Exposed!

[Ellen Stuttle]

For awhile, I was actually wondering if it was possible that Victor has a near-photographic memory and was pulling this stuff up out of his mind without intending to copy.

But there's his statement in the "Madame Bovary" thread that "I don’t deny lifting text out of sheer laziness".

I just don't see any possible motivation for the copying. How much work does it take to chase down all the things that one wants to say and copy them, rather than simply writing them out for one's self?

And what pleasure is there in using someone else's words when one has the wonderful opportunity to use one's own?

Very bewildering.

Judith

Judith,

I'm curious. Did you read any of the Art threads (I mean the threads about the visual arts)? I recall your saying a couple times that there are a lot of forums on the site at which you never look, and I wonder if those threads were amongst them. He needed to resort to the copying to give any appearance of providing argumentation. When answering on his own, he got mixed up over even such details as having cast discredit on Frank Lloyd Wright's window panes, and then denying he'd done so. The "wonderful opportunity" of using his own words would have produced complete incoherence.

Ellen

___

[Barbara Branden]

Do you think — or does anyone else — that because Angie and Victor made public note in this forum of their affection, their emotions, and finally their meeting, you have an unlimited right and license to comment on and judge the standards and behavior of that relationship?

Steve, one cannot have it both ways. One cannot fill page after page on a publlc forum wirh discussions of one's most intimate relationship, yet expect that the readers of those pages will not comment on what has been presented to them, just as they comment on anything else posted on a forum to which they belong. And surely it is relevant that the comments are expressions of sympathy for Angie, who has done no wrong but is Victor's victim.

Barbara

[Dodger]

What will it take for this to end?

More than 2/3s of this forum's activity has to do with Victor.

I talk to Victor outside of this forum, and consider him a friend. I may disagree with him on some issues, but hey, his beliefs and values are his alone, and I cannot judge him for them.

Please people.

Shut the hell up about this.

[BAMF]

Mitchell, people love soap operas.

[Laure]

What will it take for this to end?

More than 2/3s of this forum's activity has to do with Victor.

I talk to Victor outside of this forum, and consider him a friend. I may disagree with him on some issues, but hey, his beliefs and values are his alone, and I cannot judge him for them.

Please people.

Shut the hell up about this.

I was all ready to shut up about this, but I can't let this one pass. You cannot judge him?? So whatever values anyone chooses cannot be challenged? Anything goes?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Mitch,

Unfortunately this kind of thing is pure cause and effect. Pross taunted and mocked people while he flooded the forum with plagiary. Most stayed polite to him. If he had not tried to continue taunting and mocking from another forum, it would have died down somewhat. Now it will have to play out like all public affairs of this nature do. It has gone past the point of no return.

You might as well ask people to stop talking about Paris Hilton (not that there is any comparison of scope).

You stated, "his beliefs and values are his alone, and I cannot judge him for them." I can.

The following was written because of what he did. He agreed to it and made many promises he did not keep:

Statement of Policy about Plagiary and Copyright Infringement

How can I not judge that? How can others not judge that?

The sheer volume of Pross's plagiarized posts plus his smart-ass attitude is what is pissing people off. He's wrong, unrepentant and publicly belligerent about it. That is the cause. What you are reading is the result.

Michael

[Chris Grieb]

Mitchell;

Actions do have consequences. If you have read Atlas don't you remember a line about not faking reality in any way. Even the most charitable explanation show Victor faking a lot.

Michael and Kat have a big job of having Objectivist Living stand for something. The principle thing is the philosophy in the book I mentioned in the first paragraph.

Micheal and Kat have to Objectivist Living stand for something. It is not easy task but it must be done.

A final point is that I must say the speculation about Victor and Angie's relationship is offensive and I would hope the person would delit it.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Chris Grieb

[william.scherk]

-withdrawn-

Edited June 29, 2007 by william.scherk

[william.scherk]

EDIT: [Post withdrawn to Scherk Blog][Read by Barbara, Kori, Michael, which is good enough. Mitchell and Kori, please feel free to vent your proverbial spleens in my blog comments, where long they may languish along with my forgotten spelling mistakes and botched mp3s and general silly mayhem. smiley.gif]

The gist being I agree with cutting the crotchsnuffling and the gratuitous invective -- but am more struck by Barbara's kindness and humanity under provocation. Good O lesson to be learned if the rest of us bystanders and crotchsnufflers and so on all shut up right about now.

Edited June 29, 2007 by william.scherk

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Barbara's kindness is apparent and very touching. She has made her point and can now forgive (how can she react so gently when she had been quite needlessly attacked by Victor, early on in his SOLO guise, and the rampant unreason and insult never apologized for by the man, while our hostess the Emperor coddled and cooed?

