The PRESTIGE

[John Dailey]

~ Really interesting as to how Tesla and Edison got historically used as the 'necessary' backdrop to this (and, they WERE historical competitors for populace-acceptance of their differing applications of electricity) rivalry of magicians, and, how the apparent 'innocent' was a budding evil-growing one whilst the apparent 'bad' guy was an innocent (good story/screen editing...I think.) --- B-u-t, did Borden (Bale) allow his 'twin' to be executed, or...did I miss something?

LLAP

J:D

[Danneskjold]

This was one of my FAVORITE movies.

I don't know if they were twins or copies, but effectively they were neither. They both lived two sides of two lives. It doesn't tell you who is who, but it really doesn't matter. The operative difference between the two is who they love, the wife or whoever Scarlett Johanson is playing.

Amazing movie. Amazing.

[John Dailey]

Jeff:

~ Sorry; I disagree. It DOES 'matter', to *me* anyway, re its worth as watching a 2nd (or more, as some reviewers suggest is necessary) time. It may be totally coherent...upon a 4th watching. Should such be necessary for a 'worthwhile' story? I think not. A 'good' story can be appreciated upon a 2nd (or more) reading/watching; but, such being 'necessary' for a consumer to coherentize/understand an apparently purposefully-convoluted style of presenting a fascinating rivalry is...boringly artificial, however 'cleverly' constructed. Byzantine labyrinths for their own sake is not for art-appreciators; it's for puzzle-lovers. --- I am both, B-U-T, I care not for the latter overriding the former, even in Escher. Puzzle-presentation CAN be artfully done; but in this movie, it was not, that I can see. The 'puzzle' (I questioned about) seems to be what the movie is about...maybe with the point of Lewis Carroll's ALICE IN WONDERLAND ending (unanswered) riddle about "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" I.E: no answer. I hate that kinda stuff.

LLAP

J:D

[Danneskjold]

Maybe it's just that I appreciated the main character(s) so much because of their utter devotion to what they love (illusion), and how I can relate to them because of my own (baseball).

[John Dailey]

~ Ah-h-h, well, to specify: Angier (Jackman) clearly was able to create a clone which ('whom'?) he immediately killed...unsure why, but, generalized fear of what he wished for, I guess. N-o-w, in (supposedly) framing Borden (Bale), does that means that Angier did not die. Ergo, he created a new clone? --- If so, as seems implied (or at least hinted), then was it the clone that fell into the tank (meaning Angier pulled one on Borden AND his own new clone), or, Angier himself, assuming that his clone would carry on the whole public act (I would were I the clone: same memories/values/hate/etc). Still if so, then, if the latter, was 'cloning' considered by the writer (hence Angier) as a way of re-incarnating oneself (ie: clones aren't 'twin' separate persons)? Only way Borden could be considered 'framed' for either case. --- If not, then, what happened?

~ Worse: which or what ever, the 'evil' one got away with murder, no?

LLAP

J:D

[Danneskjold]

Angier, in order to pull off his magic trick, stepped onto the machine which created a new clone of him (whether it teleported him elsewhere and replaced him with the clone or teleported the clone elsewhere is a mystery that he himself does not know). One of the created Angiers dropped into a box filled with water (this was done over and over again) the other popped up on the other side of the auditorium at which point he presented himself for the prestige (last phase of any magic trick). It just so happened that one time Borden walked in on the trick in time to see one version of Angier fall into the water filled tank meant to kill him (as I said this was how the trick worked). Because he was found in the same room as the dead body, he was prosecuted for murder as whatever version of Angier went into hiding as Lord Kurdlow (the guy buying back all his [own] old tricks).

Meanwhile, one version of Borden was hung (I'm not sure where the other originated although it must either be twins or clones). The other version of Borden, who while one was in jail was always dressed up as his assistant (the one who never talked because his voice sounded the same as the other Borden and talking would give him away, they took turns being one or the other), showed up in Angier (now Lord Kurdlow)'s basement and killed him. The thing is that there was only one of him then (due to the fact that he quit cloning himself and dropping one version of himself to drown in a water-filled tank). So, as it ends up, one of the Bordens is still alive, but none of the Angier's were still alive.

[John Dailey]

Jeff:

~ CRAP!

~ NOW you got me more confused than I was! 'Sfaras*I*knew, Borden never got the successful 'cloning' machine! It was Angiers that finally got it (so I thought). Regardless, when you talk of 'versions' of Angiers, well, that was part of my original question! Was it *him* (as, 'original') who was, in the end, slowly and sadistically throwing hints to the imprisoned Borden about what had happened, or...? Were they both dead and it was just their clones ending the feud? Cripes!

