Queen Victoria on Solo

[Ellen Stuttle]

Ellen,

I only asked about the importance of Weiss because, according to him, we all are supposed to be feeling threatened by him. Look at the post above Perigo's that I quoted. He especially mentioned you.

I guess that whatever he said will remain a mystery. The link produces "access denied." I checked the website and found that the thread has disappeared from the "recent posts" list, though there is a listing of it in the "recently accessed" sidebar. But upon clicking the listing in the sidebar, again I got "access denied." Interesting.

Ellen

___

[Dragonfly]

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Victor Pross has been removed from Solo, and all his posts have also been removed (see the thread "plagiarism" on Solo). I see that Victor has now registered with OL. Perhaps he can tell us himself what all the fuss is about? I must have missed it between all those car wrecks...

[Rich Engle]

Eh, they're all busy whuppin' up on Robert C. now. It's like they're talking about a different person- the last thing I've ever gotten off of his posts are meanness, aggression. He just calls 'em like he sees 'em.

I'm not sure if it was even worth it to ask L. Perigo to apologize, but he gets marks for giving the little love-tap.

And, I believe it is correct that Penelope Prudence remains MIA or at least down to mere lurking.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Victor Pross has been removed from Solo, and all his posts have also been removed (see the thread "plagiarism" on Solo). I see that Victor has now registered with OL. Perhaps he can tell us himself what all the fuss is about? I must have missed it between all those car wrecks...

Victor Pross has been removed and all his posts likewise??!! What did he plagiarize? I'm several days behind with noticing what's been going on there. I thought that all he'd done was pick up some quotes on the subject of "integration" without identifying them as quotes.

I noticed that he's registered here. But that's puzzling, considering that he claims to be able to smell bad 'uns right off from their writing, and to have recognized both Brandens long ago and MSK upon reading a few of his posts as being bad 'uns. So why did Victor sign on here? I'd think the stench would be too much for his olfactories.

Ellen

___

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Ellen,

Let's go into gossip mode. Here what happened as I understand it.

Victor became intoxicated with the mudslinging air at SLOP (and that is not such a harsh criticism at it seems as I once suffered from the same malady before formally eschewing it). As Phil Coates was doing his thing defending Chris Sciabarra over there, all those side issues kept popping up, including "integration."

In an act of gross carelessness, Victor went on the site, The Importance of Philosophy, and copy pasted their text on integration in a post to Phil without citing the source. I don't know if he was aware that the site was written by Joe Rowlands and Jeff Landauer.

Victor also started actually believing that KASS meant something in reality about defending his own views in strong language, so he felt no compunction about disagreeing like that with Quintana (about something or the other). Quintana got royally ticked and later discovered the IOP connection (probably he was advised by someone from RoR) and he started a campaign hollering "plagiarism."

Technically, I suppose you could call it plagiarism, but I don't think an artist of Pross's abilities needs to plagiarize anything. However, the charge of plagiarism is not good for an established artist and I personally do not think it is correct. He simply screwed up big time. Merely changing the post and adding the source would have cleared up everything.

What the SLOPPERS wanted however was a circus, so there was mention of the "crime" of plagiarism, the morality of honesty, yada yada yada. They demanded a public apology, which Victor did give, sort of. If I remember the post correctly, he did not apologize for committing plagiarism per se, but for screwing up (and anyway, making it seem like it was all Phil's fault for getting him so wound up).

Not content with that, Quintana wanted humiliation, so up went an article wagging his finger against those who commit plagiarism, stating that SLOP did not have an official policy against it before then. (On this planet, you actually don't need to formulate an official policy against crime, or draw up an official policy promising to observe the law; those things are presumed, but that is another issue.)

Victor balked at being branded as a plagiarist so he asked to have all his posts removed. Not only were they removed, so were the posts of all other posters in threads he started as the entire threads were removed. That is why you cannot follow the link.

Now here is my take on this. If he had plagiarized Perigo, a backstage slap on the wrist probably would have happened, BUT HE COPIED THE TEXT OF JOE ROWLANDS WITHOUT GIVING HIM CREDIT!!!!! ON SLOP!!!!!

