The Nature of Private Correspondence - The Sciabarra Smear

[Jonathan]

The nature of the adult-child sex issue, and the zeal with which unscrupulous people like to use it to smear others, makes it necessary for me to state the following very clearly:

I do not support a low legal age of consent for adult-child sex. I am wholly against it.

I agree, only I think that, psychologically, a normal, average person in our current American society doesn't become an adult until he or she is 26 (and some Objectivists never become adults). Having sex before 26 can be psychologically damaging (I've seen many people completely mess up their lives by doing so), and should be punished with long prison terms. People who advocate the right to have sex with people younger than 26 should be socially stigmatized.

I believe in the right of adults to practice consensual sex however they wish, but, as is being more and more demonstrated through case studies, adult-child sex actually infringes the right of the child to healthy psychological development to adulthood (an extension of his right to life). Like Rand wrote, there is no such thing as one right that breaches another.

What was Rand's official Objectivist position on the age of consent, and what were the arguments she used to support it? Actually, I think a more relevant question is "what is the age of stigma?" According to Objectivism, what age of consent can a person publicly advocate without being labeled a pervert? I say 26. What does Objectivism say?

J

Are you serious?

Of course I'm serious! 26 is the age that I've objectively determined is the proper age of consent.

If the sexual relationship between Vili Fualaau and Mary Kay Letourneau, a couple who appear to be happy together years after their first sexual encounter, is something to be condemned on the grounds that he was too young to understand it or deal with it emotionally, then I think that Ayn Rand's seduction of vulnerable young Nathaniel Branden, who was less than 26 at the time that she began molesting him, must also be condemned in light of the trauma that she caused to Branden.

26 should be the age of consent.

J

Edited May 19, 2007 by Jonathan

[Brant Gaede]

Of course I'm serious! 26 is the age that I've objectively determined is the proper age of consent.

If the sexual relationship between Vili Fualaau and Mary Kay Letourneau, a couple who appear to be happy together years after their first sexual encounter, is something to be condemned on the grounds that he was too young to understand it or deal with it emotionally, then I think that Ayn Rand's seduction of vulnerable young Nathaniel Branden, who was less than 26 at the time that she began molesting him, must also be condemned in light of the trauma that she caused to Branden.

26 should be the age of consent.

J

Poor Nathaniel Branden! If there had only been an age of sexual consent law for him! Ayn Rand would have spent the next ten years in the slammer!

--Brant

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Of course I'm serious! 26 is the age that I've objectively determined is the proper age of consent.

If the sexual relationship between Vili Fualaau and Mary Kay Letourneau, a couple who appear to be happy together years after their first sexual encounter, is something to be condemned on the grounds that he was too young to understand it or deal with it emotionally, then I think that Ayn Rand's seduction of vulnerable young Nathaniel Branden, who was less than 26 at the time that she began molesting him, must also be condemned in light of the trauma that she caused to Branden.

26 should be the age of consent.

J

Vili Fualaau was 12 years old at the time of their first encounter and Mary Kay Letourneau was his 6th grade teacher and married. That they are married and happy now does not prove that her actions at the time were appropriate. The court granted leniency several times and gave Mary Kay Letourneau a chance to avoid jail time.

The thing to do if you are a mature minor and have a reason to want to be independent from your parents this way is to apply to a judge for emancipated minor status. I have a friend from high school who did just that. Her parents were in a bitter divorce and she did not want either of them to have custody. She supported herself by playing string quartet gigs on the weekends and continued to go to high school.

Jim

[Chris Grieb]

Jim,

Isn't the emancipated minor only in California?

Don't you know of one couple where the male is younger and he was I believe under 26 when he married the woman.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[BAMF]

Chris,

People can be emancipated in Missouri, so it ain't limited to Cali.

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Jim,

Isn't the emancipated minor only in California?

Don't you know of one couple where the male is younger and he was I believe under 26 when he married the woman.

Chris, the case I was talking about was in Iowa.

I think the second statement deserves a smiley :-). I got married when I was 30, so I guess I've got a 4 year cushion, I hope my older wife isn't taking advantage of me too badly :devil: .

Jim

[Chris Grieb]

Jim,

The couple I was thinking of the husband is a lot younger than the wife.

I thought emancipation was a California thing. It sounds like a good idea.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[Steve Gagne]

A Catalogue of Emancipated Minor Law in the U.S., from the Cornell University Law School, Legal Information Institute.

Copyright notice for the Cornell University Law School, Legal Information Institute.

