Deborah Kerr

[Chris Grieb]

I have just seen a report she died. I suspect many of the younger readers of OL will not know but she received six Oscar nominations in the 50ths and 60ths. Her famous role was in The King & I. She played I. My favorite role was the hen-pecked daughter in Separate Tables. She has been retired but I suspect TCM will show some in the next couple of day and I hope OL readers will look at them.

[Ross Barlow]

Deborah Kerr also played Lygia in one of my mother's favorite movies, *Quo Vadis* (1951), with Robert Taylor as Marcus and Peter Ustinov as Nero. It was a classic, but it was also another case of the novel (by Henryk Sienkiewicz) being much better than the film. In this case it was a disappointment that Petronius was not cast better, as he was to my mind the major character in the book. The film was too Christian and did not have the balance the book had between that and classical paganism or Stoicism.

Ironically, Kerr’s famous film of *The King and I* (1956), about Anna Leonowens and the King of Thailand (aka, Siam), has never been allowed to play in Thailand. Neither has the fine Jody Foster film *Anna and the King* (1999) nor any other version of the story. The reason for this is that the real-life Anna Leonowens fictionalized a big portion of her story, as she had fictionalized many other parts of her life in her memoirs. She did indeed tutor the children of the great King Mongkut, but she was never as close to him as she claimed, and Thais think that her stories and the films made from them are insulting to the monarchy. Hence the films are banned here. So much for freedom of expression. But many Thais have managed to see the films anyway on video, despite the censorship. The wonders of the black market.

Deborah Kerr was also a Bond Girl. Sort of. She was in the 1967 spoof of *Casino Royal* with Peter Sellers, David Niven, Woody Allen, et al.

.

-Ross Barlow.

[Selene]

Deborah Kerr also played Lygia in one of my mother's favorite movies, *Quo Vadis* (1951), with Robert Taylor as Marcus and Peter Ustinov as Nero. It was a classic, but it was also another case of the novel (by Henryk Sienkiewicz) being much better than the film. In this case it was a disappointment that Petronius was not cast better, as he was to my mind the major character in the book. The film was too Christian and did not have the balance the book had between that and classical paganism or Stoicism.

Ironically, Kerr’s famous film of *The King and I* (1956), about Anna Leonowens and the King of Thailand (aka, Siam), has never been allowed to play in Thailand. Neither has the fine Jody Foster film *Anna and the King* (1999) nor any other version of the story. The reason for this is that the real-life Anna Leonowens fictionalized a big portion of her story, as she had fictionalized many other parts of her life in her memoirs. She did indeed tutor the children of the great King Mongkut, but she was never as close to him as she claimed, and Thais think that her stories and the films made from them are insulting to the monarchy. Hence the films are banned here. So much for freedom of expression. But many Thais have managed to see the films anyway on video, despite the censorship. The wonders of the black market.

Deborah Kerr was also a Bond Girl. Sort of. She was in the 1967 spoof of *Casino Royal* with Peter Sellers, David Niven, Woody Allen, et al.

AAAGH! I hate being this old! Her role as Karen Holmes, the wife of commanding officer Holmes in From Here to Eternity with the famous erotic kiss on the beach with the _______ waves breaking over them was, for that time, pretty erotic.

.

-Ross Barlow.

[Ellen Stuttle]

Deborah Kerr also played Lygia in one of my mother's favorite movies, *Quo Vadis* (1951), with Robert Taylor as Marcus and Peter Ustinov as Nero. It was a classic, but it was also another case of the novel (by Henryk Sienkiewicz) being much better than the film. In this case it was a disappointment that Petronius was not cast better, as he was to my mind the major character in the book. The film was too Christian and did not have the balance the book had between that and classical paganism or Stoicism.

Rand loved Quo Vadis and said of Gail Wynand that he was a modern-day Petronius. The book is extremely good, and Sienkiewicz's method of writing it was amazing in producing such quality: He wrote it in installments, sending each off to be published as it was finished.