//;-))

Dayaamm!

After both Rowlands and Perigo have been calling each other thieves ever since the split of SoloHQ, the mental images of what went on in the wings are very funny to ponder...

About Victor's discomfort with OL, I will let him speak for himself if he ever decides to. I am tempted to pre-forgive him for all the nasty comments just because of the "bull-in-a-china-shop" ruckus he made. It was very entertaining...

Michael

[L W HALL]

As with a lot of people I read, I found myself both agreeing and disagreeing with Victor, but if someone believes they have made a mistake all they can do is admit to and rectify it as much as possible then move on.

Victor has a lot of good things to say and his artwork is super as far as I am concerned. If he chooses to post on here I would welcome his input even if I don't always agree with it.

L W

[Victor Pross]

Hello, Victor Pross here.

I can see that my name precedes me here at OL. I also see that I have caused a lot of wonderment as to why I would register here—especially after I have previously hurled mud. [i may have a lot of es’plain’ to do, in fact.]

After registering, I received a rather detailed and friendly email from Michael--to which I have replied. I said that I would like the opportunity to more fully explain myself, here at Objectivist Living, not only about that single issue of mud slinging—but also some other gossip hot topics.

I will do my best to also explain why I would register here at all!

I hope that I, the Frankenstein monster, will be given a hearing HERE…unlike the villagers at SOLO.

This first post is merely a first time greeting...

-Victor-

[edit] questions are more than welcomed...on any matter

--------------

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Victor,

Got any e-mails to publish without the owner's consent?

//;-))

(Just joking...)

Michael

[Victor Pross]

In my forthcoming "statement," I will be more than happy to attribute quotes to the rightful person. [in some cases, I wouldn't want to take credit for it--believe me]. [-X

[Ellen Stuttle]

I hope that I, the Frankenstein monster, will be given a hearing HERE…unlike the villagers at SOLO.  

I expect that you will be given a hearing, Victor; I'd even expect a fairly fair one. But I will say for the record that as I saw your behavior there, you were one of villagers. You claimed to have had a negative opinion of the Brandens from early on in your acquaintance with their writing; to have formed a comparably rapid negative opinion of MSK (thus to be lined up with the correct side in opinion from the standpoint of the list culture there); you were part of the berating of Phil, and of the praising of what Penelope wrote; and you jumped right in challenging "Mark" when "anti-Semite" charges were leveled by Weiss. For you now to sign up here, and to refer to them as "the villagers," is suspect in my books.

Ellen

___

[Victor Pross]

Hello Ellen,

No need to run down the inventory of my activities at SOLO before my statement is made, which I said is still forthcoming. I feel bad enough. Mind you, I can say this: the issues you cite don’t come in one glob. You cite many different—and unrelated--things. Some of the things said, I deeply regret--other things I said, I still stand by. But it’s only recently that I feel MYSELF in the part of the Frankenstein monster over an issue that has been whacked way out of proportion.

In regards to being a ‘villager’ with torch in hand, I don’t deny it. I was, to quote Michael [and I BETTER quote him] intoxicated in the TRIBAL atmosphere of SOLO. [However, I don’t like ‘the devil made me do it' excuses]. Your suspicion is duly noted and understood.

Victor

[Victor Pross]

One thing I want to say right now: I joined Objectivist Living after an evening’s reflection. I wanted to join up in order to recant many previous things thought and said [those things still to be indicated] but mostly this: I am a creative person, and I do want to be in an atmosphere where that is shared and fostered. That’s why I joined SOLO in the first place. Being a creative person, I love ideas--not debates.

However, my eyes have been open to the backstabbers, pettiness, and malice that goes on--even in the world of Objectivism. That’s a crushing disappointment. Really, the fact of the matter is I detest all of that. I forgot that about myself. But I’m restored.

Victor

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

For the record, OL's purpose is not to be a place for SLOPPY leftovers, nor is there any great value to be obtained from being a haven to people who didn't manage to fit in on a hostile site like SLOP. People come here because they are interested in Objectivist ideas and they hold their own mind as sacred, even above Rand's.