[James Heaps-Nelson]

Chris,

I think there was a case in Georgia that made the news where the husband was in his midteens and the wife was in her mid-30s. I'm not sure what the outcome was.

Jim

[Jonathan]

I wanted to add some serious comments to my facetious ones above.

MSK, regarding the case studies that you mentioned, I have no doubt that unwanted sex with adults can have very negative effects on children. I have adult friends who still feel the pain of having been sexually abused as children. But I'd be more interested in studies about precocious youngsters who sought out their relationships, and studies which take into consideration which negative psychological effects might have been caused by social disapproval and other reactions of horror that are typically displayed in regard to sexuality. Having witnessed and been the target of forms of sexual hysteria as a child*, I'm always interested in learning if those who have studied the issue have determined to what degree any trauma might actually have been due to the behavior of those who act as protectors of the young.

J

* (Warning, rambling personal anecdote ahead):

When I was in elementary school, I was already a pretty good artist, and, unlike my classmates, I would draw fairly anatomically correct figures. Even though I always drew them fully clothed and there was nothing sexually suggestive about their poses, I had teachers who would become very upset about the fact that the women I drew had breasts and curved hips. Normal children didn't draw like that. They labeled me a "dirty boy," and toward the end of my elementary school career, I spent a few weeks being hounded by a puritanical teacher who tried everything in her power to get me to confess to an act of "disgusting vulgarity."

Someone had drawn a penis on a cartoon character on a worksheet handout that the teacher had prepared, and she was certain that the "dirty boy" who had a reputation for drawing "naughty pictures" of women with breasts was the only student who would have done such a thing (never mind that the penis wasn't drawn very well).

She became obsessed with the issue and tried a variety of tactics to get a confession: keeping my entire class from going to recess until the perpetrator confessed (she would look at me during the entire time that she was explaining to the class why we were being held), speaking to my classmates in my absence and convincing them that I should be shunned (a classmate would later tell me about their secret meetings with her), then, after a period of their shunning me, she would tell them that they should suddenly be very nice to me while trying to talk me into confessing, in order to "just get it over with" and save them, my dear friends and classmates, from further group punishment, etc.

Finally, after weeks of these types of tactics which focused on me as the only suspect, she decided that the best way of determining who was guilty was for the class to vote by secret ballot. Whoever received the most votes would receive a month of detention, his parents would be notified, and his perverted actions would become a part of his permanent school record.

After my classmates unanimously voted for me, the teacher took me out into the hall and began to privately scold me, but I interrupted her and told her that I hadn't drawn the penis, and that I wanted to call my parents immediately and tell them about what she was doing to me. I told her that I thought maybe the school board should also hear about it. She looked blank, and then terrified. After a few moments, she marched me back into the class, announced that I hadn't vandalized the worksheet, and that my classmates should be ashamed of themselves for having accused me of it. How dare they! She said that we'd probably never discover who actually did it, as the matter was now closed. We were to talk about it no more.

Even though I was a pretty tough kid, it was somewhat of a traumatic thing to go through. It was a shock to see friends so easily manipulated into turning against me. It was strange to see how upsetting to the teachers anything to do with sexuality was, and how far they would go to snuff it out or punish it. I mean, there were children who had been suspected of chronic stealing, cheating or physically bullying other students, but I had never seen any of them pursued with such enthusiasm as when someone drew that cartoon dick.

And what I went through was nothing compared to what a schoolmate, who had always had a reputation of being a "dirty girl" who enjoyed "playing doctor," had to deal with. I think that the real, lasting damage that she suffered had nothing to do with an inability to emotionally handle her choices regarding her sexual activities, but had everything to do with not being able to handle the viciousness that was inflicted on her by adults who were multiple times more frantic with her than my puritanical teacher had been with me. In the name of "protecting" her, they did everything they could to vilify, isolate and destroy her.

If she were to become a case study, I wouldn't be surprised if those performing the study would conclude that early sex had been the cause her later emotional problems, as her "protectors" convinced her to believe just that herself.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Jonathan

[BAMF]

Jonathan,

That is the most insane thing I've heard in...I don't know how long! Don' even know what ta say.

Of course sexual abuse can have horrible effects on those who have been harmed in the future, but, like Jon says, I'd like to know about those "precocious youngsters" and what effects it had on them.

[Jonathan]

Insane indeed, Kori.

