AR and "the facts of life" - question to BB

[Ellen Stuttle]

I blip in briefly because of something Barbara said on the AR and humor thread about the irrelevance of criticizing Rand's novels because of the lack of any mention of birth-control methods. Although I'd agree that the details needn't have been specified, and would have been out of place in terms of style, this touches on a problem I had from my first reading of Atlas (age 18 1/2) and in my subesequent readings both of Atlas and of her other fiction works: the lack of any seeming awareness even that sex and procreation are biologically linked, as if none of her characters knew what's colloquially called "the facts of life."

I was troubled first time I read Atlas and every time thereafter by Dagny's apparent ignorance of the realities of sex, by her not having been curious enough to find out -- and this a girl who was scientifically inclined and was studying engineering. There are books from which she could have learned if she felt reticent about asking either or both of her parents. It's her total obliviousness which just didn't square with me at all. And remember, this book was written in the days before contraceptives were on the public market, and before legal abortion. So what would have happened if Dagny had gotten pregnant? Was she too out of it on the subject to give thought to this? I could not, and to this day can't, imagine myself being so colossally ignorant as Dagny was portrayed as being in the scene wherein she loses her virginity to Francisco. Ok, no need to mention that Francisco would have been prepared, since (as is made clear from textual details) he'd been anticipating the act. It's the presentation of Dagny as just not curious on the issue prior to that which I found unreal and unappealing.

This brings up a general question which I find odd about the whole issue of Rand and sex. Did she ever talk with you, Barbara, woman to woman, about such a reality as the menstrual cycle? Or did she consider that an unmentionable, maybe an unfortunate feature of having a woman's body which wasn't to be spoken of?

I once asked Nathaniel, re AR's post-Atlas crisis, if menopause might have been part of her general funk. She was at that age. I asked, in essence -- haven't time to find the exact words -- Was she menopausal? Could that have been part of her depression? He said (I'm pretty sure I'm correct in remembering what he answered; I'm sure I'm at least correct as to the brevity and the form of the answer), "I don't know. I hope not." But how could he not have known? Did she never talk with him about this? (Again, I can't imagine myself not talking with my male partner about the subject -- Larry and I talked about it often and in detail!)

Ellen

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[Barbara Branden]

Ellen, I'm still not getting the problem. I've read dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of novels written around the time Atlas was written, and I can't recall one of them that had the heroine thinking or talking about birth control. I grant the possibility that I'm forgetting that some of them did, but I'm quite certain that most did not. And I can't recall a single criticism of them for omitting that issue.

Surely it doesn't follow that Dagny was colossaly ignorant aboout sex simply because we aren't spefically told what she did about birth control. We don't know what she thought about anthropology, or the medical profession, or the Civil War -- all important subjects, but totally irrelevant to Atlas Shrugged -- and we have no reason to think that because we don't know, that means she was ignorant about such subjects. We don't see her brushing her teeth or having a yearly mnedical checkup or dealing with a bad headache or her monthly period or hiring a secretary or taking out the trash -- and why in the world should we see that? And why would we assume that because we don't see those things, it means she didn't do them or was ignorant of their importance?

In view of the above, I don't understand why you say that Dagny was apparently ignorant of the realities of sex, and that she seemingly lacked any awareness even that sex and procreation are biologically linked. We know that she was an intelligent and educated woman; therefore, we assume -- without having to be told -- that she took regular baths, had regular medical checkups, hired secretaries, ate sensibly, and practiced birth control. Why do we have to see her doing these things or discussing them? They go without saying. And what have any of them got to do with the theme or plot of Atlas? Ir's important to remember Rand's view of a novel: that the writer includes only that which is necessary for plot, theme, and characterizations -- and to my mind, that excludes showing Dagny practicing or discussing birth control.

It's true that Rand was rather shy about discussing sex with friends (believe it or not), except rather theoretically. I'd guess that her Russian upbringing made that almost inevitable, and also the inhibitions of most Americans on the subject in those days. She certainly never discussed it in anything like the graphic terms that are used today. And I would never have initiated anything like a graphic discussion with her, any more than I would have with my mother, who, despite being very modern for her time, would have fainted dead away at the prospect.

And no, she never spoke to me about menopause. I doubt very much, however, that it was responsible for her depression. There were too many other reasons for her to be depressed -- the achievement through Atlas of her purpose in life since childhood, to depict her concept of the ideal man, which left her floundering and purposeless at a relatively young age, the appalling critical reception of Atlas and the absence of any intelligent defense; the severe problems in her relationship with Nathaniel, her growing sense that the American culture was more corrupt than she had imagined. Besides, she was in those years a very healthy, vigorous woman, whom I would guess probably sailed through menopause rather easily; I never saw in her any of the unpleasant symptoms one associates with a difficult menopause. And I'm quite sure that had she been suffering, she would have told me about it.