They honor themselves as they honor others - particularly through civility - because thinking for oneself is the most sacred act a human being can do.

I wrote Victor a friendly, but very objective, e-mail after he registered here. I saw value in him. I looked at his website and saw his work. My judgment is that anyone who can do that with as much talent and humor as he does has to have a playful, friendly and intelligent spirit underneath.

Humor is the giveaway for Objectivists. Those who only know how to aggressively mock others are likely to be the obnoxious types who live for put-downs and public denunciations. A sign of a good spirit is to see if a person knows how to laugh with irreverence but without spite.

Victor's caricatures are wonderful in that respect.

I might be wrong and Victor can certainly speak for himself. My opinion is that he slipped on a mental banana peel and landed hard on his butt. It hurt. Now he wants to get up.

God knows, I've done it enough. Anyway, that's why I did what I did.

As for questioning his motives, etc. I think anyone who harbors any doubt at all should do it as clearly and objectively as Ellen did - either online or off. That's part of getting up.

(The hard part about OL, though, is that there is no group to convince of anything. There are only individual people - some as different as night and day.)

Michael

[Victor Pross]

Michael: 'Humor is the giveaway for Objectivists. Those who only know how to aggressively mock others are likely to be the obnoxious types who live for put-downs and public denunciations. A sign of a good spirit is to see if a person knows how to laugh with irreverence but without spite.

Victor's caricatures are wonderful in that respect.

I might be wrong and Victor can certainly speak for himself.'

I'm happy to say you have me pigeon-holed here, gladly. I am a 'Toys are us kid' still. Irreverence is under-rated, I think.

Yes, as I said in one of those above posts...I am open to questions--especially to answer to those who may be 'shy' of me.

Victor

[gary williams]

They honor themselves as they honor others - particularly through civility

Oh Shit! I'm screwed!

Humor is the giveaway for Objectivists. Those who only know how to aggressively mock others are likely to be the obnoxious types who live for put-downs and public denunciations. A sign of a good spirit is to see if a person knows how to laugh with irreverence but without spite.

Whewwwww!!!! Maybe there is hope for me after all!!!!!!!

Mr. Pross,

I am watching you.

You should know a couple of things.

First, I am not an Objectivist. (Boo.....Hiss!!!)

Second, I am not an idiot.

Third, I do not know of any OL'ers who are idiots.

Fourth, My OL-factory glands work perfectly....I will tell you what stinks!

It is important that you understand these facts clearly!

I am not an Objectivist, which means that I do not hold myself to the same standard of civility that the fine Objectivist here do! But, Objectivists are my kind of people. OL'ers are my people. These people here would be welcome in my home anytime. I love them. I love what they stand for; I love their thinking, their passion, their honesty, their integrity, their consistancy.

Remember that.

You have not demonstrated these qualities elsewhere.

You have a reputation that is......unsettled.

You have been anti-Branden.

You have been anti OL.

You have been accused of plagiarism.

You have been said to be many things.......unpleasant.

You said,

I joined Objectivist Living after an evening’s reflection.

One evening?

Really?

One?

I will be honest. I am dubious to your presence here.

I do not trust you.

Blame that on my non-Objectivist objective slant.

I am not an Objectivist, but these people, these fine people here are my friends. I take that friendship very seriously. I love their honesty. Our standards are pretty much the same. Harm them, make your presence here a joke, or lie and bring disgrace to this site and I will hound you to the ends of the Earth.

I do not see you as Frankenstein's monster. But I do see your reputation as a monster created by you, a brilliant Frankenstein.

I am watching you.

You may disagree with anyone.

You may disagree with persons named Branden.

You may fight with fire your opponents in debate.

But remember where you are.

You are at a place called Objectivist Living.

This is not the place you came from.

Remember that.

And remember this...

Here, at Objectivist Living, everyone is welcome, but

Standards are high,

Respect is earned.

Remember these things always.

Other than that -

Welcome!

Nice to meet you -

Anything pithy to add to our little get-together?

