Fundamentalist Mormons and individual rights

[Selene]

Sorry to nitpick, but I believe the boy's name is Elian Gonzalez.

Folks:

[snip]

Additionally, we had the horror of Elian Rodriguez in Florida, taken at the point of an assault rifle out of his home and deported to Cuba.

[snip]

Adam

Yep

[Barbara Branden]

Michael: "These are predominantly good people at heart (most of them—and I truly believe that). They lived secluded lives trying to be good people, virtuous people. I have no doubt at all that when they come in contact with other good people with different ideas (on a scale like we are now seeing), ones who point to something reasonable (like underage marriage being illegal and psychologically damaging) and say this is wrong for such-and-such reasons, they will examine the issues with goodwill. This CBS interview is one indication, although we still need to see what these guys will do and if their later acts will align with their present words."

I'll discuss my objections to some of your points in a later post, but I first want to comment on the above statement. When you say that "these" are predominantly good people, who is the they you're referring to? Did you see the three woman from the compound who were interviewed on television? It was a horror from "The Stepford Wives," but without the forced cheerfulness of the latter. The women were like programmed robots, each of them meekly answering the questions in the identical words. The worst of it was that their words and expressions were totally without affect; they spoke of wanting their children back in monotonous monotones, their faces blank. Clearly, these pathetic women have been brainwashed at best, terrified into hopeless submission at worst -- and probably both. . Whoever and whatever did this to them is emphatically not "good people." And if this is typical of what goes on in the compound, we have seen only the tip of the iceberg so far. I shudder at the thought of children being brought up to suffer the fate of these women.

Barbara

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Barbara,

When you say that "these" are predominantly good people, who is the they you're referring to?

"They," the victims of brainwashing. I presume you do not need me to cite who the victims are. I think we can agree that there are brainwashed people, both men and women, in that cult. If you need more information, I will dig and come up with some names.

I don't condone cults because they brainwash people. I think demonizing the victims is wrong.

I am sorry that was not clear.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Barbara,

When you say that "these" are predominantly good people, who is the they you're referring to?

"They," the victims of brainwashing. I presume you do not need me to cite who the victims are. I think we can agree that there are brainwashed people, both men and women, in that cult. If you need more information, I will dig and come up with some names.

I don't condone cults because they brainwash people. I think demonizing the victims is wrong.

I am sorry that was not clear.

Michael

Who benefits from the brainwashing? The males. Who doesn't? The females. Patriarchial, Christian sub-sect.

--Brant

Edited April 23, 2008 by Brant Gaede

[sjw]

Environmentalism is choking the human race. Polygamists are brainwashed? Sure. But so is most of mankind. The only thing about them that is unique compared to the rest of the culture is that they choose to live by themselves and maintain the integrity of their culture against the masses of other brainwashed people. That is why they are being harassed by the State. I do not buy the story that some 16-year-old girl called as a prank or some such, this was a setup.

Edit: Probably the main reason they are being attacked is because of tax evasion. These people all work together to support each other. They trade their labor with each other--without being taxed on the trade. If you permit a community like this to function, then others will follow (not necessarily based on non-status-quo religious beliefs), and the government will be starved of taxes. Above all else, the government can't allow people to work together and trade in non-dollars as these polygamists do. All communities like this, above a certain size and who try to be self-supporting, will be squashed by the government on trumped-up charges. These communities represent an attack not on the culture, but on the government's ability to tax.

Shayne

Edited April 23, 2008 by sjw

[Selene]

Shayne:

Excellent observation.

I always was amazed at the left wing history professors who tried to "brainwash" and enroll students into their particular left wing cult, who then went out with their "narratives", couched in the same semantics, by requiring us to read, and "learn to regurgitate on exams", books like Charles Beards - An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution and other left wing agenda interpretations of the incredible revolution in thought we had here.

As Barbara pointed out in her post [see interview of the "Stepford wives "], they present themselves as emotionless. In fact, there were more facial kinesics from th men's interview than the women's interview.

Now some might read the women's interview as robotic, it clearly was, however, some like the Amish present the same way and describe it as their inward sense of peace and knowledge of their purpose in life.

Were not almost all of the "archetypal" heroic characters described somewhat similarly, not robotic, but cold, hard, merciless, unfeeling,etc. Could that have been from their clarity of purpose in life?