Deborah Kerr was a favorite actress of mine. I first saw her in The King and I. Upon researching, I soon discovered that Anna Leonowens had, as you report, "fictionalized a big portion" both of her role in Siam and of other parts of her memoirs. Still, that's a winner of a movie...

Ellen

___

[Chris Grieb]

Separate Tables was by Terrence Rattigan. It was originally two plays but he combined it into one screen play. Deborah Kerr last line in the play was called one of the most noble lines on stage in a review in the Objectivist.

I liked Quo Vidas as boy. It was the first big movie I saw.

Edited October 19, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[Steve Gagne]

Deborah Kerr also played Lygia in one of my mother's favorite movies, *Quo Vadis* (1951), with Robert Taylor as Marcus and Peter Ustinov as Nero. It was a classic, but it was also another case of the novel (by Henryk Sienkiewicz) being much better than the film. In this case it was a disappointment that Petronius was not cast better, as he was to my mind the major character in the book. The film was too Christian and did not have the balance the book had between that and classical paganism or Stoicism.

From Wikipedia:

Quo Vadis: A Narrative of the Time of Nero, commonly known as Quo Vadis, is a Polish historical novel written by Henryk Sienkiewicz. Quo vadis is Latin for "Where are you going?" and alludes to a New Testament verse (John 13:36). The verse, in the King James Version, reads as follows, "Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards."

Also from Wiki:

The title is Latin, meaning Where are you going? and refers to the encounter between St Peter and Jesus Christ on the Appian Way. Peter, fleeing from the persecutions of the Emperor Nero had a vision of Christ whom he asked "Domine, quo vadis?" (Lord, whither goest thou?). Jesus answered him, "Whither I go, thou can not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards" (John 13:36). Peter understood this to mean that Jesus was going back to Rome to be crucified again. Peter, following his own fate, returned to Rome and was crucified at the foot of the Vatican Hill where St Peter's Basilica stands today.

And again from Wiki:

It {the apocryphal Acts of Peter} concludes describing Peter's martyrdom as upside-down crucifixion, a tradition that is first attested in this work. These concluding chapters are preserved separately as the Martyrdom of Peter in three Greek manuscripts and in Coptic (fragmentary), Syriac, Ethiopic, Arabic, Armenian, and Slavonic versions. Because of this, it is sometimes proposed that the martyrdom account was the original text to which the preceding chapters were affixed.

And finally, from Wiki

Sienkiewicz studied the Roman Empire extensively prior to writing the novel, with the aim of getting historical details correct. As such, several historical figures appear in the book. As a whole, the novel carries a powerful pro-Christian message.

But you say it "was too Christian and did not have the balance". Somehow I get the impression you may be reading more into it than you're reading out of it. But at least you're in good company. Give a Bible to a fundamentalist Christian and he'll do the same thing.

[BaalChatzaf]

I have just seen a report she died. I suspect many of the younger readers of OL will not know but she received six Oscar nominations in the 50ths and 60ths. Her famous role was in The King & I. She played I. My favorite role was the hen-pecked daughter in Separate Tables. She has been retired but I suspect TCM will show some in the next couple of day and I hope OL readers will look at them.

If nothing else immortalizes Kerr, it is The Kiss in -From Here to Eternity-. Kerr and Lancaster did as much before the camera as the censorship rules in effect permitted. It is probably one of the most imitated and satirized movie scenes ever. To use the words of -Princess Bride-, it was the second greatest Kiss ever.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

The beach scene in From Here to Eterinity was a great improvement over the novel. Karen and Warden orginially just went to hotel room.

Baal; What was the greatest kiss?

[BaalChatzaf]

The beach scene in From Here to Eterinity was a great improvement over the novel. Karen and Warden orginially just went to hotel room.

Baal; What was the greatest kiss?

I knew someone would ask that.

The kiss between Princess Buttercup and the Dread Pirate Robert.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[BaalChatzaf]

The beach scene in From Here to Eterinity was a great improvement over the novel. Karen and Warden orginially just went to hotel room.

Baal; What was the greatest kiss?