William,

This is as good a place as any to clarify something that may not be apparent to those who did not follow the development of all this. An apology was made by Pross and posted in the Barbara Branden Corner. She also responded and accepted the apology. I admit that I strongly encouraged (OK, OK... pushed) Pross to do this because there was no way I could let him keep posting on OL without apologizing to her. He even added a later post (not prompted this time) apologizing to me.

Then came the hacker.

Poof.

The thread was complicated to restore because it happened too close to the attack to be in our back-up file and nobody printed it out (we lost about a week of posts back then, but now there is no longer any danger of that). One thing led to another and the idea of restoring it all was put on the back burner, where it was forgotten over time.

Of course I fully agree about Barbara's enormous kindness of spirit. Also, it is not only a great pleasure to "coddle and coo" her. It is an honor I never expected in my life a few years back.

Michael

[BAMF]

I'm with two zones, here. In the red zone is the my hope that Angie and Victor prosper in love, however they met, and however the spectacle (which I basically ignored, all 670 I-luvs-you-too-booboo ick factors). I wish those two the very best, and hope they take a break from this world to go live in that world.

I hope we don't touch their life and I hope we don't call names any more. I support Barbara and Ellen. Barbara's kindness is apparent and very touching. She has made her point and can now forgive (how can she react so gently when she had been quite needlessly attacked by Victor, early on in his SOLO guise, and the rampant unreason and insult never apologized for by the man, while our hostess the Emperor coddled and cooed?

Yes, get yer noses out of Victor and Angie's crotches, and still the ugly comments. "Dan NEdge, Plagerist," was a classic moment in O-online world history. You were there. Be properly observant.

Kori, stress your connection with the good heart in both Angie and Victor. Stress it enough that everyone knows you disapprove his wrongdoings. Imagine Angie, one day, in love, on the beach, after a gorgeous breakfast of scampi in garlic and champagne and wild bestial sex . . . Angie curling a lock of her gorgeous hair and brushing sand off V's belly with her beautiful hand and looking at him with a beautiful smile"

"Honey-boo boo, did you leave my laptop in the bathroom last night, huh? Who's Dan Edge and what did you write about Michael like that for? Honey, you said you wuzzn't gunna doo that booboo funny face anymore huh baby?"

And the pulse beats in his forehead.

Post of the year, William Scherk. I couldn't agree more. I do disapprove of Victor's behavior. I don't know if I've made that clear. I DO. BUT...I can't give up on him yet. AND...I think all of this should be over (all sides...all sides should take a look at themselves). What a soap opera! We all love Internet World, huh? And the drama! My goodness...look at the traffic, guys. *honks horn* GET OUTTA MY WAY!

(BTW: Thanks, but I think I'll skip out on picturing Ange and Vic's beastial sex. RAWR. LOL!)

[william.scherk]

. . .

Then came the hacker.

. . .

Of course I fully agree about Barbara's enormous kindness of spirit.

Yikes! I appreciate the public correction of my balletomania. I have withdrawn the randt/post to the ill-read Scherk Blog where I will correct it after I wash my hair. Thanks. Oops. I apologize, not necessarily in that order, Emperor.

To the Archives, with swords! If were possible to offer an O-inflected blessing or to offer deep honour and respect with a score bytes of alphanumeric ephemera, I would say, Bless you, Barbara, and you would say, Amen. And both down our holes we go.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Here is a post of mine from the recently created "Garbage Pile" section for general awareness.

Is there any way that you can bulk-insert a notice at the beginning of each of Victor's posts which would warn readers that Victor has been caught in multiple instances of plagiarism, and that any of his posts could include content stolen from others?

Jonathan,

My dear darling Kitten supplied the solution. The following text is now in Pross's signature line and is present on all of his posts.

NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR: This poster was banned for repeated plagiary. Because of the sheer volume of his posts, the present one may contain plagiarism that is unknown to us. Please report any plagiarized text you find so we can edit the post.

Kat and I also moved him from "Canceled" category to "Banned." Now he cannot log on or use any OL features at all. He can use the forum as a normal lurker (or if he tries to use an alias). Ironically, he was originally consigned to "Canceled" so as to not call attention to the issue. That was before we were aware of the extent of the problem.

Some fancy dollar signs appeared under his name with the edit. I will work on trying to get rid of them.

This solution has caused me some short-term comfort since I am going to travel with Kitten to LA in a couple of days and will not be too active for about a week.

I will still keep the Garbage Pile. I like this idea and some threads definitely belong in it, but now, there is no need to put major discussions here or graft off parts of them.