Shayne raises an excellent point. The best way to defeat the state is to deprive it of money and your production. Unfortunately, the State now has the power, will and technology to act and it will act and engage whenever given the opening.

Sometimes, they create their own openings.

Excellent observation Shayne.

Adam

[sjw]

It's extremely unjust to call these women "robotic" given what they have been through. Scroll down and watch the first video at this link:

http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2008/...hild-abuse.html

These women are not "robotic", they have been traumatized. They are an unusual people, but there are plenty of unusual people teaching kids in public schools as well, and they are paid by the State.

Shayne

PS: I did not read most of the information provided at that link but it looks horrifying.

[william.scherk]

The only thing about them that is unique compared to the rest of the culture is that they choose to live by themselves and maintain the integrity of their culture against the masses of other brainwashed people. That is why they are being harassed by the State.

If you are talking about the FLDS, there are plenty of 'unique' sects that choose to live by themselves, from the Amish to the Hutterites to the Mennonites to the Lubavitchers and so on. None of these other folk who maintain the integrity of their culture are being harassed or have their compounds raided by CPS.

The difference is the deal that has been struck between the other sects and the state. The deal is to conform with law. The heavy hand of religion is on all these people, but only in some cases does the state intervene.

-- incidentally, what gives you cause to speculate on tax evasion, Shayne? What kinds of taxes has Yearning for Zion evaded: sales tax, property tax, gas tax?

You contend that the main impetus for the seizure of children was taxes. Are you sure about that?

[sjw]

-- incidentally, what gives you cause to speculate on tax evasion, Shayne? What kinds of taxes has Yearning for Zion evaded: sales tax, property tax, gas tax?

Income tax. That should be obvious to you. Evidently you don't know how the system works.

You contend that the main impetus for the seizure of children was taxes. Are you sure about that?

I am certain that the government will only tolerate collaborating communities up to an undefined point, and then they will bring the hammer down using any kind of excuse they believe will most readily crush that community. These little communities are a direct insult to the State. They are permitted to exist only when their destruction would result in the loss of too much political capital. In this scenario, they calculated that they'd win overall.

Shayne

[Selene]

Actually William, in the probably cause listed by the state was the allegation of welfare fraud which may be what Shayne was remembering.

However, your point about conforming to the law is a valid one.

The question is whether the generic Child Protective Law is an abomination both constitutionally, in common law and is morally and ethically indefensible.

I believe it is.

Therefore, where is the middle ground?

I am going to research child protective services and the Amish community. You raise a good and valid question.

Adam

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

You couldn't possibly mean that this is a cult that brainwashes women but does not brainwash men. That would be a first in mankind's history.

Incidentally, when evaluating the TV performance of highly-placed sect acolytes who are scared out of their wits with all of the sudden attention and not used to public speaking, it is easy to imagine that the entire body of people is that way. But that would be a very limited and incomplete source. I would be more interested in seeing these people within their familiar environments, not in front of a camara crew, before labeling them robotic. I suspect that they have moments of laughter and enjoyment in their daily lives along with the cult lockstep.

When I look at the physical evidence, I don't see diseased-ridden people or maimed victims without limbs or with visible scars and so forth. I certainly don't see anything like the pictures of victims from WWII concentration camps. On the contrary, I see healthy individuals who live into old age—both men and women.

I am always very suspicious of the media's scare tactics. I like to look at where they are not pointing in addition to where they are.

Michael

[william.scherk]

-- incidentally, what gives you cause to speculate on tax evasion, Shayne? What kinds of taxes has Yearning for Zion evaded: sales tax, property tax, gas tax?

Income tax. That should be obvious to you.

It isn't obvious that the FLDS community in Eldorado have evaded any taxes, let alone income taxes. They are duly incorporated, take out federal grants, remit to the state. They are in the regime. That they may use a pool of labour to accomplish tasks is nothing different from the Anabaptist, Shaker, Quaker and other communalist sects.

You contend that the main impetus for the seizure of children was taxes. Are you sure about that?

I am certain that the government will only tolerate collaborating communities up to an undefined point, and then they will bring the hammer down using any kind of excuse they believe will most readily crush that community.

