grandfather was Moses Mendelssohn, a philosopher who crossed swords with Kant, and Felix took a philosophy course taught by Hegel. Small world.We’ve drifted off the topic of Joseph Campbell, I just want to add that in comparing and contrasting different religions he opened himself up to charges of denigrating one or the other. But that was his job.I haven’t seen it in a very long time, but I remember Nathaniel Branden’s interview on CSPAN back in the late ‘80s, when Power of Myth was new. Brian Lamb asked him what his philosophy is now, he said “respect the rights of others and follow your bliss”, clearly a nod to JC.http://www.nathanielbranden.com/ayn/ayn01.htmlhttp://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/8219-1 Edited November 14, 2009 by anonrobt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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