~ Thanx a F***n' lot!

~ Now I (assuming a real 'coherency' in the story) gotta go rent the g*****n thing again (and the fucker's 3-hrs long!). --- My 13-yr old says he understands it all, but I understand HIS explanation as well as I understand YOURS.

LLAP

J:D

Edited March 4, 2007 by John Dailey

[Danneskjold]

When they were talking at the very end of the movie, Angier says that he stepped onto that platform every time not knowing whether it would be him or his clone that lived to see another day. So, seeing as the characters themselves don't know, neither do we.

Also, if you remember Borden was the one that directed Angier towards Tesla. So I don't know if he got a clone, or maybe it was a twin. Not really sure, at the same time, not significant to the story line. I suspect that it was a brother not a clone for the sole reason that, if I remember correctly, the time when Angier saw Borden at Tesla's science convention came after Borden pulled the stunt with his wife to be where she locked him outside his room then he showed up in it.

The movie still ties together quite nicely. I like it.

[John Dailey]

~ Uh-h, so, that means that Angiers didn't kill his next clones ('till the water-tank; or, was that vice-versa?) or, Tesla really only had to duplicate (clone?) the original machine he gave Borden, ummm...or....something was 'wrong' with all those cats and hats (shades of Dr. Seuss!) in the field and therefore...uh...

~ Damn! Thanx again! (Unfortunately, it DOES 'matter' to me re who did what, especially in clone-stories. Sigh...)

LLAP

J:D

[reason.on]

Thought these may be of interest...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige (The Novel)

Although never explicitly revealed, it seems probable that the secret of The Transported Man is that Borden, all his life, has been two people; his trick involves extreme use of a twin brother as a double, to the extent that they both live the same life. This is suggested early in the novel when, during Alfred Borden's first person explanation he appears to be talking to himself. We might think that he is talking to his double by using their diary as a medium (presumably, they couldn't meet without revealing their secret), but that both are using the first-person, even when speaking of each other (eg. "I went while I stayed...").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_%28film%29 (The Film)

Cutter goes with Angier to the abandoned building where the replicants in their water tanks are hidden and helps him store the teleportation machine. After learning of the dead, replicated Angiers, Cutter leaves in disgust, silently acknowledging the arrival of Borden. Angier is ambushed by a gunshot from the dark. Borden appears and reveals that he and "Fallon" were twins who lived as a single individual, alternating lives as needed: one twin loved Sarah, the other Olivia. For the original illusion, a twin acted as the double. They were so committed to the illusion that they amputated the other twin's fingers to match his brother's injury; they also suffered the loss of Sarah as a result of their dedication to the illusion. Similarly, flashbacks recount (only to the audience) Angier's method: that each time he disappeared during his illusion, he fell into a locked tank and drowned, and the machine created a duplicate who teleported to the balcony and basked in the applause. Before leaving, Borden looks back at the aisles of tanks and then leaves Angier to die as a fire begins to consume the building. Borden reunites with his daughter.

RCR

[Danneskjold]

John, sometimes you have to let go of the minor details to see the big picture in a movie like this one.

[John Dailey]

RCR:

~ Thanx. Guess I should've read the book...not '1st', but 'period.' More coherency there in your wiki-refs (but, raises other, less primary, questions [sigh...]) than I could see in the movie. I think Nolan did a bad job (his other movies nwst) of presenting coherently Priest's story.

Jeff:

~ For me, 'details' which are distractingly omitted (ie: question-raising) are precisely what detract (for me) from seeing the therefore unintegrateable supposedly-intended 'big picture.' Such details I do not find to be 'minor', even if I know what the author/screenplay/'artist'...intends. --- In this case, I still don't, other than the life-worthlessness of allowing consuming obsession about revenge to center a life around, ostensibly using one's 'work' as an rationalized excuse.

LLAP

J:D

P.S: 'Obsessive' moi, however...I'll still probably re-rent this...thing.

Edited March 6, 2007 by John Dailey

[John Dailey]

Addendum:

~ If Borden (Bale) was always working with a 'twin' (surely 'hidden' in the movie!) then I'm more confused as to why (as 'hinted' in the movie!) he ever went to Tesla. Like, for what? His twin-brother died...off-stage...somehow, somewhere, somewhen?

~ I just don't get the 'big picture' I guess; too many 'small pictures' mis-directing the very (if any) point of the whole...ACT; nm regarding 'clone's as re-incarnated selves (a dumb presumption, right off the bat!)

~ "Why is a raven like a writing desk?"

LLAP

J:D