Barbara

[Ellen Stuttle]

I don't understand why you say that Dagny was apparently ignorant of the realities of sex, and that she seemingly lacked any awareness even that sex and procreation are biologically linked.

Barbara, re-read the scene? She's surprised that she'd even have interest in sex. I'd been thinking about an interest therein, and fantasizing, for a good three years before her sixteen years of age by the time she reached that forest glade.

It's true that Rand was rather shy about discussing sex with friends (believe it or not), except rather theoretically.  I'd guess that her Russian upbringing made that almost inevitable, and also the inhibitions of most Americans on the subject in those days.

I expected that answer. Fits with the naivety of someone who -- at my current age -- could have written what she did in her journal entries re her relationship with Nathaniel.

And no, she never spoke to me about menopause.

Again, I expected that answer.

I doubt very much, however, that it was responsible for her depression.

I didn't say "responsible for." I asked if it "might have been part of her general funk." So neither of you -- you or NB --even knows when she went through menopause. I'm afraid I do find this odd and very indicative of how much "in the sky" the whole affair with Nathaniel was.

Btw, I, too, when I reached those years was "a very healthy, vigorous woman," indeed, a woman who had a past of regular exercise, including having been a skilled equestrienne, which she didn't have. But I didn't "[sail] through menopause rather easily," nor did I ever have an easy time of it with the particulars of the monthly occurrence prior to that stretch.

Thanks for the reply, though I seem to have angered you with the question. Your answer tells me something I've always wondered about in regard to whether or not she spoke of the subject. I expect she'd have considered it, as I indicated she might, "unmentionable."

Ellen

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[Charles R. Anderson]

Ellen,

Young people develop an interest in sexual matters over a very wide range of ages. I have a friend who had romantic relationships with girls in the 1st grade and who had sexual relationships at a very early age. On the other hand, there are people who discover an interest in sex in their 20s. A fair number of teenagers simply have their minds on developing in other ways than sexually. So if Dagny is pictured as being behind the curve you were on, she was still well before it relative to many other teenagers. As one who was behind your curve or even Dagny's, I can tell you that this does not mean that one does not eventually catch up or even surpass the knowledge of many of the early starters.

[Robert Jones]

Ellen: Please consider the context of exactly when "Atlas Shrugged" was published, in 1957. For its time, it was rather -- please forgive the pun-- randy, as was "The Fountainhead."

Also, in over-analysing Rand, it is possible to lsoe sight she was a Romantic, not a Naturalist (although she did from time to time, employ Naturalistic description in her novels, esp. "The Fountainhead" in her description of the town of Stanton, etc.). She held an especial disdain for the laundry-list making of journalistic approaches to the novel.

Even in a Naturalist's novel, descriptions of the characters' sex lives are better when dealing with their romantic exploits rather than the minutiae of their workaday sexual history. This is why Sinclair Lewis's novel "Dodsworth" seems more modern than the more sexually graphic "Ann Vickers." In the former, more old-fashioned "boudoir" scenes make up the entirety of its sexual content, albeit frankly discussed; in the latter, Lewis seems to almost catalogue Ann's sexual contacts, her menstruation is obliquely mentioned and the reasons for her abortion are discussed. "Vickers" comes off feeling not so much alluring as clinical, which is why "Dodsworth" is remembered as one of Lewis's best novels, and "Ann Vickers" is regarded as missing the mark.

Thank God Ayn Rand did not get "clinical" in Atlas Shrugged!

[Ellen Stuttle]

Just a word about this thread: There was a lot more of it, but the rest was lost in the hacker attack. I was sad about the loss, since I thought the off-the-cuff between Barbara and me was maybe the most interesting we've ever had regarding Ayn's sexual development and other details of her childhood. But the whole thing was a spontaneous conversation the free flow of which would vanish in trying to reconstruct it.

My problem with the forest-glade scene, Charles and Robert, isn't that Rand didn't include clinical details but that Dagny is presented in a way which I found, and continue to find, disconcertingly non-matching her general characterization. I think what Rand did was to amalgamate her own early development into Dagny's story -- but Dagny's childhood is otherwise presented as having been quite different from Ayn's. The scene doesn't add up right in my feeling of characterological coherence.

Ellen

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