Michael

[CNA]

Since I have not been to OL nor have I read any other O'ist online message boards in quite some time, I was informed today as to what was going on here. I have not read all the posts contained in this thread so this won't be addressed to anyone in particular. I'm still unsure as to what to say. First off, the Bloom thread and what went on was made very public. Everyone has a right to their opinion. If you want to trash it, then trash it. If not, then don't. If you want to read it, then read it. If not, don't read it. It's your choice. It had a beginning, a middle, but no end that will be posted on OL. I am sure many here will be grateful for that which I do understand.

What is going on now is one of the reasons why I no longer have an interest in the online O'ist community. I do understand all the bashing when it comes to Victor and his choices and behavior and he should be judged accordingly. But I do not appreciate personal attacks towards me when I have done nothing wrong. I am not to blame for Victor's behavior nor should I be judged or labeled for his behavior. Victor knows full well what he is doing and why he is doing it. He knows it is wrong. I know it is wrong. You know it is wrong. So I do NOT condone his choices and actions in the least bit. It heavily goes against what I personally believe in. If anyone has wondered why I didn't come out and post a defense in support of him, it is because I cannot provide a rational defense for something I know to be wrong. I cannot defend privately or publicly anyone, be it a friend, family member, or lover who I know to be guilty. It heavily goes against my convictions and I cannot betray and contradict what I personally value. Victor knows he is guilty. He has admitted it to me. He has admitted it on OL in public that he was guilty but still continued on with his behavior. We have talked about his behavior because obviously it is an issue. Unfortunately I have been labeled because of his behavior. I am upset that I have been labeled unjustly and personally attacked due to his behavior, behavior that is not mine. And this is due to the fact of my close ties with him. Victor is suffering the consequences of his actions now and should do so accordingly because he knows what he did was wrong. We all know what he did was wrong. It is cause and effect.

It is unfortunate that so much of this has come to a nasty end. No one should be apologizing for his behavior. I know I am not nor should anybody else nor should there be any more excuses. It is what it is. When Victor left SOLO and came to OL, the extent of the plagiaries and how deep it ran was not known. It seemed to many that it was a few infractions here and there and that was the only evidence at hand. So because of this, some gave Victor the benefit of the doubt and that he was genuine. That it would not happen again but it still continued. Since joining OL, his behavior became more readily apparent, more evidence was produced. It should have ended there. You can only give so many second chances, you can only turn a blind eye for so long before the problem becomes too great and reality smacks you in the face. Unfortunately a few are now having to clean up the mess that was left behind by Victor's choices and actions. There should be no apoligizing by anyone who is not Victor. The only person who should be apologizing is him. No one should be too hard on themselves or upset with themselves because no one knew then the full extent of the problem. But it is evident now how deep it ran.

Angie

Edited June 29, 2007 by CNA

[Brant Gaede]

What will it take for this to end?

More than 2/3s of this forum's activity has to do with Victor.

I talk to Victor outside of this forum, and consider him a friend. I may disagree with him on some issues, but hey, his beliefs and values are his alone, and I cannot judge him for them.

Please people.

Shut the hell up about this.

I know you are worried about Victor, but, regretfully, there is nothing to worry about. His is a fulminating condition. He is being sandblasted by reality. He hoisted all the weight that is crashing down on his head and the only one who is in position to stay it--Victor--can't. My 92 year-old mother will soon die. Today, for the first time in my life she looked at me but didn't know who I was. But even now she is a completely genuine person. That makes it hurt even more. I can't shed a tear for the fraud, no matter what. You see, Mitchell, there are no beliefs and values that are Victor's. We can't hurt him. We can only hurt ourselves by sanctioning what he did.

--Brant

Edited June 29, 2007 by Brant Gaede

[Aeaeae]

Hello everyone,

As my first post here, it's rather awkward to do it right on this thread. This has nothing to do with the current... whatever. But I figure everyone could use a little healthy distraction now, so...

I'ved lurked here occasionally, as I do with other objectivist sites. Most of my lurking here was when this site was new. Then I stopped when it appeared the site went down, only to resume my lurking habits recently. I'ved just read Michaels's description of a hacker (?) and a lost thread. Perhaps there were other threads that were lost (?)

I'm writing this since I have printouts (in PDF) of some threads at that time. I printed them from my browser cache when OL was down, so I could read them later without having to go to the site. Packrat that I am, they're still on my hard disk. I think the Apology Thread is one of those threads. I don't know which ones were lost and which ones restored, so I'm just going to list them.

God Gene

3 quick and easy ways to nip reason in the bud!