Definitely. To use a Randian phrase; the Kiss in the motion picture was more romantic.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Ellen Stuttle]

But you say it "was too Christian and did not have the balance". Somehow I get the impression you may be reading more into it than you're reading out of it. But at least you're in good company. Give a Bible to a fundamentalist Christian and he'll do the same thing.

Somehow I think that you're reading into Ross's comment what Ross didn't say.

He wrote:

The film was too Christian and did not have the balance the book had between that and classical paganism or Stoicism. [my emphasis]

Ellen

___

[John Dailey]

~ I must admit that it is very, VERY strange, reading a thread where, whatever everyone wrote by post #11 in it...I agree with everything everyone said; Ellen (?), Baal (!), Steve, Ross, Chris, (hello, Selene)...a-l-l well said about this, this, 'actress.' She had a movie-persona with all the 'innocence' ascriptable to Monroe, A. Hepburn, K. Novack, etc; and, had it all, as they, in her own unique way.

~ I liked Kerr in what I had seen when I was young(er!), but, was too young to...'appreciate' such; that is, until I caught AN AFFAIR TO REMEMBER and THE GRASS IS GREENER. Thereafter I paid attention to her (never saw F-H-t-E, btw, though read mucho on 'the famous scene'). THE KING AND I cemented her iconicness into me, though. She was one Class act.

LLAP

J:D

Edited October 20, 2007 by John Dailey

[John Dailey]

ADDENDUM:

~ An interesting side anecdote: I hadn't seen (nor read) QUO VADIS (believe it or not) 'till I met my wife. When we got to talking about books, she referred me to the book (a dog-eared ppb...still around [with tape holding it together].) I read it, and wasn't sure just who the main protagonist was: Vinicius, Nero, Petronius...or, as in BEN-HUR, ('off-stage') Jesus. My wife made clear, however, that her favorite character was...Petronius. Gotta admit: he was one cool customer treading a fine line, and, 'freed' the slave whom he found he loved, when he knew he could no longer protect her (presaging Jefferson's decisions?)

~ We finally caught the tape-version of the movie, and, gotta admit, they stuck pretty close (for the movie-times) to the book (ok: they changed the ending 'arena'-scene a bit; hey, 'censors' and trick-photog limits then, ya know?) Leo Glenn was a wonderful Petronius.

~ And Deborah Kerr was the only one who could have been...Lygia.

LLAP

J:D

[BaalChatzaf]

ADDENDUM:

~ An interesting side anecdote: I hadn't seen (nor read) QUO VADIS (believe it or not) 'till I met my wife. When we got to talking about books, she referred me to the book (a dog-eared ppb...still around [with tape holding it together].) I read it, and wasn't sure just who the main protagonist was: Vinicius, Nero, Petronius...or, as in BEN-HUR, ('off-stage') Jesus. My wife made clear, however, that her favorite character was...Petronius. Gotta admit: he was one cool customer treading a fine line, and, 'freed' the slave whom he found he loved, when he knew he could no longer protect her (presaging Jefferson's decisions?)

~ We finally caught the tape-version of the movie, and, gotta admit, they stuck pretty close (for the movie-times) to the book (ok: they changed the ending 'arena'-scene a bit; hey, 'censors' and trick-photog limits then, ya know?) Leo Glenn was a wonderful Petronius.

~ And Deborah Kerr was the only one who could have been...Lygia.

LLAP

J:D

Jean Simons could have played the part. She played similar roles in -The Robe- and in -Spartacus-.

Ba'al (I'm Spartacus !) Chatzaf

[Judith]

Deborah Kerr also played Lygia in one of my mother's favorite movies, *Quo Vadis* (1951), with Robert Taylor as Marcus and Peter Ustinov as Nero. It was a classic, but it was also another case of the novel (by Henryk Sienkiewicz) being much better than the film. In this case it was a disappointment that Petronius was not cast better, as he was to my mind the major character in the book. The film was too Christian and did not have the balance the book had between that and classical paganism or Stoicism.