I want to mention that I don't think that such extreme circumstances are common. But, at least when I was in school (including schools far away from the elementary school that I mentioned above), it wasn't unusual for young people who seemed to have a strong interest in sex to be treated pretty poorly by both adults and classmates. I can understand the idea that teachers and parents would want to discourage sexual activity, but it often went beyond mere discouragement. Girls in particular could very quickly get an unearned reputation of being sluts, and could face some very harsh ridicule, social exclusion and other forms of abuse which I think was probably much more psychologically damaging than any regrets they would have had on their own about having gone too far sexually in the heat of the moment.

J

Edited May 21, 2007 by Jonathan

[Chris Grieb]

Jon,

I suspect you would probably be charged and no foundation would give money for such a study. I suspect a researcher who did studies on the topic would have a very hard time of it.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[Martin Radwin]

I wanted to add some serious comments to my facetious ones above.

MSK, regarding the case studies that you mentioned, I have no doubt that unwanted sex with adults can have very negative effects on children. I have adult friends who still feel the pain of having been sexually abused as children. But I'd be more interested in studies about precocious youngsters who sought out their relationships, and studies which take into consideration which negative psychological effects might have been caused by social disapproval and other reactions of horror that are typically displayed in regard to sexuality. Having witnessed and been the target of forms of sexual hysteria as a child*, I'm always interested in learning if those who have studied the issue have determined to what degree any trauma might actually have been due to the behavior of those who act as protectors of the young.

J

* (Warning, rambling personal anecdote ahead):

When I was in elementary school, I was already a pretty good artist, and, unlike my classmates, I would draw fairly anatomically correct figures. Even though I always drew them fully clothed and there was nothing sexually suggestive about their poses, I had teachers who would become very upset about the fact that the women I drew had breasts and curved hips. Normal children didn't draw like that. They labeled me a "dirty boy," and toward the end of my elementary school career, I spent a few weeks being hounded by a puritanical teacher who tried everything in her power to get me to confess to an act of "disgusting vulgarity."

Someone had drawn a penis on a cartoon character on a worksheet handout that the teacher had prepared, and she was certain that the "dirty boy" who had a reputation for drawing "naughty pictures" of women with breasts was the only student who would have done such a thing (never mind that the penis wasn't drawn very well).

She became obsessed with the issue and tried a variety of tactics to get a confession: keeping my entire class from going to recess until the perpetrator confessed (she would look at me during the entire time that she was explaining to the class why we were being held), speaking to my classmates in my absence and convincing them that I should be shunned (a classmate would later tell me about their secret meetings with her), then, after a period of their shunning me, she would tell them that they should suddenly be very nice to me while trying to talk me into confessing, in order to "just get it over with" and save them, my dear friends and classmates, from further group punishment, etc.

Finally, after weeks of these types of tactics which focused on me as the only suspect, she decided that the best way of determining who was guilty was for the class to vote by secret ballot. Whoever received the most votes would receive a month of detention, his parents would be notified, and his perverted actions would become a part of his permanent school record.

After my classmates unanimously voted for me, the teacher took me out into the hall and began to privately scold me, but I interrupted her and told her that I hadn't drawn the penis, and that I wanted to call my parents immediately and tell them about what she was doing to me. I told her that I thought maybe the school board should also hear about it. She looked blank, and then terrified. After a few moments, she marched me back into the class, announced that I hadn't vandalized the worksheet, and that my classmates should be ashamed of themselves for having accused me of it. How dare they! She said that we'd probably never discover who actually did it, as the matter was now closed. We were to talk about it no more.

Even though I was a pretty tough kid, it was somewhat of a traumatic thing to go through. It was a shock to see friends so easily manipulated into turning against me. It was strange to see how upsetting to the teachers anything to do with sexuality was, and how far they would go to snuff it out or punish it. I mean, there were children who had been suspected of chronic stealing, cheating or physically bullying other students, but I had never seen any of them pursued with such enthusiasm as when someone drew that cartoon dick.

And what I went through was nothing compared to what a schoolmate, who had always had a reputation of being a "dirty girl" who enjoyed "playing doctor," had to deal with. I think that the real, lasting damage that she suffered had nothing to do with an inability to emotionally handle her choices regarding her sexual activities, but had everything to do with not being able to handle the viciousness that was inflicted on her by adults who were multiple times more frantic with her than my puritanical teacher had been with me. In the name of "protecting" her, they did everything they could to vilify, isolate and destroy her.

If she were to become a case study, I wouldn't be surprised if those performing the study would conclude that early sex had been the cause her later emotional problems, as her "protectors" convinced her to believe just that herself.

Jonathan, thanks for once again confirming the wisdom of my decision to send my daughter to a Montessori private school. The insanity that not infrequently occurs in government schools is often such that it almost seems like a parody rather than the real thing.