And, by the way..........Did you know that MSK is a SADDAMITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who would'a thunk it? That damn Toxic Slug is always getting into trouble!

gw

[Victor Pross]

An Open letter to Diana on the charges of Plagiarism:

I have been charged of plagiarism. Morally, what are we to make of a person who commits such an act? Could there ever be such a thing as mediating circumstances? Does context matter? Are all the facts known?

Let me explore that in this letter.

To set the exact context: I did NOT write an essay-type post whereby I lifted passages from an un-credited author—hoping to escape detection so as to secure an unearned value. It was during a heated give-and-take of bantering and even then within a highly specific context. Does this matter?

What was I after? Money and prestige and passing grades on tests are the usual motives of the plagiarist. Well, that leaves me out. In my case, it was during a heated exchange whereby verbal and emotional hand grades were being tossed back and forth. High in the battle mode, I became charged over a particularly succinct point that a poster made about “integration” --referring to someone else who was accused of defaulting on this.

So, in a moment of self-righteous “that’s right!” type of attitude, I set out to “teach” this “failing integrator” what it is all about. (Of course, I knew this person knows what Objectivist integration is—but it was merely a matter of rancorous sarcasm on my part).

Now, my passion taking the lead, my mind was in auto pilot---knowing full well that everybody on an Objectivist site knows that “mental integration” is an Ayn Rand intellectual achievement. [it's also a subject matter in general philsophy.] But being in an impassioned hurry, did I want to type out a barrage of sentences when I want to get my smarmy post off in a flash!? Ah, this takes time! Of course, it wasn’t done with the intention of taking credit for a philosophical achievement away from a person who needs no introduction. I merely wanted to shove it in the person's face: INTEGRATE! I wanted to say "Look at this!" ---NOT 'hey, I wrote that. I'm soooooo smart!'

Any garden variety Objectivst can emit the contents of integration in whatever combinations of words they choose—but everybody knows that the essential intellectual content of what “integration” means is Ayn Rand’s idea. I thought that could be taken for granted. Look, if you were to ask me what “integration” means while standing on one foot, I could—extemporaneously---tell you exactly in a snap.

You know what? Peikoff himself would say, “Yes, that’s a perfect description.” The fact of the matter is that I’m extremely well versed in Objectivism. I know what integration is, and if I wanted to write in essay form, I could do it. Okay?

Diana, do you mean to tell me that the student who commits plagiarism--in order to gain an unearned value, a higher grade---is similar to my stupid expedient action? Do you mean to tell me that the author of a book, who commits plagiarism in order to garner an unearned prestige and royalty payments, is exactly on par with my action? Are you going to say that there is no distinguishable difference in terms of morality—if not technicality?

Why, for the love of God, would I ask for permission to quote you in an actual article (one being written as a paid professional) versus some bullshit fleeting back-and-forth posts? The only thing I was looking for was a fast snip on integration to be discharged with speed and expediency--that, and a smarmy self-congratulatory smile for showing that “non-integrator poster.” Got it?

I wasn’t looking for prestige or money or grades--or any unearned benefit. I acted in idiot haste—that’s all. I have nothing new to say about integration and I don’t claim it as my own. I know that everybody on an Objectivist site knows about integration---and knows its ultimate source. [What? Do you think I wanted people to think that the whole thing came from my brain]?

Now, I have made my points. I have set the context. I have set the context AND I have explained a “moral qualifier” from a “technical case of actual plagiarism” whereby the motives that usually drive one to commit such an offence were completely lacking where I was concerned.

As I said elsewhere, I have become a Frankenstein monster chased down by villagers over an issue that has been whacked way out of proportion. This whole thing has become bloody ridiculous!

If anything, I deserve to be reprehended for a gross oversight and idiot negligence. Instead, what I encountered at SOLO was gleeful, lecherous lynch mob mentalities who want to believe the worse, Diana. Why? Because it’s so much more fun—don’t you know—to run someone in the mud, to morally pelt one on the head—especially if you already dislike the person! Oh, what fun it is to disguise feelings of malice under the guise of indignation.