I remember reading the book and seeing the film and having totally different impressions of them. Both experiences were over 25 years ago, so my memories are a bit fuzzy. I remember being blown away by the scene with the bull in the book. But my most important memory, one I retain and actually use to explain things to others in a Randian context, is from the film. I felt such a deep, deep pity for Nero as Ustinov portrayed him. He was so used to ordering others to get the moon for him, and he was ultimately such a miserable child, because the moon cannot be had. It was a classic example of someone who never learned to distinguish between the metaphysical and the man-made.

Judith

[Chris Grieb]

Judith; Nero's history has been written by his enemies. A Nero pretender following his death attracted a lot of support in a rebellion against the Roman Emperor.

[BaalChatzaf]

Judith; Nero's history has been written by his enemies. A Nero pretender following his death attracted a lot of support in a rebellion against the Roman Emperor.

Are you sure? Both Suetonius and Tacitus were pretty friendly to the Claudii. At least they were not overtly hostile. It was Christian historians who bestowed gobs of feces upon Nero.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Edited October 20, 2007 by BaalChatzaf

[Chris Grieb]

Ba'al; I thought I was suggesting that he may not have been quite as bad as the Christians portrayed him.

[Greybird]

Kerr was talented and, at times, moving — as my own early-teenage memories of the Romanticism in "Quo Vadis?" attest. Yet she was never quite as convincing, at least to me, as her contemporaries. I can think of two notable examples.

In "Anna and the King of Siam," Irene Dunne played Anna Leonowens opposite Rex Harrison as an intriguing, but not really convincing, King Mongkut. (By the way, Ross, I'd been led to believe that this 1948 version was not, in fact, banned from Thai cinemas, as it was seen as being far more respectful to the monarch's dignity.)

Dunne made the teacher show sensitivity, perceptiveness, and ingenuity in dealing with an unfamiliar culture. I couldn't really find any of this in Kerr's take, which had far too much of Brits-civilizing-the-world hauteur lurking in the background. She almost acted as if obstacles to her task were to be swept aside, rather than dealt with and overpowered by mastery.

In "Indiscreet," Ingrid Bergman showed a middle-aged woman being perplexed by her unexpected, suave lover (Cary Grant), winning through on her tenacity and dignity, and not being ruled by the comic or absurd overtones of her situation. It had remarkable parallels to "An Affair to Remember," with Kerr being in a similar situation (also with Grant).

Yet Kerr seemed to play up the difficulty and drama of the entanglement in a far more self-conscious way, wanting to hide her situation or pity herself within her difficulties, even beyond the needless melodrama of Leo McCarey's script. Bergman played it for more pointed (and even, in part, comic) effect, showing a sense of those riffs coming from far more confidence in her own character and virtues.

Kerr could bring passion and drive to her characters, but I rarely felt they were entirely earned. Even that famous clinch on an Oahu beach rang more, to me, of "War is coming, no matter what we do, so we might as well get what kisses we can, dammit" rather than her making a genuine response to Lancaster's virtues.

... Eh. Maybe, at the end of the day, or the movie, craft is pretty much enough anyway. It's still a higher level of craft, with a Deborah Kerr, than most actors display today.

[Ross Barlow]

Wow, I just saw – unexpectedly on Thai TV – the last part of the 1951 film *Quo Vadis* with Deborah Kerr, Robert Taylor, Peter Ustinov and Leo Glenn. It is so well done. Kerr is radiant. This is an old OL thread not active for over a year, but I had to renew my vote of appreciation for Kerr et al, as well as for the original author of the novel, Henryk Sienkienwicz – whom Rand adored for this particular work being a great piece of romanticism.

John Dailey, in your post #13 to this thread on October 20, 2007 you mentioned that the first time you read the novel of *Quo Vadis* it was a book “with tape holding it together.” I would bet that that was the same edition I first bought and read, as the paperback binding was extremely fragile and it was falling apart before I was halfway through reading it.

To anyone who has not seen this great Deborah Kerr movie – or has not read the novel – I most highly recommend it.

-Ross Barlow.

[BaalChatzaf]

Tea and Sympathy?