Royce Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) To all, I say greetings. This may not be a very dramatic introduction, but it serves it's purpose.Just a lil about me:I'm Australian, I enjoy holding hands and long walks on the beach.It should be known that I am not an Objectivist. My political beliefs could be called rather Libertarian. Though specifically I'm an Anarchist. Precisely I'm somewhere between Individualist Anarchism and Free Market Anarchism. I tend to drift between the two.Religously I'm an Agnostic. Anyway, rather a short introduction. If you have any questions, do ask. Edited January 19, 2007 by Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danneskjold Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 This is my buddy. I dragged him over here from the history forum. (He joined of his own free will, don't worry)Great guy. You'll like him. I'm still trying to figure out why "Individualist Anarchism" and "Free Market Anarchism" are apparently mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royce Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 I'm still trying to figure out why "Individualist Anarchism" and "Free Market Anarchism" are apparently mutually exclusive.Something to do with Mutualism, a concept I still can't grasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danneskjold Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Well no worries my friend. We're the smarter end of the statists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Grieb Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) Royce; Who are you holding hands with? One could hold one's own hand or hopefully someone elses. All that aside Welcome! Edited January 19, 2007 by Chris Grieb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Grieb Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Royce; Are you the only individualist in Australia? I know you never rebelled against the crown but I always thought Australia had more possibilities. You will now send a post which shatters all these illusions. Since Jeff recruited you are you as young as he is. Are the beaches great in Australia? The pictures I've seen suggest they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Royce,Welcome to OL. I hope you like it here.As you know, Objectivism holds for a limited government—one with a monopoly on the use of force, essentially limited to protecting well-defined individual rights.This seems to be a contradiction, but it is not. It depends on your view of the nature of man. Throughout history on up to today, human beings have grouped and established leaders to follow. There is no reason to think that this characteristic of the species will go away any time soon. As power tends to corrupt a person, some of these groups will become thuggish and/or criminal, depending on their leaders. There will always be gangs somewhere trying to dominate others by force. These gangs can take the form of street gangs on up to entire nations.Individuals need protection against them. Enter a government limited and accountable under law, with a system of checks and balances against any one person or group acquiring so much power they become tyrants. This is the only kind of organization that can exercise force objectively. All others depend on the personality of the leaders. Without checks and balances, any leader can start to use force arbitrarily. Even with checks and balances, it is tough. But nothing better has yet been devised that works.This is only a start and we can take a discussion of anarchism to another thread.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royce Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Welcome to OL. I hope you like it here.All that aside Welcome!Thank you both.Royce; Who are you holding hands with? One could hold one's own hand or hopefully someone elses. All that aside Welcome!Oh come now, do we have to go analyse a perfectly irrelevant comedic statement.Royce; Are you the only individualist in Australia? I know you never rebelled against the crown but I always thought Australia had more possibilities. You will now send a post which shatters all these illusions. Since Jeff recruited you are you as young as he is. Are the beaches great in Australia? The pictures I've seen suggest they arIronically enough yes, I'm the exact age as Jeff - to the day. Spooky coincidence. As for rebelling against the crown, if we had wanted to we could have left the Commonwealth with a referendum held some time ago. Unfortunately a majority voted against leaving the commonwealth. Which means I must accept said queen, despite being politically, morally and intellectually against such a construct. A little off topic but worth a mention, the Australian Government seems to have some innate desire for security as such buddies up with the greatest powers of the time. After Britain retreated in WWII, Australia strengthened ties with America and since then we've been converting from a mostly British influence to an American.Though I am far from a beach person (I'm more of a city-goer), most beaches in Australia are in pristine condition. If you're brave and willing to risk getting stranded in the wilderness there are some absolute pristine beaches along the North West coast. One in particular is pristine, and completely untouched - no tourists go there. Unfortunately a mining company wanted to rip it up because it sits of a large supply of oil.This seems to be a contradiction, but it is not. It depends on your view of the nature of man.Before you start understand that I do not have some Utopian vision of society and nor am I here to spark some revolution. Far from it. Coercion will always exist.power tends to corrupt a person, some of these groups will become thuggish and/or criminal, depending on their leaders. There will always be gangs somewhere trying to dominate others by force. These gangs can take the form of street gangs on up to entire nations.Individuals need protection against them. Enter a governmentThis is one instance I cannot agree with Objectivists or minarchists. Here is where I find the contradiction. Whether or not a government is restricted I see no difference between that and a regular government. You are trying to protect against one gang by creating and institutionalising another thuggish gang. I feel that individuals are perfectly able to solve their problems themselves. Bad solutions to problems will not be repeated, good solutions will be. How they go about this I don't know, but then Anarchists never pretend to have all the answers. Unless of course you're drawn into the whole ANCAP/ANSOC debate (free choice of profanity). In short, if you wish to install an Objectivist government, then go for it. But if you try to stop me from not participating then I am against you.Honestly Michael, I feel that a conversation between us will ultimately result in you having reinforced your observation that Anarchists are evil, and reinforcing my observation that you are statist. Edited January 20, 2007 by Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Honestly Michael, I feel that a conversation between us will ultimately result in you having reinforced your observation that Anarchists are evil, and reinforcing my observation that you are statist.Say what? Where did I ever observe that?Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royce Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Say what? Where did I ever observe that?I don't mean to insult - far from it. It comes from previous discussions with other Objectivists - one which Jeff is unaware off. It was my assumption that Anarchism was generally and stereotypically viewed as 'subjective' and therefore evil. On the same note it is a stereotype that Anarchists label everyone else statist, however true that may be. Edited January 20, 2007 by Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danneskjold Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 You've been cheating on me? :cry: Royce, debate before you assume we'll label you as "subjective". I don't think I ever did. I labeled some of your definitions as subjective, but not your system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royce Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Royce, debate before you assume we'll label you as "subjective". I don't think I ever did. I labeled some of your definitions as subjective, but not your system.Though it did descend into rants and rhetoric. And I apologise forum wide if anyone takes offense. I had hoped it would be more subtle humour. Pessimistic subtle humour perhaps, but subtle humour none the less! Edited January 20, 2007 by Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 It was my assumption that Anarchism was generally and stereotypically viewed as 'subjective' and therefore evil. On the same note it is a stereotype that Anarchists label everyone else statist, however true that may be.Over here, most members tend to use their own minds as individuals, not stereotypes.Stalin was evil. Hitler was evil. Saddam Hussein was evil.Those who hold reason, freedom and individual rights as high values are not evil.It's OK to disagree.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danneskjold Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Can I get an AMEN?Oh crap, now I'm a mystic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Grieb Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 Royce; Yes; I was being silly! Do you do any surfing? I want to hear about education and high schools in Australia along with life in general there. I went through an anarchist period and I sometimes feel very anarchist when I read of the latest evil thing government has done. Royce Welcome to Objectivist Living to one of the youngest people on the forum. from one of the oldest. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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