You know, Diana, I’m old enough (and wise enough) to realize this: a person works hard to achieve a position and reputation in life. And the malice of one man---who has considerable sway, can seriously damage another person. All you need to do is to hurl charges and all the sycophants come out from the cracks demanding the details and public disgrace. That was the atmosphere I found at SOLO. And that this person took particular pleasure at the prospect of flaunting whatever petty power he has invested in him--merely to “show that Pross asshole”---that he dislikes anyway, who the boss is around here!”

Malice, Diana, it’s as old as humanity itself.

Ah, this Jason person. As a professional caricature artist, this makes him a grotesque caricature of the archetypical “asshole" variety. As a caricature, he is found in any standard Hollywood movie: the quintessential BROWN-NOSER.

You know, I’m a creative person. I write and I paint. In fact, I’m illustrating and writing my first novel. I honor and rely on a good reputation in the art community. It’s my life. And to have it tarnished...but becuase of the emotional exhustion of one man. Bullshit, Diana, pure malice spewed bullshit.

Now, if your mind grasps my points—even if there is a spot within you that realizes that perhaps this issue has gone overboard ---I know, my dear philosopher in the making, there’s no way on this Godless earth that you will stand up and say: “You make some valid points, Victor, and it shouldn’t have come to this.” ---No way, man. You know why? Because you have worked hard and long to be recognized at SOLO as a person worthy of esteem—you have made friends there! And I don’t fault that, Diana, you deserve it.

So even if you grasp my points, why voice it? What would be the point? Justice? No, that’s just a word one uses. It sounds pretty, doesn’t it? Justice! This is what must be looked at: What is the cost/benefit analysis here?

Let me ask you this: what do you make morally of a man who is driven—not by a calling of justice, but malice—even if he has the grace of being technically in the right. Not content with my posted apology--Jason Quintana wanted humiliation and to damage my reputation. In private emails, he admitted his ill will---openly. This is the type of man he is.

Do you see how I made a *stupid* MISTAKE. I told you it was an expedient action! There is contrary evidence to indicate my honesty. I presented that to you--as well as Lindsay. It was ignored.

By the way, I should let you know that Lindsay practically begged me to stay on with SOLO. Now that I told him to shove it where the sun doesn’t shine, I can safely be considered a moral troll. That’s what his “explanation” was all about. Such self-serving nonsense.

*****

TO CONCLUDE: This whole thing is so goddamn fucking stupid and mean-spirited, so small-minded and self-righteous. I’m ashamed of myself for getting caught in the insipid SOLO war words—not cutting and pasting. That’s what I reproach myself over, thank you very much.

You see, I want everybody to know—at both Objectivist Living and Solo—that prior to all of this—I asked your permission to quote a single line from you for an article. Does this not account for something as an indicator of my person? You see, the reason why I’m hammering that single point home is because: it is a striking and crucial factor as an indicator of where I truly stand on the issue of plagiarism.

If one gets published in a professional magazine in which one receives payment, one ought to be exacting to moral and legal standards. Believe me, I know that. In professional writings, I’m careful to cite sources. You saw that in action—first-hand. This alone should exonerate me. Of course, those individuals who prefer to fester in their ill--will be impervious to context and facts…as they are to justice. Nevermind me asking to quote you. Ignore that!

Yes, yes, no kidding: cite your sources in professional publications. Don’t cheat on that test to get an A! But a bull-shit website of back-and-forth bantering of overgrown spewing children? Especially when the content in question is known in advance by one and all? For this, I deserve this hail storm of venom? You are telling me that Jason and Lindsay are really acting on the principle of fairness, level-headiness and justice—without the slightest trace of malice and over-reacting rancor? Give me a freaking break!

**

[Victor Pross]

Mr. Gary Williams,

I don’t mind if you watch me, as you say. I do hope that you take the time to read my open letter to Diana.

And I have never been called a “brilliant Frankenstein.” I’ll take it as a compliment.

Regards,

Victor

8-[

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Victor,

I'm confused. Why on earth is your open letter addressed to Hsieh? Did she accuse you of plagiarism? (I hope you didn't send her many e-mails...)

You wrote an interesting observation.

This whole thing [h]as become bloody ridiculous.