I note this backs off the original assertion ("the main reason they are being attacked is because of tax evasion"). I agree that governments will tolerate law-abiding religious communities.

In any case, the larger community will hardly be crushed. There are over ten thousand of the sect in Arizona/Utah and in Bountiful, BC. The Canadians' ability to live apart from greater society is unimpeded.

Remember that the leader of the FLDS is the prophet Warren Jeffs, who serves his god and community from prison. Should the FLDS lord speak to him as the Mormon lord spoke to prophet Brigham Young, the FLDS will change its practice of forced underage marriage. Or the FLDS leadership will depose him and sort out among itself the challenge of living under American law.

If Shayne or anyone want to rail about the probity of child protective statutes or particular raids, procedures, stances, follies, yeah, sure, glad to hear it.

(the argument above evokes 'collaborating communities' whom the authorities ('they') will crush at some undefinable moment. Which communities are these, I wonder.

If not the religious communities I listed earlier, perhaps apocalyptic cults like the former Church Universal and Triumphant, or the Rashneeshi? America's history is rife with weird isolationist sects from Heaven's Gate to the Millerites and JWs and the hell and gone. What makes the state snap? In the case of Utah statehood, America would not tolerate polygamy by law. In the case of the separate fiefdom of Yearning for Zion, the state of Texas will not tolerate marriages of children of under-16s.)

It is congenial that Shayne and Adam do not praise the sect for the conduct of its members, leaders or rank and file, and do remind us that a principled position can be made that rejects any state action against parents short of gross abuse . . . or that carefully scrutinizes state action in light of individual rights. I respect a position that forces the state to justify its actions, in court and otherwise.

But this doesn't mean that 'the hammer' should never come down, does it? I mean, do Shayne or Adam take issue with the jailing of Jeffs? Do they have interesting predictions to make on the future course of the FLDS? Do they worry that seeming to be allies of the bereft FLDS moms and dads has a certain Objectivist ick-factor?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ARI Press Release: Hands off independent human breeding programs!

The State of Texas has no right to remove children from the Yearning for Zion ranch at Eldorado. The simple, homespun irrationalists and mystics of the ranch have every right to set and follow a breeding program for their followers, be they young or old.

. . .

Edited April 23, 2008 by william.scherk

[Selene]

William:

Amusing. However, I do not think many who have read my exchanges with Shayne and I would make us a dance team, I lead and he does not like to follow. Makes for a tangled mess around the base player.

Therefore, let me draw the distinction I made. The State law of Texas states that the legal age for marriage is 16, with parental consent. Furthermore, would you admit that:

a) the 416 children that were taken did not all fall into the category of female, under 16, and married? and

b) that the originating phone calls age, location and motive, is now under serious dispute? and

c) that we do not know how many boys were in the 416, or were they all female.

So before you project your perception of what I meant when I complimented Shayne on raising a valid point, you could direct a question to me.

Or do you ascribe to the guilt by association school of thought?

Adam

[Brant Gaede]

Brant,

You couldn't possibly mean that this is a cult that brainwashes women but does not brainwash men. That would be a first in mankind's history.

You're correct, Michael. But I also stand by what I said. One merely comes out of the wash differently depending on one's sex.

--Brant

[sjw]

William, you do not understand the first thing about the way income tax works. I am not going to explain it to you either, because you are just a cultist, a zealot who worships the State. People like you are far more dangerous than those Mormon folks your fellow cultists rounded up. You people wield the guns, indoctrinate far more children in your dangerous philosophy, don't worry a bit about due process or probable cause, and leave us sane people nowhere on Earth to even get away from you.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

One merely comes out of the wash differently depending on one's sex.

Brant,

Agreed.

I even think this is a legitimate case for Women's Lib.

At least, if men can have multiples wives in that culture, a woman should have the right to have multiple husbands.

Michael

[sjw]

At least, if men can have multiples wives in that culture, a woman should have the right to have multiple husbands.

All they really need is the right to walk away. Those obsessed with the problem are free to offer them assistance if they want.

Shayne

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

All they really need is the right to walk away.