An Apology to Barbara Branden (I think this is the one mentioned above)

Big Numbers

David Kelley Biography

Different ways of thinking

Dragonfly

full of the holy spirit

Hear all Evil. See all Evil. Speak all Evil.

In Attempted Praise of Objectivist Turkey

Introducing the David Kelley Corner

Rational Men Must Be Tolerant of Others

Review of Ayn Rand Contra Human Nature

SOLO is going insane

The Appeal of Orthodoxy

The Humor of Ayn Rand (long thread)

The Philosophy of History: On Bias

why did she choose ayn rand?

If Michael wants, I'll send him a zip file of this threads.

As far as objectivist sites go, this one's remarkable for it's civility (for the most part). I hope it remains that way, though the navigation around here can use some improvement, goddammit!!!

Nothing on this post is plagiary, as far as I know.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Aeaeae,

Welcome to OL.

I deleted your account the first time because I thought you were a bot. (Your pseudonym is typical of bot programs.) Sorry.

Thank you very much for your offer. I would greatly appreciate a zip file of all of these threads. Even on threads that were reconstructed, sometimes posts were lost, so I would love to go through all that material, check to see what is missing and put it up.

My email is:

mikellyusabr@yahoo.com

Once again, thank you.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

On the lighter and more spiritual side, I found the following poem on the Author's Den site. The link to the poem's page (with image and comments) is given in the title.

Plagiarism Addiction

by Sara Coslett

Saturday, June 19, 2004

The plagiarist looks at the empty page

intensely searching for some words

to share with their fans.

Their head is filled with ideas;

joys, anguish, grief

all mingling into an indistinguishable mass.

Unable to sort out the words

and tired of imitating their favorite musical performers,

they turn to an inspirational tape;

a little mind food.

The words come at them in rapid succession.

The plagiarist writes them down

frantically stopping the tape, time and after time,

trying to make sure they get it all onto the page.

When the plagiarist finds a word they do not understand

they substitute for one that sounds almost the same,

but has an entirely different meaning.

No matter, the empty page is now full;

the item posted to their fans;

and the crowd cheers.

All are happy,

right?

Copyright © 2004 Sara Coslett

Despite the singular/plural pronoun issue (which bugs me in general), this is great food for thought and a perfect rendering of facets of what went on here.

Michael

[BAMF]

^I didn't like that as a poem, but thought it was a good description of 'plagiarism addiction'.

Aeaeae, welcome aboard! Yes, we sure could use a 'healthy distration'.

[Barbara Branden]

Angie, I haven't seen anyone attacking you or blaming you for Victor's behavior. On the contrary, there have been expressions of sympathy toward you because Victor tried to give you, as well as all of us, a false picture of himself. This whole episode has to be terribly painful for you.

I want to tell you that I admire you for facing and acknowledging Victor's wrongdong as you have done in your post..

Barbara

[Aeaeae]

Email sent.

So that was the problem with the registration. Apology accepted. But you owe me a few bucks, as I have to repair one of my cybernetic wrist joints for the virtual-carpal-tunnel-syndrome I got while repeatedly clicking "Log In." :geek:

Digitally signed,

I, Turing Machine

[CNA]

Angie, I haven't seen anyone attacking you or blaming you for Victor's behavior. On the contrary, there have been expressions of sympathy toward you because Victor tried to give you, as well as all of us, a false picture of himself.This whole episode has to be terribly painful for you.

I want to tell you that I admire you for facing and acknowledging Victor's wrongdong as you have done in your post..

Barbara

Thank you, Barbara

Angie

[BAMF]

Email sent.

So that was the problem with the registration. Apology accepted. But you owe me a few bucks, as I have to repair one of my cybernetic wrist joints for the virtual-carpal-tunnel-syndrome I got while repeatedly clicking "Log In." :geek:

Digitally signed,

I, Turing Machine

Thank God. Somebody funny to lighten this place up. Do you have a real name?

[Aeaeae]

You can call me Victor. Oh wait, that's taken already.

Aeaeae would be fine though. I'll reserve my rights to anonymity until such time as I judge it proper to reveal the grand unpronouncable, inutterable, mortally wounding, magnificence that is my name; for such monumental purposes as spewing recycled bile across objectivist cyberspace, nuking Iran, killing babies, and hyperventilating over passionate critics...

On second thought, I'll just go back to lurk-mode. It's bad to send a robot to do a clown's job.

Thanks for the welcome!

[BAMF]

Aw, LOL. Don't go into lurk mode! Stick around. To me, you are a welcome addition. Ah, I suppose I'll have to stick with Aeaeae for now. At least I can make Greek jokes.