Instead of trying to teach integration to Phil, did you ever think of maybe having sex with him? It might have worked out better...

Michael

[Victor Pross]

Michael, I’m all so very new to flame wars and internet posting, and I certainly could not have foreseen the inconsequential and hatful acrimony of being attacked in this manner—especially by people who carry the banner of Objectivism.

Truly, if this doesn’t turn my universe upside down, it’ll be an intellectual/emotional achievement so great that it alone should exonerate me of the sin of plagiarism. I went to SOLO to escape irrationality!

But I don’t want to make any other mistakes, that’s for sure. Should I have sex with Phil? If it spares me from any further attacks from posturing mediocrities that represent a Rand villain --in caricature form to boot—I’ll buy Phil some flowers and chocolates.

[Victor Pross]

Jason the Mason answers to my friend who stood up for me. Jason wrote [in part:]

“Wayne, I believe that Victor did make a momentary lapse of judgment. And it is something that he does quite often in his internet communications!! In fact it seems as though it happens every time he posts! One minute he's running around in threads denouncing people for this and that and then the next minute he's making petty excuses for copying copyrighted material! One day he's a hardcore SOLOist and ARI loyalist and then a few minutes later he's over at www.objectivistliving.com making friends with MSK! He needs to get the hell away from his keyboard until he's thinking clearly!”

Did you get that? I need to get my thinking cleared up. Of course, Jason needs to learn about the art of non-contradictory identification. In one part of this post, he agrees with Wayne: “I believe that Victor did make a momentary lapse in judgment…” AND THEN HE SAYS “…he’s making petty excuses [i taught him that word ‘petty’] for copying copyrighted material!”

Well, am I granted the excuse of my poor judgment—or not?! Which is it?

[Ellen Stuttle]

Dear God, what a bore. Are we really going to have a discussion over whether Victor plagiarized or not? Of course he didn't. He picked up a quote from an O'ist website -- apparently it was a quote from Joe Rowlands -- and neglected, in the heat of the moment as he says, to cite the original. Hardly a crime -- or even more than a mild misdemeanor. And Victor's outpouring about that subject comes nowhere near to addressing my questions about why Victor is posting here. Victor, are you just using this list to try to justify yourself to people on SOLO? You didn't plagiarize. You copied and neglected to cite, and subsequently said so. End of it, please.

Ellen

___

[Rich Engle]

Ellen has it right, that was obvious from right off the rip.

And that is what made it so damn funny- the phoney moral indignation. Jason, of course, taking his role as hatchet man.

The dogpile- and Hsieh was first in to grab the ball (well, more like grab Victor's balls).

I think that Victor is sincere. And maybe he got sucked into it over there- it happens in group dynamics, for one thing.

Victor is an artist, and a pretty darn good one, from what I've had time to see. Artists like this are sensitive, and they are schooled- but that doesn't immunize them from such things. I've said it before- if I remained how I was some years ago, I would be the darling, a permanent flavor of the month over there. It's easy if you have some knowledge of the system, a naturally unpleasant nature, and some smarts. It's harder to go the other direction. Victor, it appears, is trying to move out of it.

Yes, Victor, Gary isn't going to be the only one watching you. Of course! You were part of the dogpile, and you were truly a nasty prick, which you copped to.

Try this- write the way you want to write, talk about your perspectives. Free yourself of this past engagement.

Have sex with Phil- everyone else seems to be doing it.

regards,

rde

One of the few people in O-world that Phil hasn't shagged yet.

[Rich Engle]

I haven't checked yet this morning (I'm actually doing some work involving large, thrusting buildings, and how to redesign/reface them), but if not already, it is only a matter of time, is it not, before we hear that we have taken on a stray, a dysfunctional, a suboptimal?

It's the cheap shot, and it's gotta happen.

rde

psychic, occasional restaurant critic.

[Dragonfly]

As I understand it the whole thing started with some article about "integration". Now I wonder what all that talk about "integration" is. Is it a new Objectivist buzzword, one of those mantras that don't really mean anything but that give some people a good and warm feeling when they repeat it?

[Ciro]

[-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X

I hope my message is clear