Shayne,

I essentially agree with this. The problem is that the isolation, insulation and intimidation from birth in that culture do not allow a healthy volition to develop. There are two approaches being suggested in this thread so far to resolve this:

1. To impose some kind of way to allow outside information to get in, especially to children. This is my suggestion. If force is being used to restrict access to outside information, then force must be used to abolish the restrictions.

I believe that a healthy free will starts with information and feeds on it. Any dictator in the world will tell you that an ignorant people can be governed with ease and that an informed one is impossible to oppress for long.

2. To impose destruction on the cult through a total restructuring of that society using guns. This means separating children from mothers by force and jailing the adults on charges like pedophilia. I not only object to this this as an abuse of authority, it simply will not work. Those who escape the claws of the police force and courts will move elsewhere, strengthened in their belief that they are the chosen people and that the world is against them.

One theme that flows through all the narratives I read of the women and men who got out of that cult on their own (not the excommunicated ones, and yes, some men got out on their own and lost their wives and children in the process) is that they were in contact in some manner with outside culture and this gave them a basis for comparison. I have no doubt the real solution is ensuring access to information, then leaving these people alone—but, of course, subject to normal law after education. They will work matters out just fine like the rest of us do.

Michael

[sjw]

The problem is that the isolation, insulation and intimidation from birth in that culture do not allow a healthy volition to develop.

Isolation? There's nothing more isolating that having the entire Earth covered in Statists. Insulation? What could be more insulating that the Statist propaganda we're fed in public schools, on TV, the media, in Objectivist circles, etc.? Intimidation? Ha! The Mormons have nothing on the intimidation tactics of even one branch of the State.

In other words: You've got to be #@#!ing kidding me.

Shayne

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Shayne,

No I am not kidding you.

I remind you that the proper function of the government is to protect the rights of citizens. If the rights of the children are being violated and they are being turned into cult members by force, it is the proper function of the government to ensure they can exercise freedom as they see fit when they come of age.

I find it odd you seem to deny that a child's mind can be mutilated by adults and no protection against this is needed.

Michael

[william.scherk]

William, you do not understand the first thing about the way income tax works. I am not going to explain it to you either, because you are just a cultist, a zealot who worships the State. People like you are far more dangerous than those Mormon folks your fellow cultists rounded up. You people wield the guns, indoctrinate far more children in your dangerous philosophy, don't worry a bit about due process or probable cause, and leave us sane people nowhere on Earth to even get away from you.

Yow. I have wondered for a while if Shayne was an artful stylist or a nutcase. Now I know. It's funny how pulling his nose on a sloppy argument turns one into a fiendish cultist.

Mind you, the opprobrium above doesn't top this Wisslerizing:

You are committing the most atrocious, vile, disgustingly filthy sin imaginable that does not involve initiation of force, for that you should be shunned by any thinking person.

Ah, polemics!

[sjw]

I find it odd you seem to deny that a child's mind can be mutilated by adults and no protection against this is needed.

And I find it odd that you seem to deny the mutilation their alleged protector engages in. Those children are going from the frying pan and into the fire.

I also find it odd the non-objectivity you indulge in when it comes to children. There are some clear lines when it comes to children. Parents are free to teach their kids lies, like Santa Claus, Zeus, Muhammad, or whatever. The State has no business telling parents they can't lie to or defraud their children. Is it right that parents lie and defraud? No. But it's worse to give the State the power to barge into your home and tell you how to raise your children. There's a clear line between that and physical neglect/endangerment/harm. There is no evidence of that in this case. The only ones being physically aggressive here are the representatives of the State.

Shayne

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

And I find it odd that you seem to deny the mutilation their alleged protector engages in.

Heh.

Quote to back this up, please.

Michael

[bmacwilliam]

because you are just a cultist, a zealot who worships the State. People like you are far more dangerous than those Mormon folks your fellow cultists rounded up. You people wield the guns, indoctrinate far more children in your dangerous philosophy,

Well at least Shayne is firmly rooted in reality. The sky would be what colour in your world?

Bob

[sjw]

And I find it odd that you seem to deny the mutilation their alleged protector engages in.

Quote to back this up, please.

Do you know what the word "seem" means? If so then your question is disingenuous. Because clearly I can have a reason for claiming that you "seem to deny..." without having a literal quote of you doing such denying. So is your call for a quote a rhetorical trick on your part or a logical slip?

Shayne