Martin

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, thanks for once again confirming the wisdom of my decision to send my daughter to a Montessori private school. The insanity that not infrequently occurs in government schools is often such that it almost seems like a parody rather than the real thing.

Martin

It may be hard to believe, but the same year that I was being persecuted by the cartoon dick obsessor, I had an even worse teacher. He was a big, hairy, intimidating, Bob Hoskins-looking bastard who felt that it was his mission in life to toughen up his students by giving us harsh "life lessons" in which he would cheat us out of the grades that we deserved or punish us for minor, technical infractions of his complex classroom rules. Fortunately, most of the students' parents and several of his fellow teachers were unwilling to tolerate his nastiness, and the school board got rid of him.

J

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Jonathan,

What you wrote is definitely a problem. It's funny how a smutty attitude and the need to control go together while common sense goes right out the window. After over 30 years in Brazil, I have a hard time understanding the nastiness and malice that is often wedded to sex here in the USA.

Even rape is looked down on in Brazil. It happens, but it is treated differently. For instance, if a prisoner is convicted of rape there, he can count on getting his eyebrows shaved off in prison. This means that he is the pet and all the prisoners who wish him and he must submit to them sexually whenever they so require (on pain of severe beatings). The idea is to humiliate him in the same manner he humiliated the woman he raped. This has been a sacred tradition for decades.

Michael

[Steve Gagne]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...ives/article.do

[John Dailey]

~ I have no problem with a legal definition (state or fed) of 'adult'-vs-'non-adult (aka 'minor').' Such is necessary for a court system to recognize if and who to properly hold l-i-a-b-le in a property/life conflict...especially if it's a lethal one.

~ However, the whole idea of 'age-of-consent' (re, what else? Doin' IT!) needs a whole re-vamping overhaul of thought. Pure chronological age itself should not be the 'absolute' each state arbitrarily penalizes the older one (sometimes less than 1yr) about, much less deciding if the 'victim' is one if their 'consent' birthday was yesterday rather than tomorrow (not to mention sometimes both victims are perps; hard to say where 'abuse' is here...other than purely 'legally'). As well, genders re 'perps' should not be considered equivalent; a 14-yr old boy would usually not have the equivalent psych (if any) probs as a girl, re a 'perp' (whatever gender) who's 30. Indeed, charges, if any, should be brought by the parents (unless DCYS is in charge) of the 'under'-aged one.

LLAP

J:D

[John Dailey]

Addendum:

~ 'Wiki' has some interesting background on the phrase 'age of consent'...especially its being NOT a legal term!

~ Sorry for continuing the hijack, but...

LLAP

J:D

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

This has to go on record, and I cannot think of a better place to put it than on this thread:

That stupid testosterone thing is not a hanging offence, though. Attacking my honesty and reproducing my private e-mails without my permission are.

Lindsay Perigo (see here), handing down this pearl of wisdom as to why he banned long-time supporter and friend, Ross Elliot, from Solo Passion. December 19, 2007.

Ain't life a bitch for the hypocrite?

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Shortly after I joined OL I stopped looking at Solo Passion. Each time something about Solo Passion is posted I say to myself I have no reason to go back. I think this process is called voting with your feet.

Edited December 19, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[Alfonso Jones]

This has to go on record, and I cannot think of a better place to put it than on this thread:

That stupid testosterone thing is not a hanging offence, though. Attacking my honesty and reproducing my private e-mails without my permission are.

Lindsay Perigo (see here), handing down this pearl of wisdom as to why he banned long-time supporter and friend, Ross Elliot, from Solo Passion. December 19, 2007.

Ain't life a bitch for the hypocrite?

Michael

Michael -

Friends don't encourage friends to visit Solo Passion.

Alfonso

[Chris Grieb]

Michael; In view of Alfonso's post I will think of you as my designated Solo looker.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I am documenting blatant hypocrisy for future reference. This guy keeps preaching that he is some kind of Objectivist leader. Well here is one place where the world can look and see if this is accurate without the smokescreens. Let them see the facts and judge for themselves.

I merely happened to be looking at that SLOP thread because of comments on another thread here on OL. But I admit it. Sometimes I do peek trying to stay in touch with my inner gossipmonger. I like Jerry Springer, Judge Judy and National Enquirer at times too.

In Brazil, they say you can't teach taste. You can only refine it.

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Michael; Excellent point. I'm glad you look at SOLO for me.

I'll keep you informed about Brittany's sister and John Edward's secret love child. I'll tell you if anyone is charged in the Natalie Holloway disappearance.