Barbara Branden Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Ba'al: "You expressed a disgust toward violence."I did not. I clearly said my objection was to "reveling in death and the infliction of agony." I do not know what could be more specific than that. Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbara Branden Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Brant: "Doing (some) ostensibly bad things in war might be justified for tactical, even strategic considerations, though no examples float to mind, but never out of revenge or the mere sake of doing them. I am quite capable of operating within the context of the moral necessity of torture even if the personal consequence is my own partial or complete destruction. Sort of like throwing oneself on a grenade with slo-mo but inevitable consequences. But for revenge? For that? No. Can't do that. No one should. Maybe in a strictly personal, civilian context. Not out of a war policy. Certainly not as a matter of state, as in Argentina in the 1980s. Torture, yes or no, is not a basic moral consideration. In some contexts it would be immoral not to torture if you are capable of doing that. To torture because it is the moral thing to do is one thing. To torture only because it's your job is another. To torture because you like it and it's gratuitous is yet another. There are other considerations, of course, but they don't cut closer to the bone than these."Brant, if I understand you -- and I think I do-- I don't disagree. Barbara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfonso Jones Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I thought reveling in death and the infliction of agony was the province of terrorists and serial killers. I am sickened to see it here.Barbara,Thank you. I allowed this thread to progress so people could vent. The fact that those terrorists are getting the possibility of a trial with individual rights that they openly spit on, while they revel in the US deaths they have inflicted, makes me want to spit bile. They should be interrogated, then executed, then forgotten.But on our side, once again I see a group of human beings feeding off of the dark side of each other and some descending into Nazis. This site is not a meeting place for Nazis, even Nazis using camouflage.This crap is garbage and it is now where it belongs.MichaelWell done, Michael. This notion of rejoicing at the suffering/agony of one's enemies or opponents is repellent. Might one have to inflict suffering/agony - - - of course! What does one expect to happen when a bomb is dropped, etc.? And the bombs are sometimes necessary. But the rejoicing - I don't understand it and can't sympathize with the impulse.Bill P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Well done, Michael. This notion of rejoicing at the suffering/agony of one's enemies or opponents is repellent. Might one have to inflict suffering/agony - - - of course! What does one expect to happen when a bomb is dropped, etc.? And the bombs are sometimes necessary. But the rejoicing - I don't understand it and can't sympathize with the impulse.Bill PGood triumphs over evil. Rejoice! Besides, revenge is sweet.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfonso Jones Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Well done, Michael. This notion of rejoicing at the suffering/agony of one's enemies or opponents is repellent. Might one have to inflict suffering/agony - - - of course! What does one expect to happen when a bomb is dropped, etc.? And the bombs are sometimes necessary. But the rejoicing - I don't understand it and can't sympathize with the impulse.Bill PGood triumphs over evil. Rejoice! Besides, revenge is sweet.Ba'al ChatzafI can rejoice in good triumphing over evil without having to rejoice about the suffering that happens as part of that process.Bill P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Bill,I can understand an outburst of anger. We all do it. I can understand blind spots. We all have them. I can even understand Asperger's. It happens.But I have no idea what drives a man to alienate himself from his own allies by preaching suffering and death as ethically good and pleasurable to contemplate—and when not alienating people on his side, leading the vast majority of people to conclude that he is a crackpot not to be taken seriously.This is not Asperger's as I have learned it, although I admit that Sean (Kat's son, my step-son), who has an atypical form of Asperger's, has had a fascination with morbid things. That has been an item of concern, but recently he seems to be growing out of it.I learned in Narcotics Anonymous that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. This is true for everybody, but especially addicts.So I wonder if taking great pleasure in suffering and death and preaching this over and over—with the insinuation that those who do not do likewise are somehow appeasing lethal enemies or are blind—is a form of addiction...The result in a civilized context is always outrage. It always will be. Preachers of human extermination aren't stupid so they know this. I wonder if this outrage gives the preacher some kind of high...Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfonso Jones Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Bill,I can understand an outburst of anger. We all do it. I can understand blind spots. We all have them. I can even understand Asperger's. It happens.But I have no idea what drives a man to alienate himself from his own allies by preaching suffering and death as ethically good and pleasurable to contemplate—and when not alienating people on his side, leading the vast majority of people to conclude that he is a crackpot not to be taken seriously.This is not Asperger's as I have learned it, although I admit that Sean (Kat's son, my step-son), who has an atypical form of Asperger's, has had a fascination with morbid things. That has been an item of concern, but recently he seems to be growing out of it.I learned in Narcotics Anonymous that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. This is true for everybody, but especially addicts.So I wonder if taking great pleasure in suffering and death and preaching this over and over—with the insinuation that those who do not do likewise are somehow appeasing lethal enemies or are blind—is a form of addiction...The result in a civilized context is always outrage. It always will be. Preachers of human extermination aren't stupid so they know this. I wonder if this outrage gives the preacher some kind of high...MichaelMichael - I agree with that. In fact, I have often said that when one is not "righteously indignant" about some things, then one has lost a part of oneself. That of course is not the same as rejoicing at the suffering and death of humans, rejoicing the more when the suffering is worse.Bill P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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